roman holiday Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) Hmmmm,I like this. I'm learning a lot. Bill Thank you kind sir, virtual hat tip to you also. Edited August 4, 2009 by roman holiday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill still Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Hmmmm, I guess this is over my head. Bill Goodbye to National DebtHello to blowing it all again and the moral hazard. Goodbye to learning to live within our means. Nope, not a solution to anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggerUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 You don't seem to understand that market prices are found, they are a product of peoples interaction. It isn't abstract at all. The price is real, the vehicle of the market is the abstract process through which price is determined. That just takes the form of a freely agreed exchange. Debt enslaves people by denying them a level playing field in that market, their debt hamstrings them. In principle it is no different to the old company store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggerUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Plus, idealist philosophy is just more fun to read than dry realism. Forums would boring without the Injin's of this world. Long live eclecticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 The price is real, the vehicle of the market is the abstract process through which price is determined.That just takes the form of a freely agreed exchange. But it's not binding on me. The price others are willing to pay for gold might be £12 million an ounce. I can still sell mine for magic beans if I prefer magic beans. Debt enslaves people by denying them a level playing field in that market, their debt hamstrings them.In principle it is no different to the old company store. Oh I agree with this, 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggerUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 But it's not binding on me. The price others are willing to pay for gold might be £12 million an ounce. I can still sell mine for magic beans if I prefer magic beans. It is binding on you, if you contact to swap your gold for beans the contract can be enforced. If you go to the market and ask for something else in exchange, and nobody wants to deal you go home without what you want. Clive Sinclair took his product to market and the market didn't want to know. His wishes counted for nothing. Maggie and Marx were in agreement on that one, you can't buck the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 It is binding on you, if you contact to swap your gold for beans the contract can be enforced. Contracts don't have anything much to do with the marketplace. They are more used in the run up to it. If you go to the market and ask for something else in exchange, and nobody wants to deal you go home without what you want. Right - as it should be. Clive Sinclair took his product to market and the market didn't want to know. His wishes counted for nothing. Ok. That's valuabel feedback he got right there. Saved him wasting his time. Maggie and Marx were in agreement on that one, you can't buck the market. Maggie bucked the market - she ran the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Authoritarian Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) If money isn't backed by debt then its becomes a worthless piece of paper. That's what Bill and others that think like him just don't understand. The reason I run around all day at work is to collect IOU's that people have offered so at some point in the future I get to redeem them when I'm in need of goods and services. Without this underlying mechanism the incentive to go out and work to earn paper money would become worthless; the commercial banks facilitate this process by allowing the money/debt creation process to take place. In the long term gov'ts wouldn't be able to fulfill this role because they lack the profit motive that's the driving force behind most of the useful economic activity that takes place. The money system works fine, its just that the housing market keeps stuffing things up. Edited August 4, 2009 by chefdave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 If money isn't backed by debt then its becomes a worthless piece of paper. That's what Bill and others that think like him just don't understand. The reason I run around all day at work is to collect IOU's that people have offered so at some point in the future I get to redeem them when I'm in need of goods and services. Without this underlying mechanism the incentive to go out and work to earn paper money would become worthless and the commercial banks facilitate this process by allowing the money/debt creation process to take place. In the long term gov'ts wouldn't be able to fulfill this role because they lack the profit motive that's the driving force behind most of the useful economic activity that takes place. The money system works fine, its just that the housing market keeps stuffing things up. Nah it's evil. http://injinsalternativeuniverse.blogspot....tem-basics.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Authoritarian Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Nah it's evil.http://injinsalternativeuniverse.blogspot....tem-basics.html thanks, I'll have another look and post some comments. You won't like them though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Nah it's evil.http://injinsalternativeuniverse.blogspot....tem-basics.html you owe me a beer from 2 years ago...I reckon, with inflation, thats 1.2 beers now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggerUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Maggie bucked the market - she ran the government. Worse than that, she did away with the firewalls put in place after the 30's fiasco. That was my point about Big Bang. It's been government policy for 30 years and has truly bucked things up. Big Bang was the starting gun for this Tsunami of debt engulfing everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 you owe me a beer from 2 years ago...I reckon, with inflation, thats 1.2 beers