Landlord Keeping Deposit Over Untidy Garden

[TheSlump]

Can a Landlord keep a deposit for an untidy garden when there is no clause in the Tenancy agreement mentioning it?

Just wondering what the position on this is?

Thanks in advance for anyone who knows.

[pootle]

Double check your tenancy agreement for exact wording. Even if it does cover the garden in a roundabout way keeping the whole deposit sounds a little excessive. I guess it depends on how untidy the garden is. If it is completely overgrown then it could well cost them big bucks to have a gardener come and sort it out. How about a few more details?

Edited August 19, 2007 by ulster_exile

[TheSlump]

Thanks for the reply.

I can't find even any vague mention of the garden in the tenancy agreement.

The lawns will be cut etc but the LL expects shrubs and trees to be cut and pruned excessively. It's more an overabundant mass of garden plants than weeds, the last tenants over planted the garden and it's been a nightmare to keep. I'm just wondering if an LL can keep a deposit if the garden happens not to be in their style ie heavily pruned and strictly ordered.

Edited August 19, 2007 by TheSlump

[Te Mata]

Thanks for the reply.

I can't find even any vague mention of the garden in the tenancy agreement.

The lawns will be cut etc but the LL expects shrubs and trees to be cut and pruned excessively. It's more an overabundant mass of garden plants than weeds, the last tenants over planted the garden and it's been a nightmare to keep. I'm just wondering if an LL can keep a deposit if the garden happens not to be in their style ie heavily pruned and strictly ordered.

Don't **** around. Presuming there is no inventory, (it doesn't sound like i) he's ****ed. Just take him straight to small claims courts. Plenty of threads here on that.

[Gorgeous George]

I like to be reasonable in my dealings with other people.

You should leave the garden in the condition that you took it on. If the garden was not to your taste you should have rented somewhere else or had it expicitly removed from the contract.

Hopefully the TDS will avoid problems like this in the future.

GG

[TheSlump]

I like to be reasonable in my dealings with other people.

You should leave the garden in the condition that you took it on. If the garden was not to your taste you should have rented somewhere else or had it expicitly removed from the contract.

Hopefully the TDS will avoid problems like this in the future.

GG

I get your point, but the LL has hardly been reasonable in neglecting the house for 4 years with 0 repairs done for the last 3 of them( not exaggerating) while putting the rent up 25% in the last 2 years. The house has deteriorated considerably since we took it on with the LL ignoring potential safety problems even, hence us leaving, so I don't feel too bad about not keeping the garden up 100%, and as I said there's nothing actually in the contract specifying anything about the garden, let alone what permitted size shrubs and bushes grow to or where garden plants should or shouldn't be allowed to grow.

Also considerable amounts of garden fencing blew down over the last 12 months never to be replacd by the LL. When we took the garden on it was fenced so it's not exactly as we took the house on anyway

Edited August 19, 2007 by TheSlump

[Gorgeous George]

Good luck in your quest.

I feel the LL holds all the cards (i.e., your deposit) but you may get lucky in the small claims court.

GG

[Te Mata]

Good luck in your quest.

I feel the LL holds all the cards (i.e., your deposit) but you may get lucky in the small claims court.

GG

Without an inventory, the tenant holds all the cards.

Sue him for your deposit.

[Guest muttley]

Good luck in your quest.

I feel the LL holds all the cards (i.e., your deposit) but you may get lucky in the small claims court.

GG

My LL witheld £50 because the lawn was "patchy" when we left. The patches were in fact where the lawn had been laid incorrectly when we moved in. The Small Claims Court had no hesitation in ordering the LL to repay the £50 (along with another £270 he had witheld). Our tenancy agreement stated that we had to mow the lawn and keep the garden tidy, but the judge ruled that we couldn't be responsible for the grass dying.

I think you've got a great chance of winning in the SCC. Remember, the burden of proof lies with the LL. He has to show why he is witholding the amount that he is. If it doesn't say anything in the tenancy agreement then I don't see how he can justify keeping a penny.

