The Problems With Atheism

[Perfectionist]

The curious thing I find in these debates is that the combatants polarize themselves into two extreme camps.

1/ Religious tradition as fact (choose whichever one you want to insert here)

2/ Outright Atheism based on "science"

I would argue that both positions are untenable.

1/ Religious texts have not stood up to scrutiny

2/ Much evolutionary/astronomical science is founded upon untestable (and sometimes absurdly tenuous) hypotheses.

Therefore, one without any psychological attachment may ponder upon these questions of God a little further. I personally have come to conclusions about the twq extremes.

1/ The Biblical (insert whatever scriptural text here) portrayal of the nature of God is nonsense. It has created an image of God as an egotistical human king.

2/ The theory of life as some random and progressively complex outcome as pure chance is totally ludicrous.

That leaves me (and I suggest a great many others) somewhere in the middle of the two extremes and at great freedom to explore alternative spiritual paths.

Perhaps the nature of God is completely different to anything we've ever imagined. Perhaps our own spiritual purpose is entirely different to what anyone ever imagined; we can only guess what it is.

I have no arguments with religious traditions as traditions. But when they claim ultimate knowledge of spiritual matters and perhaps violently of psychologically enforcing their world view... well this leaves me a bit cold. Likewise, when "scientists" with ridiculously incomplete knowledge based largely on untestable assumptions, start crowing with all authority that there is no God... well they can believe that if they like, but it's foolish, and they know it.

Totally agree ..... believing in religion and believing in God can be two completely different things .....

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

What scrutiny are you referring to?

Scarlets79, could you give me a complete and consistent timeline of all the events surrounding the resurrection of Jesus Christ using the information in all 4 gospels and without leaving anything out?

[scarlets79]

I don't believe that he actually died but that he was in a near death coma type thing. As a result I will probably go to hell even though I respect him as a spiritual teacher. It is so unfair.

Then how could he have left the tomb i.e. pushed the huge stone out of the way & got passed the Roman guard had he been in a state of coma... and all this in just 3 days?

And hell also seems a bit severe to me as a punishment as I haven't done anything that bad. Could I not get a couple of years in some kind of afterworld jail? To me that would be fairer. I know this sounds facetious but it is a fair point. The whole church dogma thing just does not stack up. Maybe that is why people are leaving it in droves.

But you have sinned against God, God has higher standards than humans... Jesus took the hit for your sins & everyone else's on the cross, so only through Jesus can you get to the Kingdom of heaven.

Is there any debate or divergence of opinion or interpretation in your church? Or does everyone just believe exactly the same things? I am trying to determine whether or not there may be mind control going on.

There are different denominations. Denominations agree in essentials but disagree in non-essentials. Your choice of denomination may be due to all sorts of reasons- family tradition, what you're more comfortable with, proximity, country... all kinds of things.

[HOwner]

To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe.

No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

Yes that is true, but we can apply that to anything. I don't know for sure (if fact I cannot know) that the sun will come up tomorrow. There is simply no way that I can know. Similarly, I can stand on the edge of a street that looks empy for a mile either side, and cannot be absolutely sure, that I will not get run over crossing it. In either case, there are scenario's, as unlikely as they maybe, that would turn reason on its head and make what I *know* to be true, be wrong. You can apply that to everything, and if you are going to apply it to the existance of god, you must accept that.

Of course, the majority of people, when crossing a street or considering whether the sun will come up tomorrow have to make a judgement call based on the evidence presented to them. For example, we know that the sun has come up every other day (well, unless you believe the bible ), we know that the chances of an event that would stop the sun coming up would have to fairly rare (understatement), so we *assume* that it will come up. Similarly for crossing the road, we can discount the possibility of invisible cars, direct brain manipulation via radio waves, etc, etc, and we accept that we will not get run over if we cross the road (otherwise we wouldn't do it). Why? Because the circumstances that would change our perceptions and ideas are so outlandish, that there is simply no reason to entertain them (see where I am going here?).

So TO ME, yes it is true there could be a god, yes it is true that you Scarlet, could be a ewok from the planet Endor out for a laugh. Both of those are completely possible, however unlikely (and surely you accept that?). The difference is that you would say one is much more likely than the other, I would say they are both equally unlikely (actually, I would favour the Ewok story since I am communicating with you so there is actually real evidence for your existance).

How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to author one unified message, i.e. the Bible?

Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible is of Divine origin? The odds of Jesus fulfilling all the prophecies are utterly enormous.

They didn't. The bible as we know it was put together from literally hundreds of books, but the Catholic Church.

The reliability of the bible has been discussed by others, so I wouldn't go there, however, how can you, who does not believe that the universe is <10,000 years old, possibly argue about the accuracy of the bible? You don't even believe it all yourself?

