hayder Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Any chance of link then please, as i've no problem with being corrected! here's one... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus but probably the person with libyan blood who achieved high office. he made his home town "leptis magna" one of the best cities in the roman empire... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptis_Magna this is what i found in google in a couple of minutes. though i do have am old book somewhere with a pretty comprehensive list of all the various senators and men of influence from the "roman empire" who were in the senate in rome... as far as i knew (correct me if I'm wrong), before the rise of modern day "nationalism" an empire usually meant that its subjects/citizens could travel freely within its realms (other examples include the hellenistic period, islamic empire, mongol empire and last but not least the Russian Empire). another 2 examples of non-natives ruling a country would be the turkish (mamluk) soldier-slaves who rose in rank in the largely arab-dominated islamic "empire" and the acceptance of non-russians as leaders of the SU (e.g. Joseph Stalin), the fact that once he was at the top of the power structure in moscow he wrestled control of the country from the comrades is immaterial, since the others on the top of the Soviet power structure were: Trotsky - a Jew Lenin - an ethnic Finn their non-russianess didn't matter one iota since Russia was a multi-national hodge-podge empire (i.e. a proper multi-culti country). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 And Stalin was a Georgian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Someone must have pointed out that Trajan was born in Spain and Hadrian almost certainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anorthosite Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Thank you Cogs and Hayder a history lesson. Very interesting. Can I suggest reading "Rubicon" by Tom Holland? An excellent account of Rome from the fall of Carthage to the end of the Republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 And I think the point is the BNP have no grasp of history, none whatsoever because history does not flow in their direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayder Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Can I suggest reading "Rubicon" by Tom Holland? An excellent account of Rome from the fall of Carthage to the end of the Republic. excellent suggestion indirectapproach. One of the issues that the proponents of the BNP and other extremist groups is the fact that modern transport methods have created a different type of migration pattern to the old days. first of all migration is much faster and more fluid nowadays than before, leaving less time for different peoples to be assimilated. secondly, though historically there were no "passport" and "visa" barriers to entry, distance and the difficulty of moving 1000s of km was usually a barrier to extremely large and sudden movements of peoples. Of course the fact that there was no nationalism also helped... The "magyar" entry into Central Europe and their assimilation of germanic and slavic peoples is another interesting example... the Magyars were certainly asiatic people of completely different background, religion, traditions to the people they conquered... and it took them a fair few years to be "accepted" by the conquered... (some may say they haven't been yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 The English in particular and maybe the British in general are a mongrel race. Each new wave of immigrants brings its issues. With time these will be dealt with. The good will be assimilated, the bad discarded, the stuff in between brought to an accommodation. GB has legs. It has staying power. It has successfully dealt with every issue flung at it in the past, many of which were far graver than that which we currently face. Keep the faith. You'll be backing a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayder Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 indirectapproach. historically speaking you are right. THe chances are that the vast majority of migrants will eventually assimilate and "disappear" (i.e. is no longer a noticeable outsider). However there is also a real issue at play, that is unfortunately mis-understood by the "gross generalisation" of the hysterical media and of course hence by the general public. Saudi funded wahabism has been stretching its tentacles far and wide across the world, it is this wahabism that is the root of al-qaeda and the regressive political-islam that's been taking root all around the world (in both "muslim" countries, as well as countries with some muslim communities). Due to the amount of Saudi money in the City of London (and mayfair), nobody's willing to rock the boat since both the tories and labour are in the Saudis pockets (same goes for the US administrations). This wahabi-strain of islam has caused wars and suffering to people as far away as Nigeria's Northern provinces, Algeria, Iraq and Afghanistan and of course 9/11, 7/7 and the pakistani terror groups attacking India and Pakistani Shias/Christians/Hindus/Sikhs. The problem is no one is willing to confront KSA about this... there's too much economic leverage in their hands. If the BNP ever come to power on the back of anti-muslim anti-immigrant hysteria... you can bet your bottom dollar they will suck up to the Saudis (as the civil service WILL INSTRUCT THEM TO DO) to avert economic calamity on the UK. Which basically means that they would have to accept the Captain Hook's of the world in the UK, whilst beating up some turkish kebab shop owner and deporting him for being a muslim... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Wahabism, Catholicism (no offence to any current Catholics, reconciliation has been achieved), Jacobinism, Bonapartism, Nazism, Communism, wtfism. I mean goodness gracious, we're not even alone this time! Wtf is there for anybody to get their knickers in a twist about. They will be seen off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Catholicism is a case in point. If we can reach an accommodation with our Catholics we can do it with anyone. It's not as if our Muslim brethren are burning people at the stake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_I_of_England#Persecutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayder Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 well yeah. from the UK's perspective wahabism isn't such a major issue since only a tiny section of the population is exposed to their propaganda and preaching. of course in the wider world... its caused mayhem all around the world. With uncle sam saying "saudi is our best friend". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Whatever ... The rest of the world is another thread. I don't have the gas in the tank for that one just now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skinty Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 If the BNP ever come to power on the back of anti-muslim anti-immigrant hysteria... you can bet your bottom dollar they will suck up to the Saudis (as the civil service WILL INSTRUCT THEM TO DO) to avert economic calamity on the UK. I think we'd find that they would go for the economic calamity option please Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skinty Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Better to be poor and free than rich and caged though or do disagree with this sentiment? I agree. But then if the BNP mess things up badly enough we might end up in a situation with even less freedom. The only positive thing I can see about the BNP is that it might give confidence to the main political parties (except Labour) to sort out the immigration issue. But then there are other ways to get this message across to the Tories and Lib Dems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anorthosite Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Better to be poor and free than rich and caged though or do disagree with this sentiment? I suspect the BNP wouldn't bring freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AuntJess Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 here's one... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus but probably the person with libyan blood who achieved high office. he made his home town "leptis magna" one of the best cities in the roman empire... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptis_Magnathis is what i found in google in a couple of minutes. though i do have am old book somewhere with a pretty comprehensive list of all the various senators and men of influence from the "roman empire" who were in the senate in rome... as far as i knew (correct me if I'm wrong), before the rise of modern day "nationalism" an empire usually meant that its subjects/citizens could travel freely within its realms (other examples include the hellenistic period, islamic empire, mongol empire and last but not least the Russian Empire). another 2 examples of non-natives ruling a country would be the turkish (mamluk) soldier-slaves who rose in rank in the largely arab-dominated islamic "empire" and the acceptance of non-russians as leaders of the SU (e.g. Joseph Stalin), the fact that once he was at the top of the power structure in moscow he wrestled control of the country from the comrades is immaterial, since the others on the top of the Soviet power structure were: Trotsky - a Jew Lenin - an ethnic Finn their non-russianess didn't matter one iota since Russia was a multi-national hodge-podge empire (i.e. a proper multi-culti country). I know I have come late to this debate - not having read all the posts - and may be on the wrong track here, but isn't the point about foreigners being exalted/given power in a country rather straying from the issue? It is having those from foreign cultures imposing their culture on us, surely? After all Disraeli was a Jew AND a British PM, but he did not impose Judaism on the country. Or am I off the mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grime- skint wouldbe ftb Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 THe chances are that the vast majority of migrants will eventually assimilate and "disappear" (i.e. is no longer a noticeable outsider). er, you obviously haven't visited any of our major cities in tthe last 10 years, or you would have noticed that it is the English who have disappeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AuntJess Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I suspect the BNP wouldn't bring freedom. No. I fear they are equally as intolerant as Islam, but it isn't 'done' to make these comparisons, however glaringly obvious their similarities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AuntJess Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 THe chances are that the vast majority of migrants will eventually assimilate and "disappear" (i.e. is no longer a noticeable outsider). This happened in the past when: A] There were a few at a time coming in. B] They comformed to British dress codes - in the main. As an increasing number of Muslims are going out of their way to stand out in a crowd - you don't get much more obvious than being dressed top to toe in a dust sheet - I think merging into a Brit. background is a long, long way off. In terms of politically, they show no signs of fitting in. Insisting