Tax Take From City Firms Falls By Half

[D.C.]

I don't see a serial welfare abuser as any worse than those who created and sold toxic debt "packages". Both are a drain on the rest of us.

The bankers are worse.

The thick as pig shit, drop outs don't have the very best of everything our world has to offer, the bankers have all the advantages and their screw ups cost society a whole lot more.

[swissy_fit]

I don't see a serial welfare abuser as any worse than those who created and sold toxic debt "packages". Both are a drain on the rest of us.

The welfare lowlife cost a lot less and know their value (low).

The City lowlife have no idea what scum they are, and wield power via their political chums.

We've always had poor lowlife, they do far less damage.

For me banks should exist to turn the wheels of business, and for nothing else.

Plus they should be continually assessed for their risk and their contribution to commerce, and NEVER bailed out, only retail investors should have protection.

Edited July 29, 2009 by gleeful_expat

[Guest KingCharles1st]

Look you lot, The City keeps Ferrari, Aston Martin, Lear Jet and "Seasons in Style" in business!

I for one feel that is a price well worth paying

[Minos]

I thought this thread was about the City?

I don't claim to have the answers to solve the problems of social deprivation, but I'm fairly sure that destroying blue collar jobs won't be helping.

What's your solution Minos? Does it involve a long train ride in cattle trucks and working on a camp where "Arbeit macht frei"?

You did say you have no distinction between bankers and the underclass spongers. I should have asked what you would do with bankers.

I have no palatable solution. I think it's worth suffering 20 more glorious years of socialist heaven to ensure it's demise. Most decent people will be sick to death of it by then if it hasn't already killed them all off.

[Warwick-Watcher]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/ju...-tax-take-falls

£79.9 billion on education. How many flipping kids and uni students are there?

Half the budget there and have good teachers present lessons on TV linked to classrooms to educate the children. That's what the government plans to do if the bacon flew gets worse.

[Guest X-QUORK]

I think it's worth suffering 20 more glorious years of socialist heaven to ensure it's demise.

We inhabit different dimensions if you think the last 12 years has been a socialist heaven.

[Cogs]

and the city produces what of value exactly

bankers make profit someone else makes a loss - usually the poorest

I asked someone this recently. Apparently they allocate capital wisely and permit price discovery. It is through these two processes that they aid society and also generate the profit that provides their pay and tax payments. Which is kind of ironic because I thought the boom was based on these two things specifically not happening while people received record bonuses. And indeed, in conditions of bust they are apparently still not doing either of those things. So I'm a little confused about it all (not a surprise to many I'm sure).

It would be a little too easy to say they are just greedy and making money out of money, I'm sure they must have some sort of justification they use if only for their own peace of mind. What it must be remains elusive (anyone?).

Edited July 29, 2009 by Cogs

[swissy_fit]

You did say you have no distinction between bankers and the underclass spongers. I should have asked what you would do with bankers.

I have no palatable solution. I think it's worth suffering 20 more glorious years of socialist heaven to ensure it's demise. Most decent people will be sick to death of it by then if it hasn't already killed them all off.

Socialist heaven?

More like plutocracy.

This government has overseen the greatest theft of wealth from the people that has ever taken place in Britain (to my knowledge). The City subverted first the Tories, then New Labour, and worked with them both to achieve this fraud.

Edited July 29, 2009 by gleeful_expat

[BalancedBear]

I had a big row with my mate whose a City banker. His argument was that the City is the UK economy, nothing else matters, and therefore we should do everything we can to save it. As someone who has spent his whole life working for a small British manufacturing firms I found his argument pretty offensive. But a figure of 13.9% means that the rest of the economy contributes a whopping 86.1%, right?

There is all this talk of preventing city firms moving to Switzerland and Dubai, but no-one seems to give a crap about manufacturing firms moving to China and Eastern Europe. When heavy regulation and taxation makes it cost effective to move a manufacturing plant to Turkey its called free market capitalism, when proposed heavy regulation and taxation makes it cost effective to move a bank to Switzerland its called a left-wing disaster. Banks are important, but I just don't understand why politicians seem to think they're more important that other British industries.

This is spot on. The City does not create new wealth, it simply skims a bit off the top for itself. As country we need to do more of teh things we actually want and need, manufacturing the things we consume. If everybody in the world only worked in financial services, we would all be living in caves.

