The Problems With Atheism

[jonewer]

If Jesus is who He said He was, God in flesh, then whatever He says is authoritative and true. He said that He was the way the truth in the life and that nobody comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). Right there,we see that any other way, according to Jesus, is not true.

Oh dear..... you just dont get it do you.

[HOwner]

Errr no ..... dude, you are confused !!

The point is what do you believe is the explanation for life, the universe and everything etc ..... religious people say God ..... Atheists say it isn't God ..... so what is it then ?? The only "non-God" alternative is Science = Big Bang + Time + Evolution + Serendipity = Us !!

Unless of course you believe in Aliens or something similar to The Matrix !!

No, a non-god solution could be "I don't know, but I don't think it is god". It could be "the cheese monster made us", it could be "the matrix" as you suggest.

It could be anything. Some atheists do believe in aliens some do not. Some like beer, some do not. But none of them believe in god.

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

Incidentally:

Agnosticism

Atheism

[scarlets79]

What are God's standards? Have you managed to penetrate the mind of God? Are you deluded or just plain arrogant to think that you know what God is thinking? Or are you going to say that you read it in the "Bible".

God's standards are revealed in the Bible.

I bet Jesus said something different and has been misquoted. And even if he did say these words I do not think he meant to define his personality as the only way to salvation. It contradicts other things he said. I have little faith in anyone's ability to construct absolutely accurate accounts of what occured years after the event.

Where is your evidence to back up these assertions?

I'm here to defend Christianity and put Atheism on the spot- nothing personal.

[BoomBoom]

God's standards are revealed in the Bible.

Where is your evidence to back up these assertions?

I'm here to defend Christianity and put Atheism on the spot- nothing personal.

Why do the dictates of an omniscient entity need to be defended by you?

[HOwner]

I wasn't really trying to prove the existance of God. In fact I'm not sure I actually believe in the existance of God. Incidentally, all of the above is entirely possible. Can you prove conclusively that we're not all living inside a gigantic computer program having our senses manipulated by machines so that they can harvest our bodies for energy to keep themselves alive?

Edit (for possible clarity):

What I'm not trying to do is construct some kind of arguement along the lines of "well we have to have faith in these things so we should have faith in God as well" but was merely trying to make a point about the limited nature of our own perceptions.

No, I can't say we are living inside a computer program, which I why I don't say "there isn't a god". I don't believe there is a god. There is a difference however small it might be

[enrieb]

God's standards are revealed in the Bible.

Where is your evidence to back up these assertions?

I'm here to defend Christianity and put Atheism on the spot- nothing personal.

Exactly what are you defending Christianity from? Your foundation of faith in existance of your God seems so weak that it cannot withstand the fact that others simply disagree with you.

Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence. The more certitude one assumes, the less there is left to think about, and a person sure of everything would never have any need to think about anything and might be considered clinically dead under current medical standards, where the absence of brain activity is taken to mean that life has ended.

[scarlets79]

Exactly what are you defending Christianity from? Your foundation of faith in existance of your God seems so weak that it cannot withstand the fact that others simply disagree with you.

I am defending Christianity from the attacks and misrepresentations it receives from individuals and media. It is actually part of my faith to do this:

"but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence," (1 Peter 3:15).

Let's get back to the topic:-

To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

Atheism only exists in a vacuum. It must disprove theistic proofs. It cannot prove itself true. It is a very weak place to be intellectually.

[HOwner]

I am defending Christianity from the attacks and misrepresentations it receives from individuals and media. It is actually part of my faith to do this:

"but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence," (1 Peter 3:15).

Let's get back to the topic:-

To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

Atheism only exists in a vacuum. It must disprove theistic proofs. It cannot prove itself true. It is a very weak place to be intellectually.

You keep missing (or deliberately ignoring) the point. Atheists do not believe in god. That is NOT the same as saying categorically that god does not exist.

If you are going to be critical of position, it helps if you have a basic understanding of it first.

[scarlets79]

Atheism is an intellectual position. What reasons do you have for holding that position? Your reasons are based upon logic, and/or evidence or lack of it. So, is there any reason/evidence for you holding your position that you defend?

[enrieb]

Atheists in general don't defend their position because they don't have a position to defend. The assertion that there is a God is your assertion it is yours to believe if you want to.

