Morocco - My Next Target

[dogbox]

Dogbox,

I am new to this forum. The Saidia resort sounds very interesting. I am looking for an overseas year round holiday home that i can use for myself and also rent out and potentially make a return from over the years. The resort ticks this box. Even if this doesn't bring the returns you are hoping, it will still be a very nice place to escape to.

However, can you advise the best way to get to the resort?

From my limited research, easyjet fly to Marakesh which is miles away, and atlas blue fly to Oujda, which looks like the nearest airport, however, these flights only operate from Brussels.

Can you let me know what the best way to travel to this resort will be and what will be the cost of travel? Is this a boat from spain and then a car drive to the resort?

Thanks.

As u say, getting there now is a bit convoluted. Im hearing low budget flights into Oudja to begin this summer (various press reports suggest this including one citing Ryan Air) although personally I have a hunch they may not start so soon.

Im very confident at least one low cost operator will want to secure this soon to be lucrative route.

As for the best route now, I wouldnt like to say.

Dogbox, couple of other questions.

Not sure if I have overlooked something obvious, but I am not sure why you will get sun even in winter on the roof terace, when buying the single storey 'hibiscus' villa?

I also note that most of the villas fronting the golf course are more expensive and have been reserved for phase 1 only leaving phase 2.

Which kind of view have you gone for?

Thanks.

Hibiscus has the very large roof terrace so some Sun should be available in winter. I tried to ensure I was adjacent the road on a bend so no (or limited) shade would be present. I also aimed for a plot where other Hibiscus villas surrounded as oposed to the double story properties.

I went for an inner property as those directly onto the golf were too expensive. I went for phase 1 as the particular property was a good deal and met my criteria.

Some say aim for a South / S West facing garden, but you need to consider neigbouring property heights.

Note the 'inner' ring properties will be raised over 1m above the outer ring.

With regard to rental returns, nothing is certain so I havent counted my Chickens. Im confident the capital growth will be robust and like you will use it myself. We always holiday in quality villas with pool. From Sardinia to Greece and Menorca, we find the well located villas with pool always get booked - up very early and always command very substantial rents, so fingers crossed the rent will be reasonable.

[Roshan]

Hi all,

Can anyone supply any links for similar complexes in Spain/Portugal to compare prices. ie does anyone know any golf & beach resorts in spain, maybe with multiple golf courses?

thanks

[dogbox]

Hi all,

Can anyone supply any links for similar complexes in Spain/Portugal to compare prices. ie does anyone know any golf & beach resorts in spain, maybe with multiple golf courses?

thanks

Hi Roshan

www.aphroditeleisure.com

Its in Cyprus. Has a single 9 hole course and nothing like the facilities (no designer shops, no marina, no beach etc etc).

The basic villas seem to start around £500 per week rising to £2000+ per week for the better spec.

Ive asked a few Golf specialist agents and they all tell me there is no other site they know of in the Med with the level of facilities Saidia will have, so its a real unknown.

Im hoping 3 types of people will be attracted;

1) Ordinary holiday makers wanting a luxury villa in tranquil green setting right by the beach

2) Golfers attracted to not 1 but 3, 18 hole courses year round

3) 'Gucci & glamour' crowd. Not really my thing but the site will have 60 designer outlets around a posh 800 berth marina, big named bars such as 'Budha bars' and 20 up market restaurants. 20 luxury club houses. Amazing sports facilities inc small athletics stadium, small football stadium, olympic pool, gym, aqua parks (not chavvy ones), wellness centre, polo pitch etc. Also helipads, fully maintained properties and pools, on site Swiss rental agency.

On top of this within the grounds are 8 (some say 11) up market leading hotels being built by big named chains and a 1000 seat conference centre. All these people will be exposed to the rental properties which they may book for future stays. So thats another plus in terms of the available market.

Id settle for £8000 pa rent but some people are quoting as high as £40000 pa on a £180000 outlay. Well see.

Edited May 9, 2006 by dogbox

[dogbox]

Question for all u techies:

Ive purchased 15 domain names including villamorocco and golfmorocco.

Will this benefit me?