[keeprenting]

I asked someone this recently. Apparently they allocate capital wisely and permit price discovery. It is through these two processes that they aid society and also generate the profit that provides their pay and tax payments. Which is kind of ironic because I thought the boom was based on these two things specifically not happening while people received record bonuses. And indeed, in conditions of bust they are apparently still not doing either of those things. So I'm a little confused about it all (not a surprise to many I'm sure).

It would be a little too easy to say they are just greedy and making money out of money, I'm sure they must have some sort of justification they use if only for their own peace of mind. What it must be remains elusive (anyone?).

"Apparently they allocate capital wisely" - Ha ha ha ha. Into property - a completely unproductive asset? Or were the private equity funds "allocating capital wisely" when they leveraged themselves up to the eyeballs and bought anything they could lay their hands on in the hope of flipping it for a quick profit?

[Rachman]

"Apparently they allocate capital wisely" - Ha ha ha ha. Into property - a completely unproductive asset? Or were the private equity funds "allocating capital wisely" when they leveraged themselves up to the eyeballs and bought anything they could lay their hands on in the hope of flipping it for a quick profit?

many of them have made a large profit for their investors (and themselves) - and who are a significant number of those investors ?

Where banks do do a good job is that they often are able to provide an accessible source of funding - it would be much tougher for people to actually find people with money and to get it out of them at decent rates if the banks did not exist or did not operate as they do. Some of those are obviously good borrowers and lenders and some obviously are not. But we have to have the lending - it funds all sorts of 'worthy' development.

People make mistakes - some of them huge, they also make good decisions as well - so why not focus on some of those too ?

[Rachman]

"Apparently they allocate capital wisely" - Ha ha ha ha. Into property - a completely unproductive asset? Or were the private equity funds "allocating capital wisely" when they leveraged themselves up to the eyeballs and bought anything they could lay their hands on in the hope of flipping it for a quick profit?

many of them have made a large profit for their investors (and themselves) - and who are a significant number of those investors ?

Where banks do do a good job is that they often are able to provide an accessible source of funding - it would be much tougher for people to actually find people with money and to get it out of them at decent rates if the banks did not exist or did not operate as they do. Some of those are obviously good borrowers and lenders and some obviously are not. But we have to have the lending - it funds all sorts of 'worthy' development.

People make mistakes - some of them huge, they also make good decisions as well - so why not focus on some of those too ?

[lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!)]

many of them have made a large profit for their investors (and themselves) - and who are a significant number of those investors ?

Where banks do do a good job is that they often are able to provide an accessible source of funding - it would be much tougher for people to actually find people with money and to get it out of them at decent rates if the banks did not exist or did not operate as they do. Some of those are obviously good borrowers and lenders and some obviously are not. But we have to have the lending - it funds all sorts of 'worthy' development.

People make mistakes - some of them huge, they also make good decisions as well - so why not focus on some of those too ?

show me

[Rachman]

show me

oh, just grow up.

[interestrateripoff]

many of them have made a large profit for their investors (and themselves) - and who are a significant number of those investors ?

Where banks do do a good job is that they often are able to provide an accessible source of funding - it would be much tougher for people to actually find people with money and to get it out of them at decent rates if the banks did not exist or did not operate as they do. Some of those are obviously good borrowers and lenders and some obviously are not. But we have to have the lending - it funds all sorts of 'worthy' development.

People make mistakes - some of them huge, they also make good decisions as well - so why not focus on some of those too ?

You mean create inflation? If you don't get growth where does the revenue come from to service the debt? If the monetary base does not expand where do we get the 6% YoY extra to service the debt?

Please tell me why a high cost economy is good and produces sustainable economic activity.

Also if the bad decisions far outweigh the profits of the "good" decisions then your argument is irrelevant.

[Injin]

oh, just grow up.

While you are at it, can you show me a good executioner?

One who, when he swings the axe doesn't kill people but heals their disease or makes them richer, something like that.

You can't perform a bad action but make it ok by smiling cheerfully while you do it.

[Rachman]

You mean create inflation? If you don't get growth where does the revenue come from to service the debt? If the monetary base does not expand where do we get the 6% YoY extra to service the debt?

Please tell me why a high cost economy is good and produces sustainable economic activity.

