Turkey Boom Time

[propertyhelpturkey]

I nearly bought a property in Bodrum a couple of years ago. I pulled out because of the massive amount of new development. A year later, many of the properties I had viewed were still up for sale, some reduced in price.

Turkey has had its boom. It's over.

Me thinks you should have kept out the main resorts and moved jsut ever so slightly up the coasts .

No hassle,cheaper to live,cheaper property thta is easier to move on later.

Edited March 6, 2007 by propertyhelpturkey

[mikefluk]

I nearly bought a property in Bodrum a couple of years ago. I pulled out because of the massive amount of new development. A year later, many of the properties I had viewed were still up for sale, some reduced in price.

Turkey has had its boom. It's over.

Very interesting - I am currently onsdiering buying a 2bed pre plan in Finike priced at £49k developer says it is worth £75k. Has anybody got ant views/ advice on the wisdom of this. I am attaching the brochure I received on a development called Olympus Lake. The wife is very keen on it. But I like one in the Dominican Republic that costs £150k with a £50k deposit and rental guarantees paying the mortgage

[Radio]

Very interesting - I am currently onsdiering buying a 2bed pre plan in Finike priced at £49k developer says it is worth £75k. Has anybody got ant views/ advice on the wisdom of this. I am attaching the brochure I received on a development called Olympus Lake. The wife is very keen on it. But I like one in the Dominican Republic that costs £150k with a £50k deposit and rental guarantees paying the mortgage

Did the developer also tell you that the moon is made of cheese ?.

Give me strength !. Why would anyone sell anything worth £75k for £49k ?.

As for rental guarantees paying mortgages, are people still falling for this ? Obviously they are !.

Rental guarantees are factored into the sale price (just think about it) so you are just getting your own money back, on which you could be liable for tax !. Stop and think what will happen at the end of the guarantee period.

Incidentally, have you actually visited any of the areas you are considering ?. Let me guess .......

[mikefluk]

Did the developer also tell you that the moon is made of cheese ?.

Give me strength !. Why would anyone sell anything worth £75k for £49k ?.

As for rental guarantees paying mortgages, are people still falling for this ? Obviously they are !.

Rental guarantees are factored into the sale price (just think about it) so you are just getting your own money back, on which you could be liable for tax !. Stop and think what will happen at the end of the guarantee period.

Incidentally, have you actually visited any of the areas you are considering ?. Let me guess .......

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Before you judge please read the brochures :

Finike -www. Ready2invest.co.uk and click on the investment deals for Turkey look for Olympus Lake

Dominican Republic Go to flytobuy.net and read the bumf

Regarding your questions No I haven't seen them but then I have committed to another deal thru these guys recently

A 3 bed ski aprtment on the piste at Bansko (adjacent to Gondola Bought off plan by me four weeks ago for £52k now being offered off plan at £83k Why the 40% discount they needed to sell the early units to pay for the promotion of the off plan sales. Win Win for both of us ) Do a google on 3 beds in Bansko and you will not find any for less than £100k and that is for 400 metres away from Gondola. I didm't see that one either but I new I would not mind paying £52k for A 3 BED LUXURY SKI apartment regardless of future capital growth.

Regarding Turkey and Dominican Republic I am not too sure. Incidentally you cannot get a 2bed in dominican Republic of the quality on offer for less than £200k. My point is I would get it for £45k and rental guarantee to cover mortgage for 5 out of the 15 years it would take to pay off mortgage. Re Turkey the 40% discount is again pre plan and has to be paid in full up front. The development is superb (see brochure) including a 5000 metre swimming lake around the aprtments and 180 metres from the sea. Look at the sea we are talking about..beautiful

Please read them and then give me your honest thoughts and I may take them more seriously Thanks

[Radio]

Mike,

I can only assume you either inherited wealth or won the lottery. You certainly didn't make money investing solely on the basis of glossy brochures.

Let me explain some basics to you. Glossy brochures are designed to impress - but they have no legal validity whatever (read the small print). Your contract for a flat/villa whatever will only detail the the actual dwelling you are buying; there will be no reference/guarantee of any infrastructure, be that bars, restaurants, shops, pools etc. I have come across several developments in Spain that were sold on the basis of amenities, particularly the provision of a golf course and guess what ?. Once the developer had sold the properties - no amenities, no golf course. One development even had 'golf' in the name !.

You claim to have bought a LUXURY SKI apartment in Bulgaria. The bottom line is that you have no idea what you have bought, if anything, where it is, what the views are, what the area is like or the quality of construction. (From what I saw on a TV programme last year the quality of finish in Bulgaria leaves much to be desired). The ski season there is @ 8 weeks, with global warming reducing that each year. If you want to spend the whole season there don't buy, rent !. There is no shortage of accommodation. Basic research would have told you there is no resale market in Bulgaria; all the agents are pushing off-plan/new build. As for getting a discount so the developer can raise funds for marketing.......I hate to tell you this but Father Christmas doesn't exist. If you truly believe your property has gone up in price, put it on the market and see what interest you get.