[euroscooby]

Ryanair have just put Oujda on their website........mind you i cannot work out which airport in the UK you can fly from! Still looks like an excellent sign. We are also buying on Le Jardin de fleur, mind you we can only afford an apartment but at £120k happy enough

[dogbox]

Ryanair have just put Oujda on their website........mind you i cannot work out which airport in the UK you can fly from! Still looks like an excellent sign. We are also buying on Le Jardin de fleur, mind you we can only afford an apartment but at £120k happy enough

This is truly momentus news. The new motorway will put transfer time at about 20 mins.

Same fly time almost as La Manga on the opposit coast in Spain yet 4,4 x cheaper for a far better resort. LM has no real beach, no marina and vastly less facilities. Bring it on!

[scotty]

This is truly momentus news. The new motorway will put transfer time at about 20 mins.

Same fly time almost as La Manga on the opposit coast in Spain yet 4,4 x cheaper for a far better resort. LM has no real beach, no marina and vastly less facilities. Bring it on!

just checked the Ryanair website as I read that they had secured landing spots at Oujda. They have introduced one route from Marsailles - not sure on the cost. But at least this is a start.

DB - you asked about the domain names. Getting some of the prime names like golfmorocco.com will allow you to advertise (I was also thinking about such domains), although unless you plan to use them all I don't know why you'll need so many, you only have the one villa and programmed correctly, they will come up via a google search.

Very interseting set of comments from you all

[dogbox]

DB - you asked about the domain names. Getting some of the prime names like golfmorocco.com will allow you to advertise (I was also thinking about such domains), although unless you plan to use them all I don't know why you'll need so many, you only have the one villa and programmed correctly, they will come up via a google search.

Very interseting set of comments from you all

My Brother runs his own company specialising in maximising net prescence (if that is the correct term). He advised me to get as many domains as possible as the more I have the more 'pointers' will direct traffic to my site as a result of searches.

[Radio]

dogbox, you are a little disingenuous to compare this with Aphrodite Hills in Cyprus.

Firstly, Aphrodite Hills is 18 holes (not 9 as you say) and whilst not having the proposed facilities that are planned for Saidia, it does have a spa, tennis courts, luxury hotel and restaurants and it is up and running.

If you don't want to move very far then the Morrocan development sounds fine, but hiring a car in Cyprus puts two other golf courses within 20 minutes, plus shopping malls, restaurants, beaches, a water park, sub aqua, micro lighting, historical sites etc. (even paint balling !). In addition there are regular flights to Larnaca and Paphos.

You can't really compare the two locations. Aphrodite hills is a going concern. Saidia may be one for the future, but you need to take a long term view.

As for getting £40,000 annual rent on a £180,000 property, well, I think it very unlikely !.

[dogbox]

dogbox, you are a little disingenuous to compare this with Aphrodite Hills in Cyprus.

Firstly, Aphrodite Hills is 18 holes (not 9 as you say) and whilst not having the proposed facilities that are planned for Saidia, it does have a spa, tennis courts, luxury hotel and restaurants and it is up and running.

If you don't want to move very far then the Morrocan development sounds fine, but hiring a car in Cyprus puts two other golf courses within 20 minutes, plus shopping malls, restaurants, beaches, a water park, sub aqua, micro lighting, historical sites etc. (even paint balling !). In addition there are regular flights to Larnaca and Paphos.

You can't really compare the two locations. Aphrodite hills is a going concern. Saidia may be one for the future, but you need to take a long term view.

As for getting £40,000 annual rent on a £180,000 property, well, I think it very unlikely !.

You make some valid points.

When I did my research I called rental agencies. They informed that villas on - golf and on beach are in the highest demand but very short in supply throughout the med. There are many good golf courses in Spain but it is rare to find a decent beach on site. Saidia will have not 1 but three 18 hole courses right on a 7km beach. If this isnt enough there are 20 up market restaraunts, 17 up market beach bars and 60 shops including many international designer brands. Add to that THE 800 BERTH MARINA and you get an even headier mix. On top of that there will be a huge array of top sports and fitness facilities, niot the usual pool and small gym most developments have.