Also if the bad decisions far outweigh the profits of the "good" decisions then your argument is irrelevant.

people seem to think factories and manufacturing are top of the world, so tell me, how are those businesses financed - how can they finance their R&D, their new factories, the new hires, the machinery, the products, the distribution network - they could wait till they have the cash - but back off Planet Zarg, that would slow down the development of their (and other) other businesses. Debt can be good, it can be useful, it can help businesses. A lot of people here seem to miss that. If we did not have debt and accessibility to finance, which of many of the world's technological advancements would you like to stop first ?

[Mr Prudence]

Well no matter how the money was made, the tax take from UK plc has dropped 35 billion.

And that is not coming back it is a structural change to the tax base and not part of the cycle.

So the 60 million people in the uk are about £583 worse off each per year.

That means either cuts, tax increases or in the short term printy printy.

[Injin]

people seem to think factories and manufacturing are top of the world, so tell me, how are those businesses financed - how can they finance their R&D, their new factories, the new hires, the machinery, the products, the distribution network - they could wait till they have the cash - but back off Planet Zarg, that would slow down the development of their (and other) other businesses. Debt can be good, it can be useful, it can help businesses. A lot of people here seem to miss that. If we did not have debt and accessibility to finance, which of many of the world's technological advancements would you like to stop first ?

The state holds a monopoly in place by force.

When you have to go crawling to it in order to do even the most basic of things, they aren't doing you a favour.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Injin

[Rachman]

The state holds a monopoly in place by force.

When you have to go crawling to it in order to do even the most basic of things, they aren't doing you a favour.

another tin hatter I see. Just step outside your bubble for a minute and look out of the window at the good things - the schools, the hospitals, the food, the transport - are you seriously suggesting that it would be where it is today without banks and lending. Or are back in social utopia ?

[Guest X-QUORK]

people seem to think factories and manufacturing are top of the world, so tell me, how are those businesses financed - how can they finance their R&D, their new factories, the new hires, the machinery, the products, the distribution network - they could wait till they have the cash - but back off Planet Zarg, that would slow down the development of their (and other) other businesses. Debt can be good, it can be useful, it can help businesses. A lot of people here seem to miss that. If we did not have debt and accessibility to finance, which of many of the world's technological advancements would you like to stop first ?

All of these things seemed to work before the rise of Investment Banks, Hedge Funds, CDOs, etc, etc. Banks in their old, simpler forms worked. Since the Emperor got his new clothes things have become rather disfunctional.

[interestrateripoff]

people seem to think factories and manufacturing are top of the world, so tell me, how are those businesses financed - how can they finance their R&D, their new factories, the new hires, the machinery, the products, the distribution network - they could wait till they have the cash - but back off Planet Zarg, that would slow down the development of their (and other) other businesses. Debt can be good, it can be useful, it can help businesses. A lot of people here seem to miss that. If we did not have debt and accessibility to finance, which of many of the world's technological advancements would you like to stop first ?

So your saying technology can only move forward if we have debt?

Debt leads to technological innovation and long term sustainability?

I think there are problems of exponential growth in this theory.

[Rachman]

So your saying technology can only move forward if we have debt?

Debt leads to technological innovation and long term sustainability?

I think there are problems of exponential growth in this theory.

don't be ridiculous, you KNOW that's not what I am saying. And I also know you know exactly what I was saying.

Is there a point (other than the obvious) to trying to get me to say something you can take to pieces.... ? Should I get my tin hat too ?

[Bloo Loo]

people seem to think factories and manufacturing are top of the world, so tell me, how are those businesses financed - how can they finance their R&D, their new factories, the new hires, the machinery, the products, the distribution network - they could wait till they have the cash - but back off Planet Zarg, that would slow down the development of their (and other) other businesses. Debt can be good, it can be useful, it can help businesses. A lot of people here seem to miss that. If we did not have debt and accessibility to finance, which of many of the world's technological advancements would you like to stop first ?

at the moment, finance is a bit tight, money being used to shore up the bankers balance sheets....I guess they may have lent a little too much to people who couldnt pay it back.

[lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!)]

don't be ridiculous, you KNOW that's not what I am saying. And I also know you know exactly what I was saying.

Is there a point (other than the obvious) to trying to get me to say something you can take to pieces.... ? Should I get my tin hat too ?

who made the tin hat