You feel that you don't need to actually visit an area because you've already bought a property 'thru these guys'. That is totally illogical !. You really are a salesman's dream.

Lets look at the specific deals you are looking at. Firstly, Punta Perla in the Dominican Republic. There is a HUGE thread about this on the Singing Pig 'Overseas ' forum; please read it.

Ready2Invest in Turkey: I'm a great fan of Turkey, particularly the Turquoise coast; I go every year. Last year around the Fethiye area there were hundreds if not thousands of unsold properties, and new built properties in Dalyan remain unsold after several years. Why ?. One reason is that hotels are so cheap why have the hassle of maintaining a property year round, and there is a very poor rental market.

In R2I's brochure only two of the many photos are actually of Finike (actually a place I've never heard of !); one of an orange grove, and one of a not particularly attractive beach. There are numerous resorts along that coast, with tourist infrastructure already in place, so comparing rental returns with these is very misleading.

You are committed to paying £3,500 upfront, and the balance of the TOTAL purchase price within 21 days. I couldn't find anything in the brochure to indicate when construction might start, never mind being completed, so you are losing interest on your capital for the duration, however many years that might be. What I did find, hidden amongst the hype and froth, was that the developers don't as yet actually own the land, nor do they have a building permit ! ! !. Read on and should the development not go ahead for any reason, you get your money back, LESS the £3,500 paid upfront, which is non-refundable. What a great scheme !. Let's say they sell 100; that's 350k. Lets say in two years time they say the development isn't going ahead for any reason (don't say that can't happen - it frequently does); 2 years interest @5.5% = £38,500. R2I's take is £388,500. Nice work !.

The blurb goes on to say that after 4 years of ownership there is no liability for CGT - very disengenuous; Turkish CGT maybe, but as a UK taxpayer you are most certainly liable for CGT - in the unlikely event you do make a capital gain.

Before you part with any money I urge you to read the thread on R2R and R2I on the aforementioned Singing Pig, but more particularly the threads on the 'Streetwise' forum; according to postings there from very worried investors, not only are they in financial trouble, owing money, but they haven't actually completed a single overseas project !.

R2I's website says they have 29 staff - how are they being paid ?. Think about it.

Finally, a classic comment from R2I, "In 2005 we gained significant developer understanding". What on earth does that mean ?. We got stung, maybe ?. "

[dogbox]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Before you judge please read the brochures :

Finike -www. Ready2invest.co.uk and click on the investment deals for Turkey look for Olympus Lake

Finike looks like a nice little investment to me. Its impossible to predict what will happen, however given the entry price is so low, the only way you might lose is if the devloper goes bust or the political scene takes a turn for the worst which is reasonably possible.

Even so its a cheap property and a little different from the norm.

Idealy an investor should consider exactly how the place will be let and who will manage this ongoing.

Try and get a copy of the sales agreement now. The brochure makes many claims, hopefuly this will be reflected in the sales contract (for example "the pool will be x metres in size and will be fully maintained, with a service charge of £x pm")

Long drive from airport but that has'nt put me off holidays in the past!

[Pablo-silver or lead?]

When dealing with third party/middlemen/sales agents or direct with the Developer

It’s.....

Caveat Emptor

A few basic rules to remember when investing in property abroad:-

1. At least take the same level of care and caution when buying property in a foreign country as you would in the UK (i.e. employ a subject mater expert lawyer to advise/act on your behalf, as opposed to one recommended by a vested interest (VI), or rely on a commissioned sales person).

2. Take everything people with a VI’s (i.e. developer/sales agents or a lawyer recommended by them) say with a large pinch of salt and test their statements against factual/market reality (do your own due diligence (DD) ).

3. If the price/deal seems too good to be true it usually is.

4. Always take into account the cost of buying and selling when doing your DD. In places like Spain and the US these can be high and erode your profit or increase your loss. Also gain a detailed/realistic budget of the running costs of the property and taxes you will incur as an absentee owner. Investment properties abroad always cost more to own/run and generate lower income than budgeted for.

5. Never pay over your deposit unless you have a bona fide Bank Guarantee or it’s held in escrow. To pay the deposit into the developers/sales agents cash flow is to invite disaster, let other mugs do this and move on.

6. Take time to research what drives the market locally (both historically and currently) e.g. Take Florida as an example: Average annual property price rises in Florida historically being 3 to 4 % per annum and with 2004/05 being circa 15% and 27% respectively, and with interest rates being raised every month it was ‘buyer beware time’. Remember fundamentals need to underpin the market and locals/local economics can’t afford the prices wet back Brits seem willing to pay. There wont always be a 'greater fool' to off load to.

