Price Fixing Energy Prices

[Si1]

It's the free market- apparently.

And there's this;

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/energy-bills-uk-families-face-143538

So to clarify- the French government owns 84% of EDF, and they cap it's prices in France- so the only place they can make it pay is in the UK because our politicians are gullible enough to believe that a six member cartel is a free market and so cannot be questioned.

From the other side of the channel we must look like utter twats.

Yeah all the unemployed in France are thanking heaven that energy prices there are capped and looking over here and thinking what a bunch of twtts we are what with all that employment and stuff, certainly, couldn't agree more

[The Knimbies who say No]

..the simple answer is to ban all wholesalers from owning retail outlets ...in a free market this is a conflict of interest....governments are thick and do not understand poor and possibly unethical business practice...if they understood business , lets face it, the full time politicians would not be politicians..............

All I'm suggesting is that the idea that the profit derived from supplying households with energy is entirely contained in the retail profit figures is dubious when there are other profit making parts of the business which are involved in supplying that energy.

I'm not necessarily against wholesalers being generators and suppliers, but they might as well be straight with people.

[Si1]

France has a strong history of protecting its own industries and companies and if that means ignoring EU rules then they will just go ahead and ignore the EU rules. The French are quite happy to take over UK companies and then exploit their position .

But how much good has it actually done them? Internally they're pretty inefficient and rely on national loyalty to work (thinking car manufacturers). And besides, our shareholder owned energy companies are dominant in north America for example, and that's no more exploitative than this case.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Si1

[alexw]

..the simple answer is to ban all wholesalers from owning retail outlets ...in a free market this is a conflict of interest....governments are thick and do not understand poor and possibly unethical business practice...if they understood business , lets face it, the full time politicians would not be politicians..............

This is actually one of the things being proposed by Milliband -

"As well as freezing prices, he wants to abolish the market regulator Ofgem and force energy companies to separate their generation business from their supply business. This would see Centrica, for instance, forced to split its household gas and electricity arm, British Gas, from its power business, which runs various gas fields in the North Sea."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10333495/Energy-price-freeze-a-flash-of-genius-or-a-crackpot-idea.html

[mfp123]

Yeah all the unemployed in France are thanking heaven that energy prices there are capped and looking over here and thinking what a bunch of twtts we are what with all that employment and stuff, certainly, couldn't agree more

and gas prices in france are about 20-30% more than the UK. electricity prices are cheaper but thats because 80% of their electricity comes from nuclear.

Edited September 25, 2013 by mfp123

[alexw]

All I'm suggesting is that the idea that the profit derived from supplying households with energy is entirely contained in the retail profit figures is dubious when there are other profit making parts of the business which are involved in supplying that energy.

I'm not necessarily against wholesalers being generators and suppliers, but they might as well be straight with people.

They are telling some big porkies alright, centria's wholesale and upstream business has profit margins of 25%. Not bad eh?

Edited September 25, 2013 by alexw

[mfp123]

at the end of the day UK energy prices are cheaper than most of europe.

who cares about margins when prices are lower.

i would rather have private companies making a margin and charging low prices than not for profit companies making no margin and charging me high prices.

if we had the highest prices in europe you might say somethings afoot, theyre taking advantage. but we dont.

Edited September 25, 2013 by mfp123

[The Knimbies who say No]

They are telling some big porkies alright, centria's wholesale and upstream business has profit margins of 25%.

It certainly looks that way. I wonder what the trueprofit/household figure is, after all divisions have been accounted for.

[The Knimbies who say No]

at the end of the day UK energy prices are cheaper than most of europe.

who cares about margins when prices are lower.

i would rather have private companies making a margin and charging low prices than not for profit companies making no margin and charging me high prices.

if we had the highest prices in europe you might say somethings afoot, theyre taking advantage. but we dont.

Now you sound like you have a vested interest- do you?

I certainly care about being fed a stream of misinformation which suggests that the cost of supplying a service is higher than it is, especially when such information is used as industry propaganda to mask true profit levels. Companies who engage in such financial chicanery are not to be trusted imo.

[alexw]

and gas prices in france are about 20-30% more than the UK. electricity prices are cheaper but thats because 80% of their electricity comes from nuclear.

This is because of TAXES.

If we factor out taxes we are at the middle of the price range. But you need to consider that we produce a lot our own gas, so both electricity and gas costs should in fact be cheaper as we source a lot internally. That should always make energy costs cheaper than our neighbours do. Top is electricity, bottom is gas.

Edited September 25, 2013 by alexw

[mfp123]

Now you sound like you have a vested interest- do you?

I certainly care about being fed a stream of misinformation which suggests that the cost of supplying a service is higher than it is, especially when such information is used as industry propaganda to mask true profit levels. Companies who engage in such financial chicanery are not to be trusted imo.

no, i just dont believe in a government sticking its hands into everything.

if an industry fails then it should intervene, but its not failing, the industry is providing lower prices compared to its peers in Europe.

if the government want to act it should do positive stuff like building more houses, building more power stations, going into shale gas, not micro managing things like prices.