2 Carrefour supermarkets are being built within this walled development, not 1, 2. These guys are big players and would not be investing so much without a bloody good reason for so doing.

Saidia is very much planned as a top draw designer resort totally incomparible to anything in Cyprus.

The flight times are very attractive. I realise Morocco wont peak for a few years but thats exactly why Im buying now.

Cyprus although nice is over supplied. Indeed one of people I know who is also buying in Saidia Morocco is Greek Cypriot, and he went to Cyprus with a view to investing but his Greek cousins told him rents were becomming difficult due to oversupply.

The biggest problem facing Morocco currently is image.

But as we all know image can change overnight and yesterdays uncool rara skirt can become tomorrows high fashion.

Ill settle for £10000 pa rent but I can see it becomming a lot more. There are only a couple of thousand private residences being built, yet the development aims to attract 500,000 pa by 2010. The 8 hotels guests will be exposed within the same site to the rental properties.

It really is a unique proposition.

[selina]

Good luck mate.

I had the misfortune to visit Morocco in 1983.It was the worst place I have ever visited in my life.Tangiers is like some biblical hellhole.

Property may be cheap,but with good reason.The only person you will be selling to is someone more stupid than yourself.

Stick with Berlin.I can't believe you've bought everything there yet.

Listen mate

I don't think you know what your talking about. Are you sure! 1983, that's 23 years ago, wars have been fought, new nations invented and life goes on. The only misfortune here mate, is that Morocco had to put up with the likes of you.

I can't believe you are judging a place you visited 23 years ago. So much has changed in 23 years. You talked about Morocco being a muslim state, it is the most democratic muslim country out there. Religion doesn't really play a big part of moroccan life and even if it does in some parts, they practice religion peacefully.

You can't judge a country on what they believe in. Terrorism can happen anywhere as we found out in July 2005 in the centre of London. So no country is free from terrorist attacks - muslim or otherwise.

People have to make a living and if they do approach you all you have to say is no and move on. It's not like it used to be many years ago. People are getting used to travellers and tourists and it is very safe and organised now.

I remember going to Morocco five years ago and on the boat over 99% of the people were Moroccan, but now its 98% tourists and 2-3% Moroccans.

Just a few of many examples - bought a place in Saidia last year and re-sold it for a profit of fifty thousand Euros within 3 months. Also, bought off plan in Tangier and made over 30000 Euros in one year. I don't think you can make as much in Bulgaria. Even the name sounds Russian and not many people want to spend their well deserved holidays in Russia. Puts me off everytime.

Rental for example in Tangier a nice 2 bed 2 bath apartment near the beach can be rented all year round for abou 1000 pounds a month and that's to locals.

I think you should revisit Morocco and reconsider your verdict on it because you are losing out on a lot of money and if you are as arrogant as you seem to be - I hope you don't revisit.

Also, motorways are being built all around Morocco and will be complete in 2009.

What I look for in a holiday is cheap flights and luxury accommodation, which I don't mind paying for. I refuse to pay for expensive 3 hour flights (and i bet everyone agrees). I would rather pay for the accommodation.

To me there is very little difference between Spain and Morocco with regards to scenery and accommodation, Morocco has the best unspoilt beaches I have ever seen and transport links are good. Unfortunately, there is poverty in Morocco, but that is changing. People are trying to keep their head above water and can only do this with continued investment in both commercial and tourism. How is a country supposed to do this if people like you have small minds and imagination.

What was Spain like 30 years ago - do some homework on that one.

Morocco is beautiful and it will be your mis-fortune not Morocco's.

Small mind = small money - DO YOUR HOMEWORK MATE!

[tinecu]

I urge you to be aware of the consequences of investing in such places as Saidia. The luxury resorts in Spain are just as much an incongruous eyesore as the Benedorms. Please try not to help make another souless enclave for the rich in what is a beautiful country with a rich and vibrant culture.

The 'if I don't someone else will' argument doesn't negate the negative impact of such investments.

There are many more noble investments to be made around the world that will improve the lives of many and deliver you a profit.