7. Never believe that your property has gone up just because the developer is charging new buyers ‘fresh off the plane’ a higher price than you paid six months or so earlier. Resale’s abroad (especially where there’s overdevelopment and/or, a none existent/weak resale market), do not command ‘new property premiums’ and can take years to sell if incorrectly priced. Bulgaria is a classic example of where Brits have paid £50k for 2 bed apartments and think they’ve made £10k profit because the developer is selling the next phase at £60k, only to find they can’t even find a resale buyer at their original purchases price. Many also made the mistake of taking the developers advice to buy two units, one to keep and one to sell at a profit!!

7. Buying a property abroad is not a ‘passive’ investment; you’re starting a business the main asset of which in hundreds or in Florida’s/Caribbean’s case thousands of miles away.

Buyer beware!

Pablo Silver or Lead?

[dogbox]

When dealing with third party/middlemen/sales agents or direct with the Developer

It’s.....

Caveat Emptor

A few basic rules to remember when investing in property abroad:-

1. At least take the same level of care and caution when buying property in a foreign country as you would in the UK (i.e. employ a subject mater expert lawyer to advise/act on your behalf, as opposed to one recommended by a vested interest (VI), or rely on a commissioned sales person).

2. Take everything people with a VI’s (i.e. developer/sales agents or a lawyer recommended by them) say with a large pinch of salt and test their statements against factual/market reality (do your own due diligence (DD) ).

3. If the price/deal seems too good to be true it usually is.

4. Always take into account the cost of buying and selling when doing your DD. In places like Spain and the US these can be high and erode your profit or increase your loss. Also gain a detailed/realistic budget of the running costs of the property and taxes you will incur as an absentee owner. Investment properties abroad always cost more to own/run and generate lower income than budgeted for.

5. Never pay over your deposit unless you have a bona fide Bank Guarantee or it’s held in escrow. To pay the deposit into the developers/sales agents cash flow is to invite disaster, let other mugs do this and move on.

6. Take time to research what drives the market locally (both historically and currently) e.g. Take Florida as an example: Average annual property price rises in Florida historically being 3 to 4 % per annum and with 2004/05 being circa 15% and 27% respectively, and with interest rates being raised every month it was ‘buyer beware time’. Remember fundamentals need to underpin the market and locals/local economics can’t afford the prices wet back Brits seem willing to pay. There wont always be a 'greater fool' to off load to.

7. Never believe that your property has gone up just because the developer is charging new buyers ‘fresh off the plane’ a higher price than you paid six months or so earlier. Resale’s abroad (especially where there’s overdevelopment and/or, a none existent/weak resale market), do not command ‘new property premiums’ and can take years to sell if incorrectly priced. Bulgaria is a classic example of where Brits have paid £50k for 2 bed apartments and think they’ve made £10k profit because the developer is selling the next phase at £60k, only to find they can’t even find a resale buyer at their original purchases price. Many also made the mistake of taking the developers advice to buy two units, one to keep and one to sell at a profit!!

7. Buying a property abroad is not a ‘passive’ investment; you’re starting a business the main asset of which in hundreds or in Florida’s/Caribbean’s case thousands of miles away.

Buyer beware!

Pablo Silver or Lead?

I agree with a lot of this. Not sure about the claim its a business. Many people Ive known over the years had no such business in mind yet all have made decent returns. I think in a business - like manner but I would same Im the exception not the rule.

What you say of agents is very true. One tried to flog me a property in Cape Verde today so I asked her what security is offered in the contract for me? Turned out there was none, the whole contract was loaded in favour of the developer so I just walked away.

Any serious developer worth dealing with should recognise canny buyers want the contract to be fair to both parties. For example to avoid loss in the event of a devloper going bust.

The agent said to me "the CV developer is Italian, established and lived on CV all his life" I replied "and............".

She then said "we can show you other developments he built out there" I said "how do I know he built them"

She said "take it on trust"!!!!!!!

TRUST IS WORTH ZERO. ANYONE ASKING FOR TRUST AND EXPECTING IT IS A MUPPET AND SHOULD BE AVOIDED.

Even family members fall - out over money which demonstrates trust is completely irrelevant.

All that matters is the contract. If it aint written down, ignore it.

[Pablo-silver or lead?]

dogbox

your attitude is the right one to have to give youeself the best chance of success, business like no emotion to cloud things. The vast majority of Brits buying abroad are mug punters that sign then worry as opposed to worry then sign. My comment on Business is in regards to places like Florida where if you are going to let the property out you need an occupational and a Dept of Hotel license, specialist insurance and generate rental customers yourself (as the management company and Real Estate Agent that sold it won't). Also in place Like Bulgaria etc you have to set up a ltd entity to hold the title.