[scarlets79]

Scarlets79, could you give me a complete and consistent timeline of all the events surrounding the resurrection of Jesus Christ using the information in all 4 gospels and without leaving anything out?

Let's cut to the chase- why are you requesting this, what are your doubts?

again folks, I feel this discussion is going away from discussing atheism towards discussing Christianity... doesn't this rather suggest that Atheism is an exercise in proving a negative, and thus is a non-position? Where is the evidence for atheism in its own right- does Atheism depened on disproving the Bible?

[Perfectionist]

Christianity bases its truth and its doctrine on the word of God, the Bible.

Not quite, the Bible is the word of "Men" who wrote an interpretation of events with a very biased view .....

Either Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, or He is Lord.

I don't think Jesus was ANY of those .....

No one else in history, except Jesus, has fulfilled detailed prophecies, performed many miracles before eyewitnesses, and risen from the dead. Jesus is unique.

All the other major faiths would say exactly the same thing about their particular "prophet" ..... in this regard I like the theology of Islam which speaks of all the major religious characters including Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus as a long line of "Messengers" chosen by God to preach peace and goodwill to all men etc etc ..... naturally, nobody takes any notice of the "Message" anymore ..... instead deciding to play "My Messenger Is Better Than Yours" .....

Please explain to us what you have to offer to demonstrate your case for atheism, BoomBoom.

Atheism, by all accounts, is actually just another religion !! Except worshipping at the alter of Science instead of God ..... personally I think God created Science .....

[HOwner]

Dude, you are obviously weird !!

Either that or ya just totally do not give a shit about anything and have never pondered the meaning of life, the universe and everything !!

Not really, there are many, many, many more people who would disagree with you ..... not that a majority matters, this ain't a God election !!

Would like to ask though ..... if you had a young daughter that was dying ..... when you are sitting by her bedside in hospital ...... would you be praying to God that she recovers ??

If she doesn't ..... at her funeral would you be praying to God that she is in a better place now ...... or would you think her death doesn't really matter as she was just a bunch of molecules and electrical impulses ??

Actually, because I HAVE pondered the meaing of life etc...

But you are right, it is weird, and it was a long time before I completely stop believing because it becomes so ingrained. But trust me, believing in god to me is as logical and likely as believing in the tooth fairy. I wouldn't pray to the tooth fairy either.

And yes, I do believe we are just a bunch of melecules and electrical impulses

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

Let's cut to the chase- why are you requesting this, what are your doubts?

You were making a point about the contents of the bible being able to stand the test of scrutiny. I wondered if we could test that point a little.

[scarlets79]

You were making a point about the contents of the bible being able to stand the test of scrutiny. I wondered if we could test that point a little.

We can do that on other threads.

again folks, I feel this discussion is going away from discussing atheism towards discussing Christianity... doesn't this rather suggest that Atheism is an exercise in proving a negative, and thus is a non-position? Where is the evidence for atheism in its own right?

[HOwner]

Let's cut to the chase- why are you requesting this, what are your doubts?

again folks, I feel this discussion is going away from discussing atheism towards discussing Christianity... doesn't this rather suggest that Atheism is an exercise in proving a negative, and thus is a non-position? Where is the evidence for atheism in its own right- does Atheism depened on disproving the Bible?

He is requesting it because it cannot be done.

You simply cannot put together a complete and accurate account of the resurection from the gospels, without leaving anything out, without it becoming ridiculous. As in, who went, when did they go, was the tomb open, who was at the tomb, who did jesus first appear to, etc, etc.

Feel free to try it though. Grab a bible, and put together exactly what happened that day without leaving anything out.

[Peter Pumpkin]

Then how could he have left the tomb i.e. pushed the huge stone out of the way & got passed the Roman guard had he been in a state of coma... and all this in just 3 days?

Because he was helped? Not sure.

But you have sinned against God, God has higher standards than humans... Jesus took the hit for your sins & everyone else's on the cross, so only through Jesus can you get to the Kingdom of heaven.

Are these Jesus' words or just some mumbo jumbo based loosely on the bible? Maybe Jesus would have liked me more than you? You can't speak on his behalf. You continue to ignore any evidence or ideas outside of your very narrow dogma. You also seem very quick to judge others and condem them to damnation. I thought Jesus warned against doing that? Maybe you are heading for the sulphurous chute yourself for judging me as a sinner? Maybe your God is not the true God but a vengeful, proud and sadistic invention of man?

There are different denominations. Denominations agree in essentials but disagree in non-essentials. Your choice of denomination may be due to all sorts of reasons- family tradition, what you're more comfortable with, proximity, country... all kinds of things.

I am not sure that is true. I think they have major disagreements on fundamentals.