on Sharia law - outdated and most defo. unPC - is not 'fitting in'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 "Don't make the mistake in thinking that Islam will bend or accommodate." That's what the people who participated in the Gordon riots of the 18th century probably thought about Catholicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AuntJess Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 If we compare Christianity - or even just Catholicism - with Islam from 15th century onwards, we will find that there have been major changes in the former, but none at all in the latter. I reckon if 500 years hasn't seen any changes, there's not much hope for the next 500... or even 100. Most dictatorships perish eventually. Look at history, from Ghengis Khan and before, to Hitler. Islamic totalitarianism isn't changing now, It is blackmailing democracy - by appealing to its tolerance - to allow them to impose their archaic laws and customs on 21st century civilisation. Tolerating the intolerant, tends to make a mockery of all those people who died/suffered for - religious freedom; the right to vote -whether working man or female; and the right to choose one's sexual partner, to name but a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 You have obviously not been paying attention ******, I did a couple of weeks ago If you really want to know you will have to read through them all. ps I am still not inviting you to stay though, its a very select appartment block and racists are not welcome So, where does a strongly pigmented racist and people hater like you sleep then? You put your closet the local bridge and doss in there? Thank you for the new sig btw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grime- skint wouldbe ftb Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 just for a bit of light relief, this guy is brilliant... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyV4kpKvWHY...feature=channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_RaCTBZPtM...feature=channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayder Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 2. With respect, you seem to be trying to suggest that the Wahabi-strain of Islam isn't representative, where as the others, are some how better? (So who do you square the circle with the abhorrent customs and rituals which have grown up (as I mention) around it and are accepted by those which follow the indoctrination as being part of the cloak of Islam?3. Thirdly er no. I think if the BNP were to gain power the Turks are more likely to be accepted by the BNP than some white grown clad fatty and his numerous gang of ninjas walking ten steps behind (although both to be fair wouldn't really be accepted here). And as for this: 'historically speaking you are right. The chances are that the vast majority of migrants will eventually assimilate and "disappear" ', where have Muslims (who have er integrated) in any country they have gone to actually done this without taking their abhorent rituals and customs with them (or at least toned them down to be accepted by the public in that host country)? This last statement you make is so dangerous, that it has a Chamberlin quality about it, I would suggest! It might sound a nice decent humanist sentiment laden statement to make while you drink coffee outside some London coffee house, but back in the real world with countless thousands, nah hundreds of thousands of examples are suggesting otherwise you are barking up the wrong gum tree I would respectfully suggest. Edit:Clarity. bulltraderpt. I will answer a couple of your points. wahabism as far as i know is "official" only in a couple of countries Saudi and afghanistan) which together have a population of about 35M that is about 3% of the muslim population of the world. In my work I've travelled to many "muslim" countries including Morocco, Egypt, Turkey, Dubai, Jordan, Syria, Bahrain etc... and really I didn't see the evil-muslim-borg you speak of. Yes some of these places were more "conservative". Alcohol was legal in all of them, and I never had a problem getting pissed... nor did anyone bother me about it. Plenty of women in sexy clothing too in pretty much all of these countries too... (of course there were the "walking tents" too). It seems the most "wahabists" I've ever seen were in the east end of London and in Copenhagen! LOL. I think there's some issues there with these countries accepting the saudi-funded mosques and preachers that the above mentioned countries are wise enough to ban. So I do agree with you that there is a real danger from wahabism and its funders/proponents. But of course your average "muslim" is by and large just a normal person. And shown up by the fact that 75% of muslims in the world democratically elected a woman as their head of state... (whilst only 3% or so live under any sort of "wahabi" law). on the question of integration hmm... I would say that the muslims who went to latin america / north america managed to "fit in" pretty well, and also the ones who emigrated to Singapore. Of course in Europe there's the problem of the "historical conflict" faultline between east and west. But even there, the muslim minorities of Russia are pretty well integrated I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grime- skint wouldbe ftb Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcLSdJNIE6I...feature=channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HghqHqgMncM...feature=channel Heh heh, very funny and much more effective than Pat Condell's humourless ranting imo. Why though is there nothing like this coming out of the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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