[mikefluk]

Mike,

I can only assume you either inherited wealth or won the lottery. You certainly didn't make money investing solely on the basis of glossy brochures.

Let me explain some basics to you. Glossy brochures are designed to impress - but they have no legal validity whatever (read the small print). Your contract for a flat/villa whatever will only detail the the actual dwelling you are buying; there will be no reference/guarantee of any infrastructure, be that bars, restaurants, shops, pools etc. I have come across several developments in Spain that were sold on the basis of amenities, particularly the provision of a golf course and guess what ?. Once the developer had sold the properties - no amenities, no golf course. One development even had 'golf' in the name !.

You claim to have bought a LUXURY SKI apartment in Bulgaria. The bottom line is that you have no idea what you have bought, if anything, where it is, what the views are, what the area is like or the quality of construction. (From what I saw on a TV programme last year the quality of finish in Bulgaria leaves much to be desired). The ski season there is @ 8 weeks, with global warming reducing that each year. If you want to spend the whole season there don't buy, rent !. There is no shortage of accommodation. Basic research would have told you there is no resale market in Bulgaria; all the agents are pushing off-plan/new build. As for getting a discount so the developer can raise funds for marketing.......I hate to tell you this but Father Christmas doesn't exist. If you truly believe your property has gone up in price, put it on the market and see what interest you get.

You feel that you don't need to actually visit an area because you've already bought a property 'thru these guys'. That is totally illogical !. You really are a salesman's dream.

Lets look at the specific deals you are looking at. Firstly, Punta Perla in the Dominican Republic. There is a HUGE thread about this on the Singing Pig 'Overseas ' forum; please read it.

Ready2Invest in Turkey: I'm a great fan of Turkey, particularly the Turquoise coast; I go every year. Last year around the Fethiye area there were hundreds if not thousands of unsold properties, and new built properties in Dalyan remain unsold after several years. Why ?. One reason is that hotels are so cheap why have the hassle of maintaining a property year round, and there is a very poor rental market.

In R2I's brochure only two of the many photos are actually of Finike (actually a place I've never heard of !); one of an orange grove, and one of a not particularly attractive beach. There are numerous resorts along that coast, with tourist infrastructure already in place, so comparing rental returns with these is very misleading.

You are committed to paying £3,500 upfront, and the balance of the TOTAL purchase price within 21 days. I couldn't find anything in the brochure to indicate when construction might start, never mind being completed, so you are losing interest on your capital for the duration, however many years that might be. What I did find, hidden amongst the hype and froth, was that the developers don't as yet actually own the land, nor do they have a building permit ! ! !. Read on and should the development not go ahead for any reason, you get your money back, LESS the £3,500 paid upfront, which is non-refundable. What a great scheme !. Let's say they sell 100; that's 350k. Lets say in two years time they say the development isn't going ahead for any reason (don't say that can't happen - it frequently does); 2 years interest @5.5% = £38,500. R2I's take is £388,500. Nice work !.

The blurb goes on to say that after 4 years of ownership there is no liability for CGT - very disengenuous; Turkish CGT maybe, but as a UK taxpayer you are most certainly liable for CGT - in the unlikely event you do make a capital gain.

Before you part with any money I urge you to read the thread on R2R and R2I on the aforementioned Singing Pig, but more particularly the threads on the 'Streetwise' forum; according to postings there from very worried investors, not only are they in financial trouble, owing money, but they haven't actually completed a single overseas project !.

R2I's website says they have 29 staff - how are they being paid ?. Think about it.

Finally, a classic comment from R2I, "In 2005 we gained significant developer understanding". What on earth does that mean ?. We got stung, maybe ?. "

Radio

Thanks again for this very long reply I appreciate it. Have to say you are a real condescending tw** at times but I do appreciate your advice. I checked in to the singing pig and that was a great tip you gave. I too have had difficulty in getting responses to my questions from the developer so I am now withdrawing my interest.

Regarding Turkey it was a great point you picked up on the deposit and you embarrassed me pointing out that only 2 photos were of Finike. Are you telling menthe beautiful photos of the Turquoise Beach were elsewhere ?

Think you are slightly harsh on Bansko Threy have a web cam and you can see the snow covering from December until April and some times early May With this it is somewhere we would choose to spend maybe 3 months a year when we retire so I just wanted a cheap entry point. The yield is less important. Also the guy I bought from was Scott higgins of Intrepid Investments don't tell me you know horror stories about him too because isn't he a BBC2 proeprty reporter ?

You are right about visitng a place before buying it and I will visit turkey for a holiday with the wife and see first hand for myself where the value is. Dont you thnk the suddent introduction of mortgages to the locals will change things for the better You have to agree the devlopment is bette rthan the norm and very cheap

[rondy]

Radio

Thanks again for this very long reply I appreciate it. Have to say you are a real condescending tw** at times but I do appreciate your advice. I checked in to the singing pig and that was a great tip you gave. I too have had difficulty in getting responses to my questions from the developer so I am now withdrawing my interest.