Property speculation has helped create the mess we are in in the UK, lets not pro-actively cause more trouble for our North African cousins by fueling more mini-bubbles over there.

Money in itself is neither good or bad its what you do with it that matters!

[selina]

That's your opinion.

Have you been to Saidia or are you speculating. Saidia is very under developed and will only have the one resort that Fadesa are undergoing. There will be no eyesores in the region because there are regulations in place to stop that. The only developments that are backed by the government are 7 in total.

All will be luxurious and affordable and not forgetting the positive impact it will have on poverty, so people do not feel the need to leave their country for Spain or any other European country for that matter.

It is a very beautiful, calm and friendly country and is increasing in popularity, which is good for the economy and the people of the country. They do not want CHARITY, but INVESTMENT and if people continue to be negative about something they cannot understand, well that's up to their loss.

It is so diverse that you will not find any other country that offers anything so unique.

Regards

I

I urge you to be aware of the consequences of investing in such places as Saidia. The luxury resorts in Spain are just as much an incongruous eyesore as the Benedorms. Please try not to help make another souless enclave for the rich in what is a beautiful country with a rich and vibrant culture.

The 'if I don't someone else will' argument doesn't negate the negative impact of such investments.

There are many more noble investments to be made around the world that will improve the lives of many and deliver you a profit.

Property speculation has helped create the mess we are in in the UK, lets not pro-actively cause more trouble for our North African cousins by fueling more mini-bubbles over there.

Money in itself is neither good or bad its what you do with it that matters!

[tinecu]

Salina

I can only imagine that you have vested interests in property development in Saidia.

The properties will not be affordable by the vast majority of local residents.

I wonder if the environmental impact has been looked at? For starters there enough water?

I wonder also what the Algerians will think of this playground for rich infidels on their doorstep?

None too happy I imagine!

Morocco already has enough of this type of development in Agadir and elsewhere.

Saidia has already been a ghost town (after the Algerian border was closed) and will be again after this little developers' dream has withered on the vine.

I agree with you that Morocco doesn't want or need charity, but it needs sustainable development for all not get rich quick schemes for the few.

[euroscooby]

I wonder also what the Algerians will think of this playground for rich infidels on their doorstep?

Probably "I wonder how we can sneak over the border and play!"

[Guest muttley]

You talked about Morocco being a muslim state

No I didn't. Don't put words into my mouth

I didn't talk about religion, terrorism or visitor safety either. You projected that onto me.

I never advocated buying in Bulgaria either.

I just said Morocco was a dump. It seems to have touched a nerve though.

[BigLog]

I just said Morocco was a dump. It seems to have touched a nerve though.

But that's like me touching a nerve with the English and saying;

The women are easy and sleep around with many boyfriends, the men are soft and have no guts, they all drink too much alcohol, the people are too cold and not friendly (only when they're on holiday they want to know you), they put their parents into Nursing homes and forget them, all they talk about is the value of their houses.......

Easy eh ?

You can't judge ALL of Morocco just by a 24year old visit to Tangiers.

That's like me judging all of the USA with my impressions of arriving in New York Central Park Underground station. Or at Trailways coach station in Detroit. Neither of those were nice - but they were nearly 20years ago.

I live in Morocco and I can tell who here is telling the truth and who isn't. Or rather who is more accurate than the other.

Tangiers, when you arrive there by boat isn't nice. At least I didn't find it that pleasant. The Hustlers and hoards of people that I saw only a few years ago as I came off by car was a bit of a shock experience. But then nothing terrible happened, and no one harmed me. It wasn't hell. Maybe 23years ago it might well of been......

I know of someone who hasn't been to Morocco for over 30+ years, and to this day he still calls it a Hell-hole. So Mutley, you are not the first person to have called it that in my experience ! But I think you need to be a bit more realistic with your experiences of long ago.

I think the famous Michael Caine also called it the worst place he has EVER been to on Earth !

Anyway, I suppose it depends what sort of person you are. You can either hide yourself from these things and never experience them, living a life in cotton wool and switching the TV over whenever anything slightly distasteful distresses you, or you can look at it face on and even be part of the change.