I suspect that NOTHING I say would persuade you to think differently about ANYTHING. You have made up your mind that you know best and we all need to be saved. Apologies if that is not the case but if it is do you not realise how off putting it is? Can you not meet us half way and accept that some of what you believe might not be correct? Do you think I am Satan (or influenced by him) for daring to argue with you? If so can you not see how insanely arrogant and sad all this is? I don't want to destroy your faith (and I couldn't even if I tried) but it is healthy to question things a bit?

[HOwner]

Atheism, by all accounts, is actually just another religion !! Except worshipping at the alter of Science instead of God ..... personally I think God created Science .....

Errr no. Athiests simply do not believe in god. That is the only thing they have in common. There may be some athiests who "worship science" (although I have never met any), but I have met athiests who wouldn't know a proton from an electron (or a proton from a Mistubishi Mirage!). The whole "atheism is a religion" argument is one that has been created by religion to try and show that we all worship something, so you may as well worship god.

[scarlets79]

You simply cannot put together a complete and accurate account of the resurection from the gospels, without leaving anything out, without it becoming ridiculous.

Grab four newspapers or watch different news channels and you will not have the very exact report from each of them- some will mention things others haven't, others will report from a slightly different perspective and put emphasis on certain aspects whilst not on others...

Are you denying the gospels? Are you suggesting the resurrection is a lie?

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

Actually, because I HAVE pondered the meaing of life etc...

But you are right, it is weird, and it was a long time before I completely stop believing because it becomes so ingrained. But trust me, believing in god to me is as logical and likely as believing in the tooth fairy. I wouldn't pray to the tooth fairy either.

And yes, I do believe we are just a bunch of melecules and electrical impulses

Can we trust the evidence of our own senses?

What can we be certain about in this universe?

What can we know to be true?

Philosiphers and scientists alike are fairly unanimous that the answer to the first question is "no".

How about the other two?

If we cannot trust our senses, then we cannot be certain of the existance of God. To accept the existance of God required an act of faith. Ultimately, so though does everything else. When we wake up in the morning, to even get up out of bed requires an act of faith. We have faith that we will not fall through the floor, that we will not be eaten alive by a giant space weasel and so on.

When you get right down to it the questions of what we choose to have faith in and how much faith we choose to have are entirely subjective and entirely personal. It would probably be best if we were to simply choose to have as much or as little faith in whatever we like so as to cause ourselves as little apparent distress and suffering as possible.

[HOwner]

Grab four newspapers or watch different news channels and you will not have the very exact report from each of them- some will mention things others haven't, others will report from a slightly different perspective and put emphasis on certain aspects whilst not on others...

Are you denying the gospels? Are you suggesting the resurrection is a lie?

So the bible has all the accuracy and authority of newspapers. At least we agree on something.

Yes, the bible is a story.

[enrieb]

I wish to challenge those on this forum who claim to be atheists.

Please answer the following

1. How much of all the knowledge of this world would you say human beings know? Give a %.

2. How much of all the knowledge of this universe would you say human beings know? Give a %.

3. What probability "p" would you give for Christianity to be true... and would your probability, p, be greater than zero or equal to zero?

1. 0.1%

2. 0.000001%

3. as close to zero as is mathmatically possible

Please answer the following

1. How much of all the knowledge of this world would you say Christians know? Give a %.

2. How much of all the knowledge of this universe would you say Christians know? Give a %.

3. What probability "p" would you give for Christianity NOT to be true... and would your probability, p, be greater than zero or equal to zero?

1. 0.00000000000000000001%

2. 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

3. greater than zero

If there is a god type being in existance then this god should not have its existance entwined with the basic early philosphical ideas, fantasys and control systems of man made religions.

Richard Dawkins put up quite a good case for atheism in this video on YouTube.

[Perfectionist]

And yes, I do believe we are just a bunch of melecules and electrical impulses

Doesn't that make you feel cold and empty ?? Is your mother just a biological machine - no different to a tree ?? !! Is human life of no value what so ever ??

[HOwner]

Can we trust the evidence of our own senses?

What can we be certain about in this universe?

What can we know to be true?

Philosiphers and scientists alike are fairly unanimous that the answer to the first question is "no".

How about the other two?

If we cannot trust our senses, then we cannot be certain of the existance of God. To accept the existance of God required an act of faith. Ultimately, so though does everything else. When we wake up in the morning, to even get up out of bed requires an act of faith. We have faith that we will not fall through the floor, that we will not be eaten alive by a giant space weasel and so on.

When you get right down to it the questions of what we choose to have faith in and how much faith we choose to have are entirely subjective and entirely personal. It would probably be best if we were to simply choose to have as much or as little faith in whatever we like so as to cause ourselves as little apparent distress and suffering as possible.