You don't see groups of atheists outside churchs holding banners saying "there is no god" nor do they troll religious forums on the internet.

The real question is why can you not accept that not everybody believes in your god.

[scarlets79]

Atheists in general don't defend their position because they don't have a position to defend. The assertion that there is a God is your assertion it is yours to believe if you want to.

Then you are holding a position that has no evidence or rational basis? If so, then isn't that simply faith?

If you say that atheism is supported by the lack of evidence for God, then it is only your opinion that there is no evidence. You cannot know all evidence for or against God, therefore you cannot say there is no evidence for God.

If you say that atheism needs no evidence to support it because it is a position about the lack of something, then do you have other positions you hold based upon lack of evidence...like say, screaming blue ants? Do you hold the position that they do not exist or that you lack belief in them, too?

[HOwner]

Then you are holding a position that has no evidence or rational basis? If so, then isn't that simply faith?

If you say that atheism is supported by the lack of evidence for God, then it is only your opinion that there is no evidence. You cannot know all evidence for or against God, therefore you cannot say there is no evidence for God.

If you say that atheism needs no evidence to support it because it is a position about the lack of something, then do you have other positions you hold based upon lack of evidence...like say, screaming blue ants? Do you hold the position that they do not exist or that you lack belief in them, too?

There is stacks of evidence against christianity. However, if you are talking about a god in general, lets go back to the ewok scenario to show how ridiculous your understanding is. I have explained in laymens terms the error in your understanding of atheism, but perhaps this is the only way you can understand..

Do you believe that I am an Ewok?If you think the answer is no, given how much humanity knows about the universe, isn't it possible, etc, etc, you cannot know all the evidence for or against, etc etc.

So Scarlet, do you think that I am an Ewok (watch out for hypocrisy here)? Please apply your own "logic" that you use above.

Also, if you are truely interested in other peoples points of view, you should actually reply the points they raise, rather than simply ignore them if they don't suit. I know that waht you are doing is the normal christian technique, but, as I said, if you want to understand other peoples points of view, you will have to respond.

[Guest muttley]

You cannot know all evidence for or against God, therefore you cannot say there is no evidence for God.

Shouldn't evidence be, well, evident?

By the way, what are all these predictions in the Bible that you say have come true?

[enrieb]

Then you are holding a position that has no evidence or rational basis? If so, then isn't that simply faith?

If you say that atheism is supported by the lack of evidence for God, then it is only your opinion that there is no evidence. You cannot know all evidence for or against God, therefore you cannot say there is no evidence for God.

If you say that atheism needs no evidence to support it because it is a position about the lack of something, then do you have other positions you hold based upon lack of evidence...like say, screaming blue ants? Do you hold the position that they do not exist or that you lack belief in them, too?

"If you say that atheism is supported by the lack of evidence for God"

Well no, nobody actually said that, only you.

"then it is only your opinion that there is no evidence"

Well if there is no evidence that can be presented then we have to assume that there is no evidence. What don't you understand about this part? and should we change the entire leagal system to accomodate you unique view of evidence?

"You cannot know all evidence for or against God, therefore you cannot say there is no evidence for God. "

If you would like to present evidence then please do so, what is more probably that a persons inability to present evidence is proof of their unsubstanciated claims or that their inability to produce evidence is due to the lack of evidence to support said cliams. Again should we change the leagal system to accomodate your unique view of evidence?

You are basing your entire argument on a misunderstanding, your misunderstanding of what atheism is. Its a bit of a strawman really, you are asserting that atheiests assert that there is no god and must therefore have prove that there is no god. Where as in reallity athiests simply assert that there not good reason to believe in something when there is a complete absence of evidence to support the belief.

[Perfectionist]

No, a non-god solution could be "I don't know, but I don't think it is god". It could be "the cheese monster made us", it could be "the matrix" as you suggest.

There is nothing inherently wrong with not believing in God, in fact I'd happily fight for your right to do so ..... but it just seems silly to say the alternative is "I don't know" ..... !!

What exactly makes you so 100% sure that there is no God ?? Is it just blind errrr faith !! That makes you no different to the narrow minded Bible/Koran/Torah bunch !!