I take my hat off to Dogbox, but I do think Dogbox that are hyping this all up from nothing. Saidia's beach, in fact any beach in Morocco, is NOTHING to shout about. In fact they are all pretty polluted places. Lots of broken glass and litter everywhere. And I mean everywhere. So whoever said (and I think it was Dogbox and Salina) that Morocco has some of the best beaches in the world a) doesn't know what they are talking about lieing c) hasn't seen a single beach in morocco or d) hasn't much experiences of beaches around the world.

Saidia and it's 60 Gucci shops isn't going to cut it in my opinion, and you cannot compare golf in La Manga with the future Saidia as La Manga is THE EPICENTRE of the Spanish Golf scene. Saidia is pretty barren. Adding however many golf courses isn't going to make it comparible to La manga overnight if ever.

BUT.

I am NO businessman and I can't tell what it'll all end up like in the future so yous makes your choices, places your bets and crosses your fingers.

To, Salina I think it is, Tangiers 2bed/2bath appartment, £1000 per month ?? all year round ?? to locals ??

Yeah, right. BS.

I personally do think Morocco has a very good future, but it'll take many, many years. As others have said, it's the nearest place other than Europe, it is mystical, it has a lot to offer holiday makers. But it HAS to clean up it's act. It HAS had a bad reputation in the past but that has been due to poverty and the poverty has been due lack of education and/or those in power being too thick/greedy/corrupt to fix things when they really should have known better and done something to help these people help themselves.

Look at Turkey. Just 15years ago hardly anyone went there for holidays - and now, I'd say it's one of the most beautiful destinations around. There is plenty of corruption there. But they have managed to clean up their image, and to market and sell themselves.

Finally, I don't agree with Salina at all that Morocco isn't a very religous place. In my experience their religion is 80% their life and their lifestyle if pretty much lived around that religion.

I'm totally with the sentiments of Tinecu.

[euroscooby]

Do not think anyone believes that it is not a long term play. Of course there is a risk. What isn't? I am far too young to be placing my savings into cash. It is indeed placing a bet, but like DogBox I have quietly got on with my research and am taking an educated investment guess.

Comments like the beach is rubbish may be true. Two points, they can clean a beach and second have you seen the state of the beaches on the Costa del Sol, not pretty.

Many people are looking for top end resorts that offer a 'dream' destination at a reasonable price. I expect many europeans to be attracted to this development. Not everyone wants to wander the streets of Morocco and be cultural. This is indeed a resort for the sun worshipping consumer. Plenty of those around.

So, yes this development may "wither on the vine" and that is the gamble but i believe not. I believe you misunderstand the market for this sort of development. It is top-end cash rich, time poor people. Morocco, Dubai, Spain it matters not a jot. As long as its easy to get too and hot they will come.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr...y=gen-en-250506

Edited May 27, 2006 by euroscooby

[Guest muttley]

But that's like me touching a nerve with the English and saying;

The women are easy and sleep around with many boyfriends, the men are soft and have no guts, they all drink too much alcohol, the people are too cold and not friendly (only when they're on holiday they want to know you), they put their parents into Nursing homes and forget them, all they talk about is the value of their houses.......

Easy eh ?

Not quite. It's more like you saying "England is a dump" and me accusing you of saying "The women are easy and sleep around with many boyfriends, the men are soft and have no guts, they all drink too much alcohol, the people are too cold and not friendly (only when they're on holiday they want to know you), they put their parents into Nursing homes and forget them, all they talk about is the value of their houses......."

I hadn't considered that there could be a terrorist problem until selina brought it up.

I intentionally included the year of my visit (1983) so you can dismiss my experience if it suits you. I apologise for my choice of words which I accept were unnecessarily barbed, but this is meant to be an investment forum, not an international love-in.

[dogbox]

Salina

I can only imagine that you have vested interests in property development in Saidia.

The properties will not be affordable by the vast majority of local residents.

I wonder if the environmental impact has been looked at? For starters there enough water?

I wonder also what the Algerians will think of this playground for rich infidels on their doorstep?

None too happy I imagine!