[The Knimbies who say No]

no, i just dont believe in a government sticking its hands into everything.

if an industry fails then it should intervene, but its not failing, the industry is providing lower prices compared to its peers in Europe.

if the government want to act it should do positive stuff like building more houses, building more power stations, going into shale gas, not micro managing things like prices.

Fair enough. Are you happy to accept that the household profit figures you posted previously are likely not the full story?

[alexw]

It certainly looks that way. I wonder what the trueprofit/household figure is, after all divisions have been accounted for.

It's impossible to say. They refuse to open their books to ofgem so we have no way to determine it. We do know they mask/hide profits but without those accounts being made open we can't know the extent. All you can really do is disbelieve any figure they state because it certainly won't be true.

[stormymonday_2011]

Really this surprises me. I used to work in the energy business a few years ago and the US energy suppliers were predominantly US companies ... even post Enron. It may well have changed but I still think the vast majority of USA electricity generation and T&D are US owned.

According to this Wiki article the US electricity market is much more regionalised than the UK and there are many many more suppliers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_electric_companies#List_of_US_electric_companies_by_state

Some companies may be dominant in their area but I don't think there is anything approaching the big 6 cartel in the UK.

In fact electrical power supply in the US appears to be a mixture of private companies, energy coops and municipal providers such as existed in the UK before nationalisation of the industry

Companies like Centrica have been entering the US market recently but I suspect like so many UK businesses they might find that the profits they are expecting from that source are likely to be illusory as Tesco found out. The US has a habit of being a graveyard for the ambitions of European companies.

On edit - It is quite an eye opener to see how much 'public sector' competition there is for private energy suppliers in the US. It is quite different from what you would imagine would be the case in US markets

Edited September 25, 2013 by stormymonday_2011

[Si1]

..the simple answer is to ban all wholesalers from owning retail outlets ...in a free market this is a conflict of interest....governments are thick and do not understand poor and possibly unethical business practice...if they understood business , lets face it, the full time politicians would not be politicians..............

Sounds good, except I wonder whether sufficient capable organisations exist to permit this to happen

[The Knimbies who say No]

It's impossible to say. They refuse to open their books to ofgem so we have no way to determine it. We do know they mask/hide profits but without those accounts being made open we can't know the extent. All you can really do is disbelieve any figure they state because it certainly won't be true.

I suppose an average margin would be the best place to get a guesstimate from. Tomorrow's homework...

[Si1]

Really this surprises me. I used to work in the energy business a few years ago and the US energy suppliers were predominantly US companies ... even post Enron. It may well have changed but I still think the vast majority of USA electricity generation and T&D are US owned.

My bad

'Significant' not 'dominant' should have been the word I used

And also by acquisitions if I understand correctly

[Si1]

Some companies may be dominant in their area but I don't think there is anything approaching the big 6 cartel in the UK.

In fact electrical power supply in the US appears to be a mixture of private companies, energy coops and municipal providers such as existed in the UK before nationalisation of the companies.

fair point

At the same time, with a 6th or so of the population, maybe we have a 6th of the companies?

And why is it a cartel again?

[mfp123]

Fair enough. Are you happy to accept that the household profit figures you posted previously are likely not the full story?

well i wouldnt rule it out. but even a carrot and a stick approach such as if you dont invest more the regulators will fine you, is better than im going to fix prices for 20 months. it sounds more like an election promise you hear from governments like argentina.

[stormymonday_2011]

Sounds good, except I wonder whether sufficient capable organisations exist to permit this to happen

I will let wiki explain it to you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel

[alexw]

I suppose an average margin would be the best place to get a guesstimate from. Tomorrow's homework...

That won't give accurate figures though. For instance if an energy company has a sister company based in say the caymans, and borrows from that sister company at a high rate of interest then it's margins will artificially be depressed. Npower has seemingly done something exactly like this.

[Si1]

I will let wiki explain it to you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel

that's fine, so stack up the most significant evidence that it is one then

[okaycuckoo]

Amazed at Milliband's conference speech - humorous, confident - must be on anti-depressants. Very bold populism, so he's the next PM of a LibDem coalition.

A bearded northern delegate in the conference question-zone stood up and told our future PM that fuel should cost "nowt!" In response Ed failed to explain that Utopia means Nowhere.

[LiveinHope]

Amazed at Milliband's conference speech - humorous, confident - must be on anti-depressants. Very bold populism, so he's the next PM of a LibDem coalition.

IMO he is showing signs of believing his own spin - a dangerous place to find yourself.

[PopGun]

That would not be the same EDF that is 84% owned by the French government

http://shareholders-and-investors.edf.com/edf-share/shareholding-structure-42691.html

So much for privatised utilities

It seems anyone can own our energy infrastructure apart from the British people who paid to have much of it built in the first place

Basically a lot of the energy profits are simply taxes we are paying to foreign governments to whom we have handed over our resources

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