You are basically saying what I wrote above (except you call it faith, I would call it reason, based on our evidence and experience of the world around us). As I said though, if you are going to use that argument for the existance of god, you must also accept that the Moon could be made of cheese, that there could be an invisible dragon standing behind you, and that Scarlet is an Ewok (no offence, just using the same example). Do you believe that those could be true?

[scarlets79]

Maybe Jesus would have liked me more than you? You can't speak on his behalf. You continue to ignore any evidence or ideas outside of your very narrow dogma. You also seem very quick to judge others and condem them to damnation. I thought Jesus warned against doing that? Maybe you are heading for the sulphurous chute yourself for judging me as a sinner?

By God's standards, do you consider yourself to be a sinner?

Can you not meet us half way and accept that some of what you believe might not be correct?

Look, Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life and that only through him you go to the Kingdom of heaven. Now either he is a liar/lunatic or the son of God. He can't be both.

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

Grab four newspapers or watch different news channels and you will not have the very exact report from each of them- some will mention things others haven't, others will report from a slightly different perspective and put emphasis on certain aspects whilst not on others...

Are you denying the gospels? Are you suggesting the resurrection is a lie?

I can't speak for HOwner but that's not what I'm suggesting at all. By the way, to go from doubting the written accuracy of the gospels to saying that the resurrection is a lie is quite a big leap. To me it sounds like you are trying to make a sensationalist point to try and distract attention away from the apparent paradox which you have walked into.

You on the one hand seem to be claiming that the bible represents the word of God and have quoted from it (eg John) as such to back up points you wish to make. On the other hand you are now suggesting that things written in the bible are fallible and that contradictions are due to human interpretations, perspectives and biases.

These are mutually exclusive positions - you cannot credibly believe both of these at the same time.

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

By God's standards, do you consider yourself to be a sinner?

Look, Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life and that only through him you go to the Kingdom of heaven. Now either he is a liar/lunatic or the son of God. He can't be both.

He could be quite a lot of other things as well.

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

You are basically saying what I wrote above (except you call it faith, I would call it reason, based on our evidence and experience of the world around us). As I said though, if you are going to use that argument for the existance of god, you must also accept that the Moon could be made of cheese, that there could be an invisible dragon standing behind you, and that Scarlet is an Ewok (no offence, just using the same example). Do you believe that those could be true?

I wasn't really trying to prove the existance of God. In fact I'm not sure I actually believe in the existance of God. Incidentally, all of the above is entirely possible. Can you prove conclusively that we're not all living inside a gigantic computer program having our senses manipulated by machines so that they can harvest our bodies for energy to keep themselves alive?

Edit (for possible clarity):

What I'm not trying to do is construct some kind of arguement along the lines of "well we have to have faith in these things so we should have faith in God as well" but was merely trying to make a point about the limited nature of our own perceptions.

[Perfectionist]

Errr no. Athiests simply do not believe in god. That is the only thing they have in common. There may be some athiests who "worship science" (although I have never met any), but I have met athiests who wouldn't know a proton from an electron (or a proton from a Mistubishi Mirage!). The whole "atheism is a religion" argument is one that has been created by religion to try and show that we all worship something, so you may as well worship god.

Errr no ..... dude, you are confused !!

The point is what do you believe is the explanation for life, the universe and everything etc ..... religious people say God ..... Atheists say it isn't God ..... so what is it then ?? The only "non-God" alternative is Science = Big Bang + Time + Evolution + Serendipity = Us !!

Unless of course you believe in Aliens or something similar to The Matrix !!

[Peter Pumpkin]

By God's standards, do you consider yourself to be a sinner?

What are God's standards? Have you managed to penetrate the mind of God? Are you deluded or just plain arrogant to think that you know what God is thinking? Or are you going to say that you read it in the "Bible".

Look, Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life and that only through him you go to the Kingdom of heaven. Now either he is a liar/lunatic or the son of God. He can't be both.

He can be both if he likes. Maybe God needs to lie to us sometimes for the greater good. I bet Jesus said something different and has been misquoted. And even if he did say these words I do not think he meant to define his personality as the only way to salvation. It contradicts other things he said. I have little faith in anyone's ability to construct absolutely accurate accounts of what occured years after the event.

You also choose to ignore the politics behind the formation of the church and all the cruelty for which the church has been responsible. If you represent the church, the least you could do is apologise.

You never answer questions properly and are honestly doing more damage than good to your cause. If I was your church leader I would ask you to stop having these debates as it is "driving people away".

Apologies if I am coming across as rude but I feel I have to be on this occasion to make my point.

[HOwner]

Doesn't that make you feel cold and empty ?? Is your mother just a biological machine - no different to a tree ?? !! Is human life of no value what so ever ??

That is just life. We are what we are. It doesn't mean life have no value though. It actually has much, much more since this is all we have.