Morocco already has enough of this type of development in Agadir and elsewhere.

Saidia has already been a ghost town (after the Algerian border was closed) and will be again after this little developers' dream has withered on the vine.

I agree with you that Morocco doesn't want or need charity, but it needs sustainable development for all not get rich quick schemes for the few.

You are very wrong my freind.

Locals benefit in 2 ways; 1) Their own patch of land rockets in value. 2) Local business benefits beyond all recognition from restaurants to cabs, local Banking to fishermen.

Im an enviro - nut and belong to a few wildlife charities. Saidia is a nature reserve and although some clearance is needed for building the site is very eco freindly. Morocco is very sparsely populated and vastly less spoiled than the UK so no real impact on nature will be felt. Water will come from nearby mountains and is not at all in short supply. Morocco has many mountainous areas and some are snow covered year round.

Ordinary Moroccans will benefit from this mass tourism increase just as Greece and Spain did. Your lofty inaction will certainly not benefit anyone.

I apologise for my choice of words which I accept were unnecessarily barbed, but this is meant to be an investment forum, not an international love-in.

Mutley I welcome your input even though you take the opposite view to me!

BTW, to add to the list of international investors, the people behind SUNCITY in S Africa have just announced thier Moroccan projects.

Morocco is unstoppable now, there is just too much captial inflow from the big property and tourism companies to allow failure.

Ryanair are opening up to 20 routes. Big business and Dubai money will have been colloborating with the Moroccans behind the scenes to ensure this happened.

This is only the beginning.

Other large Spannish developers are also now moving in.

By all means dont buy, but also dont for one minute think Morocco property wont boom, only a fool would make such a mistake.

Edited May 27, 2006 by dogbox

[dogbox]

after this little developers' dream has withered on the vine.

'This little developer' as you put it is Spains second biggest developer 'Fadesa'.

They are but one of many large international companies helping Morocco to becomea world class destination.

BTW another 'little developer' here is the worlds largest -'Emaar Properties' out of Dubai. They are building 6 extensive projects.

Things change my freind, few places are set in aspic.

Come join the party. The Guardian reading, cuscus types are buying around Marakech if that sound more your style

[dogbox]

I monitor activity on the Channel 4 forum 'buying abroad'.

In the last few weeks Morocco has become the subject with highest number of topics posted.

Agents such as Superior in Bristol which deal with 14 different nations, tell me Morocco has recently become the number 1 interest in terms of numbers of new buyers.

Im also reliably informed that the low cost airlines are engaged in a fierce battle to secure routes in recognition of the sizeable market opportunity, which they say is largely driven by the closeness of Morocco to the UK.

The developers of Sun City S Africa have just announced thier plans for Morocco to include a casino based mega resort.

[stoaty1]

hmmmmm, sounds like Mr Dogbox might be marketing these properties in Mediterrania Saidia........

[euroscooby]

hmmmmm, sounds like Mr Dogbox might be marketing these properties in Mediterrania Saidia........

Maybe but I do doubt it. The internet is full of discussion forums and buying abroad places that are buzzing with talk of Morocco.

Everything that dogbox has said is correct. I have also done the research he has done. If he is a VI then at least he is an honest one!

I have always noticed that in life it is those with a positive outlook that get the biggest 'kicking'. It is often the same in the workplace, those with a negative outlook often seen as the 'deep thinkers'. Rubbish of course.

I am a UK property BEAR, however believe there is value globally whatever happens to interest rates in the short term. This development has all the hallmarks of a decent investment. It is NOT a sure thing. You can only do what you think is right. I think it is right, and across the net so do many others. If everyone thought it made sense the values of the properties would be too high . Bring on the doomsayers. Throw the enviromental card into the fray. Whatever. As an investment it stacks up better than cash or a unit trust tracking the UK index!

[dogbox]

hmmmmm, sounds like Mr Dogbox might be marketing these properties in Mediterrania Saidia........

I wish I was! Ive actually inadmintantly introduced 4 people that have all reserved on the same development, so I wish I was getting paid!

I think Ill write to the King and ask if I can become a promoter for the tourism ministry.