In my student days I rented a house where the garden was a tip when we moved in and was the same when we moved out. We just used the garden for keeping the bins and our bikes in. We got our full deposit back.

[pootle]

Thanks for the reply.

I can't find even any vague mention of the garden in the tenancy agreement.

The lawns will be cut etc but the LL expects shrubs and trees to be cut and pruned excessively. It's more an overabundant mass of garden plants than weeds, the last tenants over planted the garden and it's been a nightmare to keep. I'm just wondering if an LL can keep a deposit if the garden happens not to be in their style ie heavily pruned and strictly ordered.

LL doesn't have a leg to stand on then. Do a search on here for advice on the small claim courts. I'm not an expert on them or the process, but I would say that you would get your deposit back. In fact if he is withholding the whole deposit (???) then this would be seen as unreasonable by the court even if they thought that a small deduction might be reasonable (which in the absence of tenancy agreement clauses they shouldn't).

Good luck!

[Imp]

Don't forget, the deposit was yours, is yours and remains yours until you agree to the landlord using it. By not returning it the landlord is taking money from you. The landlord has to demonstrate to the court why you should pay him the money. That is why the burden of proof is on him. He has to prove he has carried out a service for you - i.e. bringing the condition of the property back to how it was before you moved in.

You, however, are required to hand the property back to the landlord in the same condition as when you moved in, less fair wear and tear. The landlord is able to get you to do this, first by using the deposit, and then if the costs exceed the deposit, by billing you for additional work.

I guess the garden is subjective. If you kept the weeds down and mowed the garden, then I don't see how you can reasonably be charged for the plants growing. But if you didn't keep the weeds down and didn't mow the garden, you could be charged the actual cost for the gardener to sort this out. Don't forget to ask for a receipt for all charges against the deposit.

good luck

[Gorgeous George]

Look at it this way.

If you put the garden right, your LL will not be able to claim it against his tax. The new tenants will benefit from a tidy garden just as you did.

If you don't put it right, your LL may find other ways to get even.

Is there a website that records SCC decisions?

I'm so pleased that the TDS has been imposed. They will have to deal with problems like this free of charge.

GG

[TheSlump]

.

I guess the garden is subjective. If you kept the weeds down and mowed the garden, then I don't see how you can reasonably be charged for the plants growing. But if you didn't keep the weeds down and didn't mow the garden, you could be charged the actual cost for the gardener to sort this out. Don't forget to ask for a receipt for all charges against the deposit.

good luck

Is this the case even if the LL bought a cheap £1.50 Tenancy agreement from WH Smith (which we had to pay for) that makes no mention at all in any roundabout way to maintaining the garden?

I had intended to mow the lawn (which has always been mown regularily) and tidy up a bit but don't expect to have to radically re-landscape the garden at the last minute after 4 years of no complaint.

[Guest happy?]

Is this the case even if the LL bought a cheap £1.50 Tenancy agreement from WH Smith (which we had to pay for) that makes no mention at all in any roundabout way to maintaining the garden?

I had intended to mow the lawn (which has always been mown regularily) and tidy up a bit but don't expect to have to radically re-landscape the garden at the last minute after 4 years of no complaint.

It's my guess that the court would view the garden as part of the property. You had the amenity of it during the tenancy and the court would in my view expect you to keep it tidy to a reasonable standard. If the landlord has to pay someone to bring it back to the standard it was at the start of your tenancy then the court will view this as a justified disbursement which can be withheld from the deposit. The court would not permit them to keep the whole deposit but the money paid-out to bring it back up to its original state.

If this seems unfair look at it from the other perspective. Imagine renting a property with a garden which the landlord then filled with rubbish so that you couldn't use it. The court would rightly conclude that they had not provided you with the full use of the property and would require the landlord to recompense you for your loss.

You can get impartial legal advice from the CAB.

[southsea13]

It's my guess that the court would view the garden as part of the property. You had the amenity of it during the tenancy and the court would in my view expect you to keep it tidy to a reasonable standard. If the landlord has to pay someone to bring it back to the standard it was at the start of your tenancy then the court will view this as a justified disbursement which can be withheld from the deposit. The court would not permit them to keep the whole deposit but the money paid-out to bring it back up to its original state.