Regarding Turkey it was a great point you picked up on the deposit and you embarrassed me pointing out that only 2 photos were of Finike. Are you telling menthe beautiful photos of the Turquoise Beach were elsewhere ?

Think you are slightly harsh on Bansko Threy have a web cam and you can see the snow covering from December until April and some times early May With this it is somewhere we would choose to spend maybe 3 months a year when we retire so I just wanted a cheap entry point. The yield is less important. Also the guy I bought from was Scott higgins of Intrepid Investments don't tell me you know horror stories about him too because isn't he a BBC2 proeprty reporter ?

You are right about visitng a place before buying it and I will visit turkey for a holiday with the wife and see first hand for myself where the value is. Dont you thnk the suddent introduction of mortgages to the locals will change things for the better You have to agree the devlopment is bette rthan the norm and very cheap

Bansko had about 2 weeks of good snow this year. There is a 2 hour long line at the gondola and nobody reaaly wants to rent 400m from the gondola as there are plenty of empty buildings across the street from the gondola.

[mikefluk]

Bansko had about 2 weeks of good snow this year. There is a 2 hour long line at the gondola and nobody reaaly wants to rent 400m from the gondola as there are plenty of empty buildings across the street from the gondola.

It gets better !! The complex I have bought into though will be the only ski in ski out complex on the resort, right next to the gondola. It is not scheduled for completion until 2008. A 3bed for £52k part of a massive high end complex with retail, bars restaurants, conference and buiseness facilities. Apparently it will be the best complex of anything else around and right in the heart of the skiing.

[Radio]

Hi Mike,

I make no apologies for being a condescending tw.. !. My intention was to sting you into a reality check, and fortunately it seems to have worked. If I've saved you or anyone from making a potentially expensive mistake then it was worth the time & effort to make my post.

Have you gone back and looked at R2I's brochure again ?. I suspect you will have a different take on it now. Statements such as "the design was inspired by " are quite laughable, as is the fact that the developer, despite not owning the land nor having planning permission, has already chosen the kitchens & bathrooms !.

Did you read the threads on the 'Streetwise' forum ?; that should make you realise what a narrow escape you had.

As for Bansko if you bought purely for yourselves, o.k. but rondy's post does rather confirm what I said.

With regard to Scott Huggins, I worked for the BBC as well, so that shows how little store you can set by 'celebrity' endorsement !. In fact, I wouldn't deal with a company using that marketing tool on principle. Many years ago a very well known holiday show presenter lent her name to a Spanish development, which turned out to be not what it seemed, and a couple of years ago a TV presenter was involved in a pyramid scam. A famous footballer allowed his pet charity to be hijacked by an unscrupulous agent to give kudos to a development. View developments on their merits and nothing else. As Joe Friday used to say in 'Dragnet' (showing my age !), "Just give us the facts, ma'am, just give us the facts".

Pleased to hear you are going to Turkey on holiday. Apart from enjoying yourselves you'll be able to research at your own pace, and look at the reality rather than the brochure. The turquoise coast is beautiful, in places, and each resort is different. If you want throbbing night life , karaoke bars, fish & chips, Sky t.v. etc then Marmaris might be for you (I hate it - but nearby Turunc is nice). Kalkan has charm, rather like a Cornish fishing village tumbling down to the harbour; the nearby Patara beach was voted 'best in the world' a few years back. My favourite place is Dalyan. It's actually situated on a river, overlooked by the Roman ruins of Caunos and Lycean rock tombs. The turtle beach is 15 minutes away by dolmus (mini bus) or 30 minutes by boat.

As for the introduction of local mortgages, just my opinion, but I don't think it will make that much difference. As you will see for yourselves, there is a glut of property to rent, so it really is a buyers/renters market.

Please let us know how you got on and your views.

Good luck.

[rondy]

It gets better !! The complex I have bought into though will be the only ski in ski out complex on the resort, right next to the gondola. It is not scheduled for completion until 2008. A 3bed for £52k part of a massive high end complex with retail, bars restaurants, conference and buiseness facilities. Apparently it will be the best complex of anything else around and right in the heart of the skiing.

Man, you really are a piece of art! Pure flesh for the shiny teeths of Real Estate agents!

Good luck anyway, you really seem to need lots of it!

[mikefluk]

Hi Mike,

I make no apologies for being a condescending tw.. !. My intention was to sting you into a reality check, and fortunately it seems to have worked. If I've saved you or anyone from making a potentially expensive mistake then it was worth the time & effort to make my post.