[scarlets79]

what kind of things you’d accept, within reason, as evidence for God? If you have nothing to offer, then you haven’t thought your position through... and if you haven’t done that, then can you honestly lay claim to the title ‘atheist’?

[Te Mata]

There is nothing inherently wrong with not believing in God, in fact I'd happily fight for your right to do so ..... but it just seems silly to say the alternative is "I don't know" ..... !!

What exactly makes you so 100% sure that there is no God ?? Is it just blind errrr faith !! That makes you no different to the narrow minded Bible/Koran/Torah bunch !!

They are ever so keen to convince others also.

[HOwner]

There is nothing inherently wrong with not believing in God, in fact I'd happily fight for your right to do so ..... but it just seems silly to say the alternative is "I don't know" ..... !!

Absolutely, it is silly. In fact my opinion of those who don't believe for no particular reason is almost as low as for those who do believe for no particular reason. However, there are people out there who don't accept that there is a god, even though they do not know or cannot envisage any alternative. However strange that maybe, they are still atheists.

What exactly makes you so 100% sure that there is no God ?? Is it just blind errrr faith !! That makes you no different to the narrow minded Bible/Koran/Torah bunch !!

I used to be a christian, the more I investigated it, the more I realised it simply could not be true. There might be a god, but I haven't seen one iota of evidence, and therefore, as such, I have to relegate it to the closet with the tooth fairy, santa, and the little invisible red dragon sitting outside my door. There is no evidence for those either (well, actually there is more evidence for Santa than the Christian god, but that is another story).

Scarlet, if you are not going to bother addressing points made to you, I don't see why anyone should answer you.

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

I am defending Christianity from the attacks and misrepresentations it receives from individuals and media. It is actually part of my faith to do this:

"but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence," (1 Peter 3:15).

Let's get back to the topic:-

To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

Atheism only exists in a vacuum. It must disprove theistic proofs. It cannot prove itself true. It is a very weak place to be intellectually.

To say categorically, "There is a God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is a God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

Religion only exists in a vacuum. It must disprove atheistic proofs. It cannot prove itself true. It is a very weak place to be intellectually.

[scarlets79]

I used to be a christian, the more I investigated it, the more I realised it simply could not be true.

Are you denying the resurrection? The Gospels? What are you alleging is not true exactly?

[HOwner]

They are ever so keen to convince others also.

See, that is generalisation too. I am an atheist, married to a "believer", who goes to church. I am certainly not alone. In fact, far from it. If people want to believe in santa, go ahead, as long as it doesn't affect me, you can believe whatever you want. However, it would be nice if everyone stopped believing nonsense, but only in the same way as it would be nice if everyone could read and write. I don't gain directly from that, but would still like to see it.

[scarlets79]

To say categorically, "There is a God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is a God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

Religion only exists in a vacuum. It must disprove atheistic proofs. It cannot prove itself true. It is a very weak place to be intellectually.

haha! that just doesn't work I'm afraid, nice try

to support my beliefs I can present evidence

to support your beliefs you cannot, since you have no evidence to offer for your position.

[Te Mata]

See, that is generalisation too. I am an atheist, married to a "believer", who goes to church. I am certainly not alone. In fact, far from it. If people want to believe in santa, go ahead, as long as it doesn't affect me, you can believe whatever you want. However, it would be nice if everyone stopped believing nonsense, but only in the same way as it would be nice if everyone could read and write. I don't gain directly from that, but would still like to see it.

I am in no way overtly spiritual/religious. I have a lot of "intellectual" friends who are atheists. When they discover my views on these matters, to a man/women they try to "convert" me to atheism.

A bit of a generalization yes, but it happens ALL the time. It does make for interesting discussions though

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

haha! that just doesn't work I'm afraid, nice try

to support my beliefs I can present evidence

to support your beliefs you cannot, since you have no evidence to offer for your position.

Ah so my your beliefs are better than mine, nananana. Isn't arrogance supposed to be a sin?

I'm not convinced by the quality of the evidence you have presented so far, especially since you have not attempted to resolve the rather glaring paradox I pointed out in your arguements a couple of pages back.

I'm also rather curious as to what you think my beliefs actually are that are so inferior to yours. Actually about the only thing I really do believe is that it is better to feel happy than unhappy and I'm not sure what evidence you require to back that up.