_SUNDANCE Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Thanks a lot for the valued advice and for looking into this matter in such a detailed way. From what i understand both the wording and intent of the epc legislation is clear. The wording says it must be provided to potential buyers at the earliest opportunity. There can be no doubt i was a potential buyer having been intererested in this house all the time it has been marketed. I viewed the house 4 times, twice before it went sale agreed and that sale fell through and twice afterwards. The wording "earliest opportunity" in my opinion means after the potential buyer has shown interest but before the make an offer. It would seem meaningless to only be obliged to provide the information after an offer has been made and a short time prior to completion. Infact it was never produced to me. It was passed on to my solicitor. I brought this up with the estate agent briefly the other day but i had not enough information to press the matter. I was told then i could have asked for it. The estate agent said they publish the epc on only some of their listings. If this is the case then there must be a decision at some stage when every house is marketed on whether to publish the epc on the brochure and made known online. It follows in the case of this house someone must have decided not to publish the epc report and even make it known to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 When i did mention about the legalities of the epc the other day with the estate agent i was happily shown a letter from building services by the estate agent telling them off for a previous breach. The message was clear from the estate agent - they see letters and fines from building control as pretty much worthless and they are not worried about paying a £200 fine in the worst case scenario that someone does complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 I got the quote from the ectrician today. At the moment the house has lots of safety issues with the electrics. The quote was around £2,000. Some of the problems were so bad that the electrician said potentially someone could get electrocuted into next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 A lot to think about. The main problem is that with a new baby we want to stay in the town we have always lived in. We want to be close to other family members and especially grandparents. The town we live in has not many houses that fill our tick boxes. A lot of the new build housing estates are not very established in that most houses are rented and people are coming and going all the time. We have two neighbouring larger towns - There are many houses in those areas that would be more to our tastes. Nice houses in nice areas. There are not many established areas in my town. Prior to about 15 years ago we had hardly any established private housing developments in my home town. 95% of houses were council houses. Today most of those ex council areas are privately owned but they are more established in terms of the people who live there than all the new developments in which most of the houses were bought during boom times as investments rather than family homes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotoflight Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I got the quote from the ectrician today. At the moment the house has lots of safety issues with the electrics. The quote was around £2,000. Some of the problems were so bad that the electrician said potentially someone could get electrocuted into next week. The rewire (if that's what you get) will be messy. Floors up, dust, tracking of walls, replastering, holes drilled in ceilings. Very similar job in parents house - maybe a bit bigger & older but closer to £4k 3 yrs ago. But you have the chance to move switches low, add sockets, security & additional lights, smoke detectors etc. The work will meet modern standards and most importantly you will have peace of mind. Great job when finished. Not a negative really, it's got to be done, just something to bear in mind. Hope it all comes together for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelfastVI Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 You're talking a minimum 10K discount from the price you offered to cover the basics. Is it going to be worth doing up an old house which will always be an old house or look for a more modern one without the time and money consuming problems but maybe with less of a garden. Only you and your wife can decide. It is almost as if the selling price didnt take into consideration the state of the property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 The relevant person shall make available free of charge a valid energy performance certificate to any prospective buyer or tenant— (a) at the earliest opportunity; and (b in any event before entering into a contract to sell or rent out the building or, if sooner, whichever is the earlier of— (i) in the case of a person who requests information about the building, the time at which the relevant person first makes available any information in writing about the building to the person; or (ii) in the case of a person who makes a request to view the building, not later than the time at which the person views the building. (3) The relevant person shall ensure that a valid energy performance certificate has been given free of charge to the person who ultimately becomes the buyer or tenant. Any legal eagles out there. I went to the estate agent today to discuss the property but things got sidetracked when he was still made about my opnion from an earlier date that i believed the epc regulations had been broken when i was not provided with the report at the earliest opportunity. Things got so heated that he picked up the phone and contacted building control in belfast in order to prove he was right. He kept maintaining he only has to provide the epc report when asked. In the end the estate agent, myself and the man from building control were all debating the points of law over the phone. The estate agent put us all on conference call. At the start the man from building control said the estate agent acted properly as i did not ask for the report. However when i pressed the matter he was not so sure. As far as my reading of the legislation the legalities of handing over the epc on request is only one part. The paragraph making availabale the report to potential buyers at the earliest opportunity precludes the need for the purchaser to have to ask. Also it states clearly when a person views the building they should be given it then, agian without the need to ask. I was given a contact number in building control in order to get clarification. Any views on this strict point of law and the seeminglt non enforecement of this legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 At one stage the person from building control did seem to concede that i should be given the report but the relevant person obliged to do this was the seller. You would at least think building control would clearly know the law but the guy on the phone had to get the legislation from a file to look through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolacarrascal Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 At one stage the person from building control did seem to concede that i should be given the report but the relevant person obliged to do this was the seller. You would at least think building control would clearly know the law but the guy on the phone had to get the legislation from a file to look through it. So what! You're fighting the wrong battle - reduced your offer yet? Prepared to walk away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigooner Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 At one stage the person from building control did seem to concede that i should be given the report but the relevant person obliged to do this was the seller. You would at least think building control would clearly know the law but the guy on the phone had to get the legislation from a file to look through it. Whilst the agent seems to be a complete idiot by acting that way, I don't think it's a great idea to get on his bad side. Just let it slide for now,and renegotiate the price. This is,after all, the person who will be presenting your reduced offer to the vendor. Reduce the price by £10k or whatever amount you feel, give them a time limit,and of they don't accept be prepared to walk away. If it's been on the market and hasn't sold,its unlikely someone else will come from the woodwork and bid on it. And if they do,they will probably go trough the same problems you are. If you get the lower price agreed and completed,then go back to the agent and argue till youre blue in the face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2buyornot2buy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So what! You're fighting the wrong battle - reduced your offer yet? Prepared to walk away? I agree with rascal. Potentially losing thousands here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Yes i agree the legalities are something about nothing even if i am proved right. However, if the deal fall through i will be happy to tell you why i am so upset about this. I went in today with the intention of forgetting about the legalities of the epc but it was the estate agent who brought it up and was handing over papers to me to show he was right and had done nothing wrong. I am going in tomorrow with a new offer based quotes for repairs i need to carry out. I will be detailing everything and will have quotes to back them up. No idea how things will pan out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigooner Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Much better approach! Let the agent think he is boss, and use him to get your way. You never know,he might be reading this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 If the deal falls through it will be ALL because i was not shown the epc which highlighted all the problems which later transpired. In my view hidden problems. So what you may ask? We are not yet in contract and any party can walk away. True, but the seller does so without any lose. We will be lsoing about £3000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Dont care anymore if he did read this forum. My offer tomorrow will be non negotiable. Absolutely seething about the way this has been handled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2buyornot2buy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) If the deal falls through it will be ALL because i was not shown the epc which highlighted all the problems which later transpired. In my view hidden problems. So what you may ask? We are not yet in contract and any party can walk away. True, but the seller does so without any lose. We will be lsoing about £3000. 3k really? On what the valuation and survey? I think the epc only has to be produced before completion. It could be hard to prove "loss" here because I would guess the problems would only be discovered at survey anyway. I sympathise with you. The EA sounds like a stereotypical EA. Edited January 25, 2012 by 2buyornot2buy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolacarrascal Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If the deal falls through it will be ALL because i was not shown the epc which highlighted all the problems which later transpired. In my view hidden problems. So what you may ask? We are not yet in contract and any party can walk away. True, but the seller does so without any lose. We will be lsoing about £3000. How come £3k - what have you already paid for or committed to? Your solicitor (the good one you picked not the cheap one) won't be charging you much if anything - he will of course expect you to go back to him next time you try to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2buyornot2buy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 How come £3k - what have you already paid for or committed to? Your solicitor (the good one you picked not the cheap one) won't be charging you much if anything - he will of course expect you to go back to him next time you try to buy. Much of the cost would be disbursements. I doubt you've even that far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ride_on Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I agree the issue is not the legalities but since we are here :-)... I hadn't considered the meaning of 'make available', seems that is a bit ambiguous. They could argue that it means they don't have to present it or tell you about it. I do seem to recall a guidelines document that explained it should be advertised with the property. Looking around the web the language does change between 'be provided' and 'must hold'. Personally I think the word 'make' means you have to tell the person its available otherwise the legislation would say 'have available'. Edit to add - googling the definition of 'make available', comes up with 'offer = to make available', hence they have to offer you the EPC... less ambiguous :-) Edited January 25, 2012 by Ride_on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2buyornot2buy Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Any further forward Sundance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 I could not meet the relevent other party today due to understandable personal reasons on their side. I will tomorrow. I have calmed down a lot though. Following my mini meltdown yesterday. I came back from the meeting with the estate agent yesterday and my wife said oh dear what have you said now! She knows me too well. I have typed out a polite and detailed letter for the seller. I have stated the price i had bargained for when we agreed a price did not include unforseen problems which were first highlighted in the epc report and later looked into and found to be very expensive problems. I took back my offer in the light of what i descibed as late information. Thought it best not to describe it as hidden information... Made out a list of these "extra problems" and detailed costings. I did not try and over exagerate any problems and all the costing are backed up by professional tradesmen. I did not include everything in the epc report. Just things i thought came as unexpected surprises. I did say i wanted a liitle extra added on to all the quotes to cover contingencies incase some of the problems are worse than anticipated. This could be the case with the electrics. To paraphrase i said if these late and unexpected costs came to x ammount i wanted that figure taken off my original offer. I would not be getting the house any cheaper as all the work outlined needed doing. We will see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Oh and i have promised my wife not to get into any arguments ( at least for the time being ) on the legalities of the epc reports and who should tell who what and at what stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ride_on Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Good choice on the one-up-manship, don't ram it down their throat, they get the picture and are on the back foot, no need to twist the knife etc. You have that in the back pocket if needed. On the cost, don't just take off the costs to do the work, you are taking on risk of additional costs even if they have built in some contingency. You will also have to put in your time and effort to get it sorted dealing with these people, plus additional costs of your current accommodation while the work is being done. Double it as a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Sale has fallen through. Put in a new offer of £120,000 but too the unusual step of increasing it to £125,000 the following day even before we had a reply to the previous offer. Thought some of the things included in the £120,000 offer were unreasonabe and petty and did not want to come across as people the vendor did not want to sell to at any price. There is a fine line with bargaining hard and alienating the other party along the way. We did not wish to cross that line. Think our offer of £125,000 was more than fair. This new offer reflected the cost of certain work needing done but was appreciative of the fact its unreasonable to expect some of the things to be included that we initially listed. So we were happy to withdraw some of these items from any calculations.. The new offer reflected mostly the costs of updating the heating system and electrical works. We have itemised estimates for these both. However, the new offer was appreciative of the fact that we should also contribute a certain part of the money towards these things. Again any of the things we tried to renogiate the price on were things we put forward as unexpected late information. We entered into the initial agreed price of £130,000 in total good faith of completing the deal. Infact we withdrew the total ammount from a year long fixed savings account when we first saw our solicitor and he said the deal could be wrapped up within a very short time. The penalty for withdrawing the cash from this savings account ( which had only 6 months to mature ) was over £2,000. We are now walking away from the deal minus that ammount and more in fees. The reply from the vendor to our offer was that they would not take a penny less than the agreed initial price of £130,000. Wish we had known that before we paid for a builder, electrician and plumber to look at the house after we had seen the epc report. It would now seem it would not matter what these professional tradesmen had said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_SUNDANCE Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 We would also point out we only had access to the deeds after we put in our initial offer of £130,000 and it was accepted. It was only then that we knew the ground rent figure and covenants. We understand the ground rent may never have been requested and even if it was it would be a small matter. However,legally the leasee can ask for this anytime and moreover request for any monies to be backdated six years. The ground rent is important in that we believe it is used to calculate the cost of buying out the leasehold. Think its multiplied by around 20 times and on top of that there would be solicitor fees and costs of changing deeds.It was always our intention to buy out the leasehold to the house following any puchase. Infact we explicitly said this was the case from an early stage in negotiations. This is another additional cost we had not accounted for. Prior to putting in our first offer we were led to believe during viewing it was only a technical matter of taking over the leasehold for a small nominal fee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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