Have you gone back and looked at R2I's brochure again ?. I suspect you will have a different take on it now. Statements such as "the design was inspired by " are quite laughable, as is the fact that the developer, despite not owning the land nor having planning permission, has already chosen the kitchens & bathrooms !.

Did you read the threads on the 'Streetwise' forum ?; that should make you realise what a narrow escape you had.

As for Bansko if you bought purely for yourselves, o.k. but rondy's post does rather confirm what I said.

With regard to Scott Huggins, I worked for the BBC as well, so that shows how little store you can set by 'celebrity' endorsement !. In fact, I wouldn't deal with a company using that marketing tool on principle. Many years ago a very well known holiday show presenter lent her name to a Spanish development, which turned out to be not what it seemed, and a couple of years ago a TV presenter was involved in a pyramid scam. A famous footballer allowed his pet charity to be hijacked by an unscrupulous agent to give kudos to a development. View developments on their merits and nothing else. As Joe Friday used to say in 'Dragnet' (showing my age !), "Just give us the facts, ma'am, just give us the facts".

Pleased to hear you are going to Turkey on holiday. Apart from enjoying yourselves you'll be able to research at your own pace, and look at the reality rather than the brochure. The turquoise coast is beautiful, in places, and each resort is different. If you want throbbing night life , karaoke bars, fish & chips, Sky t.v. etc then Marmaris might be for you (I hate it - but nearby Turunc is nice). Kalkan has charm, rather like a Cornish fishing village tumbling down to the harbour; the nearby Patara beach was voted 'best in the world' a few years back. My favourite place is Dalyan. It's actually situated on a river, overlooked by the Roman ruins of Caunos and Lycean rock tombs. The turtle beach is 15 minutes away by dolmus (mini bus) or 30 minutes by boat.

As for the introduction of local mortgages, just my opinion, but I don't think it will make that much difference. As you will see for yourselves, there is a glut of property to rent, so it really is a buyers/renters market.

Please let us know how you got on and your views.

Good luck.

Do you have a link for the steetwise forum as I haven't heard of that one. Thanks to your advice though I have withdrawn my interest form Dom Rep and Turkey although I did check with R2I all of the deposit and fee was refundable (they would put in writing) and they have the planning permission - it is the land that they don't yet own but is expected shortly. The finike beach was the less than attractive one at the end of the brochure. I will keep you posted on bansko

Radio you seem well clued up on things do you know anything specific about the following that I have come across

1. The Property Association

2. Ready2Invest

3. Intrepid Investments

4. Hot Property Alert Magazine edited by peter parfait and Scott Higgins

Thanks for your help - probably save dme thousands and lots of heartache. I don't care about the condescending nature all part of the due diligence

[rondy]

Radio you seem well clued up on things do you know anything specific about the following that I have come across

1. The Property Association

2. Ready2Invest

3. Intrepid Investments

4. Hot Property Alert Magazine edited by peter parfait and Scott Higgins

The only way to get acceptable deals is to use local resources. For Turkey, find real estate agents from Turkey, for USA find Real Estate agents from USA, etc.

The sites you mention are just bunches of bad deals and overpriced properties.

[mikefluk]

The only way to get acceptable deals is to use local resources. For Turkey, find real estate agents from Turkey, for USA find Real Estate agents from USA, etc.

The sites you mention are just bunches of bad deals and overpriced properties.

Rondy

Thanks for your interest in this thread. Do you have any first hand experience of these groups or is it a generic opinion.

What is your agenda here Are you an investor or not.... if so where do you put your money.

[rondy]

Rondy

Thanks for your interest in this thread. Do you have any first hand experience of these groups or is it a generic opinion.

What is your agenda here Are you an investor or not.... if so where do you put your money.

I was interested in many countries. At the current time I am considering several possibilities in Rio Grande del NOrte or Ceara (Brazil), Cayo or Ambergris Caye (Belize) or Florida or Nevada (USA). Maybe Chiriqui in Panama.

I have been in touch with many of those investment groups. I know that for example in Romania or Bulgaria they have very expensive deals.

If you are interested about propetrty in Romania, go to

www.ansambluriimobiliare.ro

It is in Romanian but some parts have English translations.

[racheladavid]

If not Turkey, what is?

[mikefluk]

If not Turkey, what is?

Sorry don't understand...please explain

[dogbox]

Mike, there is an age old battle between optimists and pessimists that will never end.

Pessimists use the 'current' situation to frame thier thoughts. Optimists instead consider 'the future'.

In this way optimists get in when no one else dares to, and then if the infrastructure improves they have done well.

Im an optimist (just), but a very cautious one.

Many people scoff at my investing in places such as Germany and Morocco. Again thier terms of reference are the 'here and now', whereas mine are focused 5 years+.

The pessimists are realists perhaps, but in my experience they talk themselves out of everything. If you think about it, almost nothing new makes sence in the early days. In the 1950s it was though supermarkets would never take - off!

