Are Psychic's Just Cobblers Or Dangerous Cobblers?

[Snow Birds]

It's garbage and anyone who thinks otherwise is a dunderhead.

Until it happens to you.

I was at one of these here Shamanic workshops and I was totally a fish out of water. A veritable petunia in the onion patch. I was only there because somebody else had paid for it and I hadn't got any other place to be. So I got invited to join in and ''see" something significant from a woman's past. I didn't know her from a hole in the ground but I "saw" a very special and unusual toy from her childhood. It turned out this toy was so special it was kept in a bank vault in England (we were in New Zealand). I was totally amazed at my own accuracy and did the only thing that seemed reasonable. I married her and the toy sits on the cupboard by the side of our bed.

[The Masked Tulip]

Until it happens to you.

I was at one of these here Shamanic workshops and I was totally a fish out of water. A veritable petunia in the onion patch. I was only there because somebody else had paid for it and I hadn't got any other place to be. So I got invited to join in and ''see" something significant from a woman's past. I didn't know her from a hole in the ground but I "saw" a very special and unusual toy from her childhood. It turned out this toy was so special it was kept in a bank vault in England (we were in New Zealand). I was totally amazed at my own accuracy and did the only thing that seemed reasonable. I married her and the toy sits on the cupboard by the side of our bed.

Maybe you are soul mates and have been together in numerous life times.

A female friend of mine dated a big hairy biker who had been her squaw in a previous life when they were native american indians and he had been a horse thief

[Rain'ard]

I don't understand why sceptics or anyone who has not had any experiences of this sort of phenomem are so hostile. Why are people who believe they have seen a UFO or whatever considered mad or to be ridiculed?

[The Masked Tulip]

I don't understand why sceptics or anyone who has not had any experiences of this sort of phenomem are so hostile. Why are people who believe they have seen a UFO or whatever considered mad or to be ridiculed?

Lack of imagination?

[Woot]

All mediums are psychics, not all psychics are mediums.

There are plenty of fake psychics around who con and cheat people IMPO. There are plenty of people around who think they genuinely are psychics but are not - some cheat themselves as much as others, some are genuine in their beliefs but have no gift or ability.

I have seen many of the above.

However, as I posted on here in the past and also in PMs to various HPCers, I have seen and witnessed some incredible acts of mediumship which, because of my family background, it would be simply impossible for anyone to find out the information about - names, places, really personal stuff - and be able to pass it on to me.

Alas, unless you have such an experience for yourself it impossible to understand and the tendency to mock or ridicule is understandable.

I believe that each of us, at some point in life, will be forced to confront issues of death and life after death. For most it will come when they least expect it and often it is all the more shocking for those who are adamant that such things are fraud.

Each of us is on a journey.

Well done TMT - a balanced answer to a ludicrously biased question: you gave it more credit than it deserved.

[The Masked Tulip]

Well done TMT - a balanced answer to a ludicrously biased question: you gave it more credit than it deserved.

Thank you.

My work here is done.

[Snow Birds]

Maybe you are soul mates and have been together in numerous life times.

A female friend of mine dated a big hairy biker who had been her squaw in a previous life when they were native american indians and he had been a horse thief

That is my wife's explanation. I feel totally bamboozled by it still, but we get along like a house on fire so I'm not complainin'. I'll get all the explanations I need from the Great White Spirit or Ghanesh or whoever is running the show up there when the time comes.

[Scunnered]

How come you know mediums (plural)? I don't know one. Where do you find them? Or do they find you?

Perhaps TMT is a disembodied spirit talking to us from the Beyond. It would stand to reason that he'd know lots of mediums if that was the case.

[The Masked Tulip]

Perhaps TMT is a disembodied spirit talking to us from the Beyond. It would stand to reason that he'd know lots of mediums if that was the case.

Your are the dreamer, this is your dream.

[Snow Birds]

I don't understand why sceptics or anyone who has not had any experiences of this sort of phenomem are so hostile. Why are people who believe they have seen a UFO or whatever considered mad or to be ridiculed?

Hi old friend. I don't know the answer to your question but I think you have asked the question that is at the root of it all. Attack the unknown? Fear of the unknown? Damn good question!