now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) Worse than that, she did away with the firewalls put in place after the 30's fiasco.That was my point about Big Bang. It's been government policy for 30 years and has truly bucked things up. Big Bang was the starting gun for this Tsunami of debt engulfing everyone. I think you are philosophically confused (who isn't?) A market is a venue where you can get refused. A government is an entity that doesn't take no for an answer. They really don't coexist very well. One of them is moral, the other is evil. Can you guess which is which? Edited August 4, 2009 by Injin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggerUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) If money isn't backed by debt then its becomes a worthless piece of paper. The money system works fine, its just that the housing market keeps stuffing things up. With what has happened to the value of money I can't see the validity of your statement. As to the housing market "stuffing things up", it didn't. That was just the weak point in the dam that cracked first. The world flooded with debased money was the cause. Edited August 4, 2009 by DiggerUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) With what has happened to the value of money I can't see the validity of your statement.As to the housing market "stuffing things up", it didn't. That was just the weak point in the dam that cracked first. The world flooded with debased money was the cause. deleted Edited August 4, 2009 by Bloo Loo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) With what has happened to the value of money I can't see the validity of your statement.As to the housing market "stuffing things up", it wasn't. That was just the weak point in the dam that cracked first. The world flooded with debased money was the cause. No, the real estate market was fundamentally causal The banks made money available the way they did because real estate became an apparently one way bet..real estate became a one way bet because the act of holding it was collecting the rising surpluses created by people's work. Edited August 4, 2009 by Stars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Authoritarian Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 With what has happened to the value of money I can't see the validity of your statement.As to the housing market "stuffing things up", it didn't. That was just the weak point in the dam that cracked first. The world flooded with debased money was the cause. The way the housing market operates devalues the productive economy because it offers a route for making easy money without expanding any effort. The two cannot co-exist indefinately because one (the housing market) is innately parasitic and drains the life from those that have to go out and work for a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggerUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 The way the housing market operates devalues the productive economy because it offers a route for making easy money without expanding any effort. The two cannot co-exist indefinately because one (the housing market) is innately parasitic and drains the life from those that have to go out and work for a living. You could substitute just about anything for housing and your post would stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 You could substitute just about anything for housing and your post would stand. Yep, cos the problem is coercion, not what that coercion is aimed at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggerUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Yep, cos the problem is coercion, not what that coercion is aimed at. You do go on about coercion, force and violence a lot. Care to start a thread on peccadillos. Could give the mods a "roasting" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 You could substitute just about anything for housing and your post would stand. No he couldn't The housing market presently contains a parasitic mechanism - a mechanism which can be used to collect production without directly or indirectly contributing to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Authoritarian Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 You could substitute just about anything for housing and your post would stand. Not really. If people started claiming the air or sunshine as their private property then you'd have something remotely comparable, its a bit difficult to stop others from enjoying these natural creations though. Most people have to add value to pay their way through life, others just use the housing market.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InternationalRockSuperstar Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) The problem with the U.S. economy is the same as the worldwide economy - debt - specifically the interest on the debt incurred when governments borrow their money from banks. nah. you wouldn't give a flying f*** about the US gov't debt if it weren't for the fact that you are forced to pay for it. force is the problem; not debt. The bankers try to get us to focus our energies on irrelevancies. so do you. Edited August 4, 2009 by InternationalRockSuperstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggerUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) Not really. If people started claiming the air or sunshine as their private property then you'd have something remotely comparable, its a bit difficult to stop others from enjoying these natural creations though. Most people have to add value to pay their way through life, others just use the housing market.. Leading on from what you say, we are having to pay taxes for something we produce every day. They may not have found a way to privatise sunshine and air, but they do tax us for the CO2 that we breathe out. Green taxes are the latest wheeze, and it matters not one jot if you support *AGW or rubbish the idea. They will be charging taxes for every day we live next, errrr, come to think of it. *Anthropogenic Global Warming Edited August 4, 2009 by DiggerUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.