20 years from now I want to be an owner of meaningful property assets not a regretful bystander.

Here's an example of irrational optimism: Several sucessful business people I know are investing heavily in self - storage as they see this as THE growth business of our time.

The pessimists tell them they are mad fools, yet these optimists plod on and I bet in 10 years every Banker in Brotain will be scrambling to aquire these assets (10 years too late).

As I always point out, the pessimists to a Man in the early and even late nineties told us investing in depressed Northern UK property was muppetry - how wrong they were.

Stick to your guns, but at the same time be careful and follow a 'dont lose' policy.

[mikefluk]

Mike, there is an age old battle between optimists and pessimists that will never end.

Pessimists use the 'current' situation to frame thier thoughts. Optimists instead consider 'the future'.

In this way optimists get in when no one else dares to, and then if the infrastructure improves they have done well.

Im an optimist (just), but a very cautious one.

Many people scoff at my investing in places such as Germany and Morocco. Again thier terms of reference are the 'here and now', whereas mine are focused 5 years+.

The pessimists are realists perhaps, but in my experience they talk themselves out of everything. If you think about it, almost nothing new makes sence in the early days. In the 1950s it was though supermarkets would never take - off!

20 years from now I want to be an owner of meaningful property assets not a regretful bystander.

Here's an example of irrational optimism: Several sucessful business people I know are investing heavily in self - storage as they see this as THE growth business of our time.

The pessimists tell them they are mad fools, yet these optimists plod on and I bet in 10 years every Banker in Brotain will be scrambling to aquire these assets (10 years too late).

As I always point out, the pessimists to a Man in the early and even late nineties told us investing in depressed Northern UK property was muppetry - how wrong they were.

Stick to your guns, but at the same time be careful and follow a 'dont lose' policy.

Dogbox

Many thanks for this alternative spin on things; it helps to balance the argument. I can see that views quickly become polarised. I turned down DR because I have had problems with the developer and if there are problems before you have parted with cash what would it be like afterwards. Also DR does seem dominated by the US nad that appears to be tanking. Regarding Turkey Radio did and excellent critique of the palce and it is obvious what I was buying in to wasn't what I was I was led to beleive what I was buying in to so I lost trust.

Regarding Bansko I have read every forum going and every investors web site. Lots of negative stuff including over development, crap new build, long queues, stray dogs, crap customer service, no snow

even a lack of fresh water and other infrastructure. I think this is to be expected for a new resort and is something I am prepared to be patient with in the short term. In fact reading a lot of reviews from visitors they either love the place or hate it. The comments from those that hate it tend to be the lowest common denominator Brits that you meet on holiday that complain that the receptionist doesn't smile at them; the same receptionsit that earns a fraqction of what they earn and cannot afford the facilities on their own doorstep. By any account £52k for a 3 bed partment at the heart of the complex is cheap. Yes it would be great if everying was in place; but if it was it would be a lot more and I wouldn't be able to afford it. It might be a mistake as an investment but if it gives me and my family 2-3 months of skiing, National Park and hot springs I will settle for that.

The reason why I like to hear the pessimists is because I am an optimist I know that so I need to hear it to keep my feet on the ground. Also property is not my sepciality, equity investments are and the sfunds I have to invest in property are only what I have gained from the stock markets in the past few years recycled.

Regarding Morrocco and Saidia the people I am with have a few lucrative loking deals on in there at the moment and I would be happy to pass on details to you if you like

[Radio]

Do you have a link for the steetwise forum as I haven't heard of that one. Thanks to your advice though I have withdrawn my interest form Dom Rep and Turkey although I did check with R2I all of the deposit and fee was refundable (they would put in writing) and they have the planning permission - it is the land that they don't yet own but is expected shortly. The finike beach was the less than attractive one at the end of the brochure. I will keep you posted on bansko

Radio you seem well clued up on things do you know anything specific about the following that I have come across

1. The Property Association

2. Ready2Invest

3. Intrepid Investments

4. Hot Property Alert Magazine edited by peter parfait and Scott Higgins

Thanks for your help - probably save dme thousands and lots of heartache. I don't care about the condescending nature all part of the due diligence

Hi Mike,

www.streetwisepublications.co.uk

How can a company have planning permission for land they don't own ?. If all fees are refundable why does it say completely the opposite in the brochure ?. If the alarm bells were any louder you'd go deaf !.

You already know my views on R2I from my Finike critique, but check out the threads on Streetwise. The same outfit publishes HPA. A couple of years ago I subscribed (before I knew better). The articles are thinly disguised sales pitches; a couple of the projects 'pushed' have failed spectacularly, costing investors dear. When challenged SW said it was nothing to do with them and I was banned from the forum.