[rolf]

Some of the tricks these psychic con merchants use, as revealed by Derren Brown:

Also interesting that Houdini exposed tons of fakes and offered money to anyone who could prove their supernatural powers. He even left a codeword to his wife as he went to the grave that not one psychic ever figured out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini#Debunking_spiritualists

Just like religion, some people are so easily fooled.

[Snow Birds]

Some of the tricks these psychic con merchants use, as revealed by Derren Brown:

Also interesting that Houdini exposed tons of fakes and offered money to anyone who could prove their supernatural powers. He even left a codeword to his wife as he went to the grave that not one psychic ever figured out:

http://en.wikipedia....g_spiritualists

Just like religion, some people are so easily fooled.

Con artists usually con money. Does this mean money is a con? Your logic is disingenuous.

[Dubai]

There are a lot of threads lately that have a similar theme... if it can't be proved scientifically, it doesn't exist.

Science, "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment". That's fine, but if scientists don't have the instruments to measure something, nor the imagination to find something to measure, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. How many scientists knew about Quark, Strangeness and Charm 100 years ago?

The bottom line is science is not our saviour... it's a work in progress, and just because science can't see something, it doesn't mean it's not there.

Having said that, I personally believe the majority of "psychics" are either crooks or deluded. 

[fluffy666]

There are a lot of threads lately that have a similar theme... if it can't be proved scientifically, it doesn't exist.

I prefer, 'If the proponents of X whine and complain about how nasty scientists are, then X is almost certainly false'.

The problem is that psychics and mediums make easily testable claims, yet every time that a test is arranged such that cheating is impossible, they fail.

Science, "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment". That's fine, but if scientists don't have the instruments to measure something, nor the imagination to find something to measure, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. How many scientists knew about Quark, Strangeness and Charm 100 years ago?

The fact that as a general principal scientists will admit to unknowns, and scientific theories can be changed, torn up and rewritten is a strength of the process, yes.

The bottom line is science is not our saviour... it's a work in progress, and just because science can't see something, it doesn't mean it's not there.

You cannot prove a negative. Not sure what your point is, though. If the distinguishing feature of your personal theory is that it produces no measurable effects, then don't expect people to go around taking you seriously.

Having said that, I personally believe the majority of "psychics" are either crooks or deluded. 

Well, given that every psychic ever investigated fully has turned out to be a crook or deluded.. there is a trend to observe.

[Guest Absolutely Fabulous]

I might get a dog.

You could do a lot worse, IMO. Besides which, when you have a dog, EVERYbody talks - to you.

[snowflux]

How many scientists knew about Quark, Strangeness and Charm 100 years ago?

Although it seems like they've been around forever, Hawkwind have, in fact, existed only since 1969. So, in all fairness, I really don't think you can expect the scientists of 1910 to have foreseen the band's seventh studio album nor envisaged that it would be so commercial in comparison with their earlier works. :angry:

[Rain'ard]

The reason there is no co-operation for scientific or investigation from the spiritual world is, that people such as James Randy scientific debunkers are in it for the money themselves. Another reason, which is my belief, is that they don't care if you belive it or not. The messeage and the experience is for those that matter and are relevent.

If anybody wants to look the other way and ignore a an interesting phenomemon which is everyones right then that is free will. I think the genuine are not worried about the sceptics because they are the ones loosings out.

Ragard to Snowbirds

[Cogs]

The reason there is no co-operation for scientific or investigation from the spiritual world is, that people such as James Randy scientific debunkers are in it for the money themselves. Another reason, which is my belief, is that they don't care if you belive it or not. The messeage and the experience is for those that matter and are relevent.

If anybody wants to look the other way and ignore a an interesting phenomemon which is everyones right then that is free will. I think the genuine are not worried about the sceptics because they are the ones loosings out.

Ragard to Snowbirds

The interesting phenomena are why people believe this cobblers. None of it is very hard to do and you can buy books off Amazon explaining how if you can't figure it out. Then again, we have horoscopes in all the papers and have had for generations. That there is a not very hard to find entry on Wikipedia concerning the Forer effect never puts anyone off does it. You might think this conflicts with my comments in the religion thread but people actually doing tricks to con other people is a different matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

[rolf]

Con artists usually con money. Does this mean money is a con? Your logic is disingenuous.

Your post makes no sense.