If this seems unfair look at it from the other perspective. Imagine renting a property with a garden which the landlord then filled with rubbish so that you couldn't use it. The court would rightly conclude that they had not provided you with the full use of the property and would require the landlord to recompense you for your loss.

You can get impartial legal advice from the CAB.

The landlord`s trying it on - do not bother looking at it from his side. Just make sure the garden is tidy to a reasonable standard then get your money back.

[bambam]

It's my guess that the court would view the garden as part of the property. You had the amenity of it during the tenancy and the court would in my view expect you to keep it tidy to a reasonable standard. If the landlord has to pay someone to bring it back to the standard it was at the start of your tenancy then the court will view this as a justified disbursement which can be withheld from the deposit. The court would not permit them to keep the whole deposit but the money paid-out to bring it back up to its original state.

If this seems unfair look at it from the other perspective. Imagine renting a property with a garden which the landlord then filled with rubbish so that you couldn't use it. The court would rightly conclude that they had not provided you with the full use of the property and would require the landlord to recompense you for your loss.

Nope, wrong, wrong, wrong all wrong.

The landlord should have engaged the service of a professional inventory clerk to record the state of the garden before the tenancy commenced.

Secondly the tenancy agreement should provide as to whose responsibility it is to maintain it. For instance it's usual that tenants have to clean internal windows, but external windows are the responsibility of the landlord (given that they require specialist equipment and skills, i.e.a professional window cleaner). Similarly with a garden: anyone can mow a lawn, but tree pruning is a fairly specialised skill. Absent in any clause in the contract, it's hard to imply for one.

But, fundamentally, the most important thing is:

NO inventory check was undertaken, so it is NOT possible to state what the condition of the garden was when you moved in, it could have been the most overgrown jungle imaginable.

Therefore the landlord has not get a leg to stand on.

Please all of you forget the pious b0llocks about being 'fair' to the landlord, the correct response to this situation is a letter as follows:

Dear Landlord,

Reference the deposit on 1 Acacia Gardens withheld of £500 in respect of alleged deterioration of the garden at the property, please be advised that this is unlawful and I will be instituting legal proceedings for recovery if I do not receive payment in full within 14 days.

I dispute that the garden is in worse condition than before the tenancy began, and as no inventory check or statement of condition was completed before the tenancy began, it would be impossible to establish in court whether it had deteriorated or not. As the burden of proof is upon you as the one seeking to charge me to establish this, and there is no way for you to do so, you will undoubtedly lose in court. There is not, in any case, any contractual provision for the tenant to maintain the garden, and to what extent and standard, so your legal case is hopeless.

Accordingly I advise you to send the full amount owed by return post to avoid unnecessary legal action, which will be instituted 14 days from the date of this letter.

Yours truly,

Tenant

This serves two useful purposes:

1. stops any more wasted time dealing with an arsey landlord

2. ensures that he behaves like the professional businessman he is supposed to be and

(a) uses a proper tenancy agreement

( uses a proper inventory checking service that is fair to both landlord and tenant.

Buy-to-let is a business like any other, designed to make the owner wealthy, it is not done as a favour, and in dealing with it you should also behave professionally and in accordance with the law. All this guff about fairness is just stupid - everyone's got their own opinions about what is fair, that's why we have the law, and if that is followed, there is no chance of ambiguity or confusion.

[TheSlump]

Thanks to everyone for their advice, particularily BamBam .I manged to get free legal advice from a local housing solicitor, telling her the situation as it stands, she laughed and said the LL was trying it on, hadn't a case and not to worry.

One thing I dug up on the internet during the course of this is that it seems under the new TDS if a landlord doesn't use the scheme or fails to notify you in writing within 14 days you are entitled to have your deposit returned AND the LL loses the right to give the Tenant 2 months notice, in effect it becomes a secure Tenancy.

I don't know if this has been widely known by everyone except me (until recently) or if anyone can confirm that this is indeed the case.