As for The Property Association & Intrepid Investments, there are numerous outfits like this all claiming to be your friend, acting in your best interests, sourcing off-plan discounts etc.

Bottom line, in the short term the only people making money in overseas properties are outfits and agents like these who are actually selling the properties, NOT the people buying them. Rather like the Klondike gold rush, where the profits were made by people selling picks & shovels, not the people digging for gold.

You say I've saved you thousands; good - you owe me a bottle of wine !.

Seriously, use that money to visit areas you are interested in, and compare the glossy brochure hype with the reality.

I note on a new thread you are contemplating Kusadasi. Go there when on holiday. It's popular with cruise ships and day trippers visiting the ruins of Ephesus (stunning, a 'must see' if you have any interest in history), but it's a low end resort for the lager lout brigade; town beaches poor, decent beaches a bus ride away.

I agree with dogbox's views long term, particularly with regard to Germany (i used to live there). Personally, I think Morocco is being overhyped - just a personal assessment. The Institute for Strategic Studies recently published a report assessing the security threat to Western Europe over the next decade, and their overwhelming conclusion was that the biggest danger was disaffected North Africans.

[mikefluk]

Hi Mike,

www.streetwisepublications.co.uk

How can a company have planning permission for land they don't own ?. If all fees are refundable why does it say completely the opposite in the brochure ?. If the alarm bells were any louder you'd go deaf !.

You already know my views on R2I from my Finike critique, but check out the threads on Streetwise. The same outfit publishes HPA. A couple of years ago I subscribed (before I knew better). The articles are thinly disguised sales pitches; a couple of the projects 'pushed' have failed spectacularly, costing investors dear. When challenged SW said it was nothing to do with them and I was banned from the forum.

As for The Property Association & Intrepid Investments, there are numerous outfits like this all claiming to be your friend, acting in your best interests, sourcing off-plan discounts etc.

Bottom line, in the short term the only people making money in overseas properties are outfits and agents like these who are actually selling the properties, NOT the people buying them. Rather like the Klondike gold rush, where the profits were made by people selling picks & shovels, not the people digging for gold.

You say I've saved you thousands; good - you owe me a bottle of wine !.

Seriously, use that money to visit areas you are interested in, and compare the glossy brochure hype with the reality.

I note on a new thread you are contemplating Kusadasi. Go there when on holiday. It's popular with cruise ships and day trippers visiting the ruins of Ephesus (stunning, a 'must see' if you have any interest in history), but it's a low end resort for the lager lout brigade; town beaches poor, decent beaches a bus ride away.

I agree with dogbox's views long term, particularly with regard to Germany (i used to live there). Personally, I think Morocco is being overhyped - just a personal assessment. The Institute for Strategic Studies recently published a report assessing the security threat to Western Europe over the next decade, and their overwhelming conclusion was that the biggest danger was disaffected North Africans.

Thanks very much for this advice. I am not interested in the lager lout brigade so will knock Kusadasi on the head. I note you like Brazil; HPA recently had a banana plantation iwth a 4 bed house and lots of acres in Brazil for £25k . I can give you the lead if you like

I am beginning to think like you on overseas property and HPA specifically. They have a brilliant marketing concept. They publish a brochure that you pay to subscribe and it is full of their off plan deals !!

Still hopeful for Bansko but thats the end of my overseas investments for now. Whilst I have your attention do you have vies on the Serbia property syndicate. There was also one regarding a group who are buying successful (over 50% profit on wet sales) bars in France and turning them into traditional England Flag pubs with good food. both looking for £17.5k minimum investment. One is projecting a 30% return. The other a 1% equity share in the company with dividends rising to £8k after 6 years. I can give you further details of this one if you like.

[Radio]

Hi Mike,

Don't know where you got the idea I like Brazil !. I have a small exposure via an emerging market unit trust, but property !!!. Too far away, don't speak the language, don't know the legal system, unstable currency etc.etc.

I refer again to the Klondike. As for Serbia and French pubs, the old adages hold true - if it sounds too good to be true etc. it usually is .

Don't rush into anything; keep your powder dry. If you are in for the long haul many people would recommend the stockmarket which over the very long term has out performed property. After much research, my view on foreign markets is buy for your own use, not for investment. Ironically, adopting that attitude has actually produced great returns. Many years ago I bought a building plot in a former colony with a view to one day moving there. Realised that wasn't going to happen, sold 2 years ago. Average capital growth - 10%. Not phenomenal, but a lot better than the average deposit account.

Too many people are gambling in property. The current situation is reminiscent of the time just before the '29 crash when Rockefeller said, "When your cab driver is giving you stock tips it's time to get out of the market".

In my local barbers (o.k. - unisex hairdressers) the other day listening to people boast about their off-plan buy in Bulgaria; people who don't even know what a unit trust or an ISA is. Dangerous times.