[Austin Allegro]

The interesting phenomena are why people believe this cobblers. None of it is very hard to do and you can buy books off Amazon explaining how if you can't figure it out. Then again, we have horoscopes in all the papers and have had for generations. That there is a not very hard to find entry on Wikipedia concerning the Forer effect never puts anyone off does it. You might think this conflicts with my comments in the religion thread but people actually doing tricks to con other people is a different matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

I tend to agree. I don't discount the possibility of life after death - I think it is possible that consciousness could somehow survive physical death - but consciousness without sensory organs would be so radically different ('through a glass darkly' as St Paul puts it) that I can't see how communication between the dead and the living would be possible or even desirable. It would be like trying to talk to a number or a colour.

I think the best one can say about mediums is that most of them believe they have a gift (in the same way most RC priests would believe they have a gift to turn wine into Christ's blood) and that what they do comforts people, so they probably don't question it too much. I saw a programme on a training school for psychics and you could see they were 'psyching' themselves up into believing they had a gift, because their nan had always thought so etc.

[Cogs]

I tend to agree. I don't discount the possibility of life after death - I think it is possible that consciousness could somehow survive physical death - but consciousness without sensory organs would be so radically different ('through a glass darkly' as St Paul puts it) that I can't see how communication between the dead and the living would be possible or even desirable. It would be like trying to talk to a number or a colour.

I think the best one can say about mediums is that most of them believe they have a gift (in the same way most RC priests would believe they have a gift to turn wine into Christ's blood) and that what they do comforts people, so they probably don't question it too much. I saw a programme on a training school for psychics and you could see they were 'psyching' themselves up into believing they had a gift, because their nan had always thought so etc.

Quite right, not all of them actually know they are fakes. Again, from the archives there is precedent; http://en.wikipedia....iki/Clever_Hans

Transubstantiation strikes me as difficult theological territory even for the believer.

Here is the important bit btw, although the horse story is funny:

Pfungst proceeded to test the hypothesis that such cues would be discernible, by carrying out laboratory tests in which he played the part of the horse, and human participants sent him questions to which he gave numerical answers by tapping. He found that 90% of participants gave sufficient cues for him to get a correct answer.

Remind you of anything? Ahem.

[Rain'ard]

The interesting phenomena are why people believe this cobblers. None of it is very hard to do and you can buy books off Amazon explaining how if you can't figure it out. Then again, we have horoscopes in all the papers and have had for generations. That there is a not very hard to find entry on Wikipedia concerning the Forer effect never puts anyone off does it. You might think this conflicts with my comments in the religion thread but people actually doing tricks to con other people is a different matter.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Forer_effect

Thank you I read from Wikipedia about Forer. The issue I was attempting to convey was about personal experience of the individual and not gullibilty or the generalisation created by readings of zodiac etc, to a mass of people, this is an entirely a diffferent ball game. You cannot reasonably do these sorts of study on people and personalties as the same way you cannot rely on RCTs in the human domian methods, that should be confined to evidence and measurabe certainties. That is the uniqueness about the phenomenom, it extra to out rationale and elusive to the present parameters of physics and chemisty.

[Rain'ard]

Quite right, not all of them actually know they are fakes. Again, from the archives there is precedent; http://en.wikipedia....iki/Clever_Hans

Transubstantiation strikes me as difficult theological territory even for the believer.

There are diliberate fakes and chalitans, but this is a criminal element and nothing to do with geniune mediums who make honest mistakes.

[Dubai]

Although it seems like they've been around forever, Hawkwind have, in fact, existed only since 1969. So, in all fairness, I really don't think you can expect the scientists of 1910 to have foreseen the band's seventh studio album nor envisaged that it would be so commercial in comparison with their earlier works. :angry:

Smarty pants!

[Dubai]

I prefer, 'If the proponents of X whine and complain about how nasty scientists are, then X is almost certainly false'.

The problem is that psychics and mediums make easily testable claims, yet every time that a test is arranged such that cheating is impossible, they fail.  

The fact that as a general principal scientists will admit to unknowns, and scientific theories can be changed, torn up and rewritten is a strength of the process, yes.

You cannot prove a negative.  Not sure what your point is, though.  If the distinguishing feature of your personal theory is that it produces no measurable effects, then don't expect people to go around taking you seriously.

Well, given that every psychic ever investigated fully has turned out to be a crook or deluded.. there is a trend to observe.

I'm certainly not whining that scientists are nasty! My point is best made in the bold comment above.