[Gorgeous George]

One thing I dug up on the internet during the course of this is that it seems under the new TDS if a landlord doesn't use the scheme or fails to notify you in writing within 14 days you are entitled to have your deposit returned AND the LL loses the right to give the Tenant 2 months notice, in effect it becomes a secure Tenancy.

I don't know if this has been widely known by everyone except me (until recently) or if anyone can confirm that this is indeed the case.

I'm not sure how this would sit in the eyes of the mortgage lender. It would be interesting to see if any courts upheld such punitive and unjustified measures.

Many LLs just won't bother taking a deposit.

GG

Edited August 21, 2007 by Gorgeous George

[TheSlump]

I'm not sure how this would sit in the eyes of the mortgage lender. It would be interesting to see if any courts upheld such punitive and unjustified measures.

Many LLs just won't bother taking a deposit.

GG

Not unjustified from the Tenants' perspective.

This law has been put in place because the legislaters recognise that too many LL are crooks and habitually steal Tenant's deposit money, it is punitive because the new rules are an effective means of detering all too common theft of other people's money.

Now that it has been established in law that too many LL are crooks and not to be trusted I suspect there may be more similar penalties for infringements by LL.

Is Gorgeous George a LL or connected with them by any chance?

Edited August 22, 2007 by TheSlump

[Te Mata]

I'm not sure how this would sit in the eyes of the mortgage lender. It would be interesting to see if any courts upheld such punitive and unjustified measures.

Many LLs just won't bother taking a deposit.

GG

The courts have no choice but to uphold the measures as they are L A W Law! They are not at all unjustified as The Slump has said, they are necessary in light of the habitual unjustified withholding of entire deposits unlawfully and over trivialities, such as the one this thread is about.

On the separate matter of LLs not taking deposits. It's true, in order to avoid the paperwork of the TDS, some LLs no longer take deposits. Their choice... dumb, but their choice.

[snap_crackle_and_pop]

Can a Landlord keep a deposit for an untidy garden when there is no clause in the Tenancy agreement mentioning it?

Just wondering what the position on this is?

Thanks in advance for anyone who knows.

this wud be laughed out of small claims court! HE cant take all your deposit do do some weeding! FFS some landlords are scum!

[Planner]

Good luck to Theslump getting the money back, obviously TDS isnt releveant in this particular case as the tenancy is 4 years old, but at least tenants will have protection in any tenancys granted from April of this year.

On a purley "does anyone know note". If a AST was granted after the TDS start date and the LL didnt put deposit money in the a TDS a then at the end of the tenancy refused to pay the money back, would you sue for 1. non-return of despoit or 2. no deposit in TDS scheme?

[OzzMosiz]

Got weeds galore in my rented home. Landlord came round and put weed killer down whilst I sit on my lazy ar$e!

Edited August 22, 2007 by OzzMosiz

[TheSlump]

Planner said

(quote)

On a purley "does anyone know note". If a AST was granted after the TDS start date and the LL didnt put deposit money in the a TDS a then at the end of the tenancy refused to pay the money back, would you sue for 1. non-return of despoit or 2. no deposit in TDS scheme?

As I understand it the LL loses the right to give 2 months notice if they don't use the scheme but charge a deposit, also they have to write to you within 14 days notifying you which aspect of the scheme they are using (there are 2 options) if they fail to do this ditto, and you, in effect become a secure Tenant. Presumably this is so they can't wriggle out by giving you 2 months notice if you complain, as they are still able to do if you take them to court for not doing repairs.

LL bought this upon themselves with their own greed and dishonesty. And I suspect there will be more to come as more voters become Private Tenants rather than in Social Housing (which is where I started off and I wish after 3 crappy private Tenancies with the usual LL avarice that I still was,(it never felt like the serfdom of private renting) at least until sanity is forced to return and I can hopefully buy one.)

[JohnG]

Can a Landlord keep a deposit for an untidy garden when there is no clause in the Tenancy agreement mentioning it?

Just wondering what the position on this is?

Thanks in advance for anyone who knows.

Tidy it up then.

No argument.

FFS! :angry: