Neverland Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I agree we are heading towards the 18th century scenario you portray. However, this is a very different position from the one in your initial post, i.e. the 20th century is an aberration. This argument is often used by the complacent or those wishing to excuse the systems that are driving people into these circumstances for no good reason. There is no physical reason why people cannot afford a good house for an average year's wages, except for all the structures that are in place to prevent it. There is plenty of land and there probably isn't a year's man hours in the construction of a house and all its constituent materials, yet people have to spend an inordinate amount of two incomes over 25 years or more (say 15 to 20 man years labour total) to pay for it. People live in misery and squalor partly because of the control and oppression by other people, and the argument that the latter half of the 20th century was some sort of aberrant blip and that things should naturally be more like the the 18th and 19th century is both dangerous and wrong. Well the thing is...its the 2nd half of the 20th century in the West/G7/Developed World that I think is the aberration People living in misery and squalor partly because of the control and oppression by other people has been/is the fact of life for the majority of the people in the planet since time began I kind of agree with the bit in bold, but I don't see any UK political party taking on vested interests to build more houses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 The 18th-20th centuries were a bit unusual as there was a little thing called the Industrial Revolution and a population explosion in the UK which is mostly finished now and likely to peter out over the next century. Given how fast the UK population was growing, it's not really surprising that the stock of housing couldn't keep up. Over the last 60 years this situation has been almost completely transformed, and occupancy rates are around 2.3 persons per property from well above 4 after the war. So how do we get back to your 19th century overcrowding scenario? The population of the UK doubles to 120 million? Half of the houses fall over and are not replaced? ther indistrial revolution saw the development of metropolises and population distributions that just weren't there before - like across the whole of Northern England which was largely a desolate hilly mire until they built Leeds Manchester Sheffield etc on it by the same account, there is still plenty of empty space left to expand into - but i agree our population growth is likely to peter out over coming centuries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Well the thing is...its the 2nd half of the 20th century in the West/G7/Developed World that I think is the aberration People living in misery and squalor partly because of the control and oppression by other people has been/is the fact of life for the majority of the people in the planet since time began I kind of agree with the bit in bold, but I don't see any UK political party taking on vested interests to build more houses the under 40s ARE a massive electoral vested interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaspers Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 the under 40s ARE a massive electoral vested interest Have a look at projected demographics in 2015, you're right…… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Have a look at projected demographics in 2015, you're right…… ooh that's satisfying. cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverland Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 the under 40s ARE a massive electoral vested interest Not when they are divided into: - apathetic - those with huge mortgages praying they don't lose their jobs - priced out segment The second segement vote with their elders, divide and rule...always works in a democracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Not when they are divided into: - apathetic - those with huge mortgages praying they don't lose their jobs - priced out segment The second segement vote with their elders, divide and rule...always works in a democracy the 2nd segment is also the smallest owing to low numbers of FTBs over past decade divide and rule - you wish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverland Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 the 2nd segment is also the smallest owing to low numbers of FTBs over past decade divide and rule - you wish well...i will look forward to new tenancy laws and massive house building programmes featuring in the second half of the coalition government's agenda for this parliament... ....or maybe just some more idiotic statements from muppet housing minister Grant Shapps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 The CPRE state that 10% of the UK is "built on" - this includes roads, etc.... (can't find the link at the mo)...I wouldn't be at all surprised if around 1.5 - 2% was about right.. Maybe there's a reason for that, which isn't all down to NIMBYs and green belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 well...i will look forward to new tenancy laws and massive house building programmes featuring in the second half of the coalition government's agenda for this parliament... Still too soon. The 'born after 1975' age group will become the majority of the electorate in about 2021. The 2015 election will probably be another vote by older people to continue their beloved Ponzi scheme, but the clock is ticking ever louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Still too soon. The 'born after 1975' age group will become the majority of the electorate in about 2021. The 2015 election will probably be another vote by older people to continue their beloved Ponzi scheme, but the clock is ticking ever louder. quite possibly well...i will look forward to new tenancy laws and massive house building programmes featuring in the second half of the coalition government's agenda for this parliament... ....or maybe just some more idiotic statements from muppet housing minister Grant Shapps i think it is a more gradual phenomenon than that infers, so partly agree with your sarcasm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaspers Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Still too soon. The 'born after 1975' age group will become the majority of the electorate in about 2021. The 2015 election will probably be another vote by older people to continue their beloved Ponzi scheme, but the clock is ticking ever louder. Not once my 'pour water on the pavements outside bungalows in winter' plan comes into action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverland Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Still too soon. The 'born after 1975' age group will become the majority of the electorate in about 2021. The 2015 election will probably be another vote by older people to continue their beloved Ponzi scheme, but the clock is ticking ever louder. Ok, so you think you could have to wait up to ten more years for an affordable house or a secure and fair rental agreement That looks plausible, but in ten years' time the world could look very different from the way it looks now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Woods? Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Well the thing is...its the 2nd half of the 20th century in the West/G7/Developed World that I think is the aberration People living in misery and squalor partly because of the control and oppression by other people has been/is the fact of life for the majority of the people in the planet since time began I kind of agree with the bit in bold, but I don't see any UK political party taking on vested interests to build more houses Fair enough. Over the past couple of hundred years, the last 50 have been a bit of an aberration in that sense - increasing freedoms etc. (until recently.) I suppose my point is that there is absolutely no need for it. What amazes me is that, in general, the population just seems to accept that this is the way things have to be. Few seem to sit back and question the total amount (or lack thereof) of labour that goes into building a modern house and the mismatch between that and their price. It's quite shocking when you watch it from you office window. It makes one think. So, I suspect, we basically agree. The problem was that the particular phrase I reacted to has been trotted out to me by lots of people who have "done very well thank you very much" out of the system as a way of justifying their good fortune, why the next generation should put up and shut up, and absolving themselves of any cognitive dissonance that might cause them trouble sleeping at night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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