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Morocco - My Next Target


dogbox
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Guest muttley

hmmmmm, sounds like Mr Dogbox might be marketing these properties in Mediterrania Saidia........

dogbox is a long term poster on this site, and has changed from UK property bull to UK property sceptic.I like to read his posts because they are usually insightful and honest. He may have switched his sights to overseas, but I'd be amazed to discover that he is a Morroco property marketing dummy (Unlike others on this thread)

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The same at La Manga in Spain would be £1m +.

I went for an inner property as those directly onto the golf were too expensive.

Your villa isn't actually on the golf course? Had a quick look on the web, and here's what sounds a comparable villa (probably a lot nicer), directly on the golf course in La Manga, with an asking price of £620k: http://lamangaclubresales.datagate.net.uk/...dule.asp?ID=206 - You say that 'those directly on the golf course were too expensive', which implies a high premium for villas that are actually on the golf course, so let's knock off a conservative £120k for a villa that isn't actually on the golf course. Thus a comparable property in Spain costs less than £500k (at the top of the spanish property bubble), rather than 'over £1 million pounds'. You're more than half a million pounds out! For your sake, hopefully the rest of your calculations are somewhat more accurate...

Spain is also closer, a lot safer & more desirable than Morocco. It's just as well you're buying in a 'totally safe gated development', from the FCO travel advice, let's hope they're big strong gates, and security guards with guns come included! If you're a woman, you better like staying within the gates :unsure: Sounds too dangerous to go out on your own.

The whole thing sounds very risky when the best you can reasonably hope for is doubling your money. Scary risk/reward ratio, but good luck anyway. Your best bet is perhaps flipping the place, which is what it looks like you're going to do.

Was wondering about all the new members posting in this thread, whose deep interest in becoming BTL speculators in Africa has led to them joining a site about a UK house price crash, until reading this little gem:

My Brother runs his own company specialising in maximising net prescence (if that is the correct term).

:rolleyes:

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DO YOUR HOMEWORK MATE!

Following your suggestion, have done a little bit of homework on Morocco, and am wondering about earthquakes such as this one: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4358425/ - It sounds as though there is a high incidence of earthquakes in the region, so much so that anyone considering holding a property long term in Northern Morocco will experience the effects of one.

A couple of questions selina:

- Are there building regulations enforcing a minimum strength of new builds in Morocco? If so, where on the richter scale is this strength limit? (as a 6.5 took out the block of new looking flats in the link above, if a limit exists, it must be less than 6.5?)

- Is it possible to get earthquake insurance in Northern Morocco? If so, how much does it cost for a new build villa?

Given your strong vested interest in selling property in the area, I hope you won't be offended if I ask you to provide links to web pages with this information on. My french is pretty good, and a friend of mine is fluent in Arabic, so language isn't a problem.

Many thanks,

LI

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Your villa isn't actually on the golf course? Had a quick look on the web, and here's what sounds a comparable villa (probably a lot nicer), directly on the golf course in La Manga, with an asking price of £620k: http://lamangaclubresales.datagate.net.uk/...dule.asp?ID=206 - You say that 'those directly on the golf course were too expensive', which implies a high premium for villas that are actually on the golf course, so let's knock off a conservative £120k for a villa that isn't actually on the golf course. Thus a comparable property in Spain costs less than £500k (at the top of the spanish property bubble), rather than 'over £1 million pounds'. You're more than half a million pounds out! For your sake, hopefully the rest of your calculations are somewhat more accurate...

Spain is also closer, a lot safer & more desirable than Morocco. It's just as well you're buying in a 'totally safe gated development', from the FCO travel advice, let's hope they're big strong gates, and security guards with guns come included! If you're a woman, you better like staying within the gates :unsure: Sounds too dangerous to go out on your own.

The whole thing sounds very risky when the best you can reasonably hope for is doubling your money. Scary risk/reward ratio, but good luck anyway. Your best bet is perhaps flipping the place, which is what it looks like you're going to do.

Was wondering about all the new members posting in this thread, whose deep interest in becoming BTL speculators in Africa has led to them joining a site about a UK house price crash, until reading this little gem:

:rolleyes:

You need to get your facts straight.

My villa isnt directly attatched to a fairway but its behind a house that is. I will have a 30 second walk. The site has a 7km beach. La Manga has a little brown strip that gets so crowded no one really considers it a proper beach. La Manga has no Marina let alone a world class 850 berth marina!

You consider this a risky investment not worthwhile. Can you let Emaar Property out of Dubai know theyve made a mistake building 6 prestige developments, on and while youre at it you better let Spains second largest developer 'Fadesa' know theyve made a real booboo with Saidia. Oh and there's the Sun City people and some other high profile developers who also require your insight.

While your at it can you let Ryanair know to, theyve just announced 20 routes - muppets :rolleyes:

Oh and then there are the various international hotel chains building in Saidia including Barcelo group.

Investing doesnt come in conveinient tins complete with a 'green for go' label. Spain is yesterdays investment.

Its funny you know. I recall people buying in Spain 20 years ago. I recall people sniggering behind thier backs, rolling eyes "fancy buying in Spain, you cant trust them locals and the water will give you Berry Berry".

Now THAT ONCE EXOTIC, FRINGE INVESTMENT HAS BECOME THE NORM. Funny that.

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You need to get your facts straight.

My villa isnt directly attatched to a fairway but its behind a house that is. I will have a 30 second walk. The site has a 7km beach. La Manga has a little brown strip that gets so crowded no one really considers it a proper beach. La Manga has no Marina let alone a world class 850 berth marina!

You consider this a risky investment not worthwhile. Can you let Emaar Property out of Dubai know theyve made a mistake building 6 prestige developments, on and while youre at it you better let Spains second largest developer 'Fadesa' know theyve made a real booboo with Saidia. Oh and there's the Sun City people and some other high profile developers who also require your insight.

While your at it can you let Ryanair know to, theyve just announced 20 routes - muppets :rolleyes:

Oh and then there are the various international hotel chains building in Saidia including Barcelo group.

Investing doesnt come in conveinient tins complete with a 'green for go' label. Spain is yesterdays investment.

Its funny you know. I recall people buying in Spain 20 years ago. I recall people sniggering behind thier backs, rolling eyes "fancy buying in Spain, you cant trust them locals and the water will give you Berry Berry".

Now THAT ONCE EXOTIC, FRINGE INVESTMENT HAS BECOME THE NORM. Funny that.

You said that a similar villa in La Manga would cost over a million pounds. That's getting your facts straight?

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Hi Guys,

My name is Andy Welland and i am the International Sales Manager for a company called www.propertyshowrooms.com which is based in Southern Spain. We currently work with 9 different countries and Morocco is bay far the most popular at the moment. I have been over to La Saidia many times so if any of you would like to receive pictures of the resort or some honest advice as to what is good and what is not in Morocco then drop me an email on [email protected] We deal with all of the developers in La Saidia and can give you a very good overview on the whole project. Just incase any of you are looking at the Villas on Jardin de Fleur i have just had one client pull out due to financial problems which was on the first phase. If you have seen the new prices for phase 3 they start from about £190 -195,000 and this was one of the best ones on phase 1 @ £182,000

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Just so you all know that i am not in this forum to sell you something and will attach some of the photos of La Saidia to this posting. I am just amazed by the amount of people that are buying rubbish in Morocco based on price alone. I talk with maybe 30 people a day about Morocco. I have stood on hundreds of development sites in Spain, Canaries, Bulgaria, Turkey and Cyprus to name but a few and as with any country there is both good and bad investments, La Saidia for me is by far the most unique project i have ever seen. That is easy for me to say because i have been to all of these places.

Finally a message to Dog Box, If you want to set yourself up as a referal agent in the UK i would be more than happy to hear from you........thats not if you already are.

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Hi Andy and welcome,

I know what you mean about Morocco, we have been tempted a few times with overseas properties but nothing excited us like Saidia. It is quite unique.

We have bought a Magnum apartment and went out there in March so it was great to see your pics (although not much has moved since then !!)

keep em coming please !!!

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Hi Andy and welcome,

I know what you mean about Morocco, we have been tempted a few times with overseas properties but nothing excited us like Saidia. It is quite unique.

We have bought a Magnum apartment and went out there in March so it was great to see your pics (although not much has moved since then !!)

keep em coming please !!!

drop me an email and will send you all the ones that i have. I will also be going back again on the 23rd, 30th and 7th of july all with clients that have reserved property in la Saidia and are all very happy. I will take more pitures then and gladly email them to you

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Just encase any of you are still looking or have bought in Jardin de Fleur, Prices on the apartments will be going up on the 15th of June by 3% and the Villas by 2%

Andy welcome,

Are these price - hikes genuine or just the developer trying to 'up the tempo' when in actual fact one could still buy at the old prices?

Another increase was announced a few weeks back (4%), did this take effect?

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Andy welcome,

Are these price - hikes genuine or just the developer trying to 'up the tempo' when in actual fact one could still buy at the old prices?

Another increase was announced a few weeks back (4%), did this take effect?

Hi DogBox,

There was a price increase on the 15th of May and to give you an example in Block number 7a Unit number 1060b the price prior to the 15th of May was £109,767 and is now currently available at £111,866. After the 15th of June you will pay about £115k for the same property. If you want to picky about it lets just say a client reserved on 14th of May at £111,866 and by the 15th of June and in just over a month he has seen his property increase in Value by a £6000 pounds.

The thing with Jardin de Fleur is that they have seen a massive demand for their product with there now only being about 50 - 60 apatrments left available. They have also told me that there will be a price increase on the 15th of every month until they get down to the last 20 - 30 units and at this point they are going to put the prices up even higher as this will then be aimed at the kind of people that we refer to as end users and they will pay a premium in order to be able to SEE IT, FEEL IT, TOUCH IT.

I think that the price increases are justified and if you start looking at the other developments in La Saidia it is not just Jardin de Fleur that is going up. For example Tasa units went up by 7% 2 weeks ago and Oasis Beach and Golf have released villas that are the same sqm as a Jardin de Fleur apartment for £250k.

I personally believe that La Saidia will be the most exclusive resort in the whole of Morocco for far to many reasons to go into now. I cannot see any reason why people who have purchased could see a minimum of at 2% increase every month which is 24% growth per annum.

If anyone wants to come back and say thats not possible then look at the Costa Calida. The only difference is that Costa Calida market will have a far worse resale market than the Costa del Sol has at the moment.

La Saidia is exclusive and unique it will remain the most exclusive and unique project in Morocco. The type of clients that i have had purchase there range from Bankers and Doctors to Music producers.

May i also just say Dog that i have read through alot of your coments on this forum and i am 100% behind you.

As a final note the second of the kings projects will be released on the Atlantic coast in about 4 - 6 weeks. if you want to have a look at it go to www.port-lixus.com

Having now found this forum i will keep you all posted on any updates that i might get.

Andy

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Thanks for all the information Andy. It's good to hear an agent confirming what many of us believe about Morocco.

If you haven't already found the forum www.buyingmoroccanproperty.com I suggest you look at it!

And before anyone accuses me of being in league with anyone, none of the posts are from me and I've actually bought through another agent, but am very pleased to hear what Andy has posted about Saidia.

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I am just amazed by the amount of people that are buying rubbish in Morocco based on price alone. I talk with maybe 30 people a day about Morocco.

Andy,

Please can you tell me where this 'rubbish' in Morocco is ??

I am living in Casablanca and looking for property myself (Saidia is too far from a work point of view).

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Andy,

Please can you tell me where this 'rubbish' in Morocco is ??

I am living in Casablanca and looking for property myself (Saidia is too far from a work point of view).

Hi Big Log,

When i was saying about rubbish i was referring more to the agents out there that are pushing products that dont really offer the best rental or resale potential as most of my clients are looking for investment. If we are not very careful i can see that we end up having a situation very similar to what has happened in Spain and Bulgaria.

I think that you must make sure that a buyer knows who his rental market and resale market will be and also which other developments he will be in competition against. If you take a look at the coastline between Tangiers to Larache there are developments such as Paradise Beach and Asilah Beach which are selling very quickly but is this is a question of people not being informed about Port - Lixus and clients getting carried away with what is currently available? Is this down to the agent just looking to get the sale done and get there money ASAP?. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with these projects before i start getting bombarded with postings from people, it is just that in my opinion agents should make sure that they listen to why a client is looking to buy and not just be in it for the short term.

This is exactly what happened in Spain and also in Bulgaria to name but a few countries. This is why the Costa del Sol has over 30,000 resales and why Bulgaria is also going to end up with the same problem. Morocco is at the very early stages so lets not get it wrong at the start.

The first thing I ask people is have you ever been to Morocco and 90% of the time they say no. So educate them first on what is happening and what Vision 2010 is about and then find them something that matches what they are looking for.

The only project that i know of at the moment between Casablanca and El Jadida is Les Palmiers De Casablanca which is being developed by the same people as Le Jardin de Fleur. We have seen a lot of people register interest in this product that are from Casablanca and also a lot of Moroccans from America, Holland and France. Prices start from 65,000€ for a 2 bed apartment - fully furnished. The whole area will be developed over a period of time and i am being told that there are plans for a 12km paseo. It is a very similar situation to what has happened on the coastline of Spain and this area will be built up over a longer period of time. I already know of investors that are land banking in this area.

Also one of the Kings resorts is planned for the area between El Jadida and Casablanca called Mazagan Haouzia by a developer called Kerzner International.

I have now been contacted by quite a few people from this Forum and have already said to them that i do visit al ot of these sites but this is the first time that i have ever posted anything. The reason for that is because i think that Morocco is going to be an amazing market and has so much potential.

If you want more details on Les Palmiers then email me and i will send you all the plans that i have. It is still on a pre release basis at the moment.

Please remember this is only my personal opinion......

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I think that you must make sure that a buyer knows who his rental market and resale market will be and also which other developments he will be in competition against. If you take a look at the coastline between Tangiers to Larache there are developments such as Paradise Beach and Asilah Beach which are selling very quickly but is this is a question of people not being informed about Port - Lixus and clients getting carried away with what is currently available?

I agree Andy.

I was roundly condemned on another forum when I questioned investors buying into smaller sites such as Asilah and PB. They thought I was being negative, when in actual fact I was trying to be helpful!

They point I was trying to make was that Saidia will have a much more robust rental market given the year round facilities which are hugely more extensive than those at the small sites. Also there will always be demand for security which Saidia has in abundance.

Also the 8 or so hotels and conference centre will be good for rental exposure and the marketing machinery of the hotels will benefit the site as a whole.

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Map_Plan_Azur.GIF

I agree Andy.

I was roundly condemned on another forum when I questioned investors buying into smaller sites such as Asilah and PB. They thought I was being negative, when in actual fact I was trying to be helpful!

They point I was trying to make was that Saidia will have a much more robust rental market given the year round facilities which are hugely more extensive than those at the small sites. Also there will always be demand for security which Saidia has in abundance.

Also the 8 or so hotels and conference centre will be good for rental exposure and the marketing machinery of the hotels will benefit the site as a whole.

Thankyou Dog Box,

I am trying to be as diplomatic as i possibly can without offending anyone. I have attached a map with the location of the 6 main resorts in Morocco.

post-5014-1150115288.gif

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Hi Dog Box and Andy

According to one of the other forums, property purchased at Saidia will only be able to be let through the onsite agency which offer offer a maximum guarantee of 2.5% - is this true?

I am calling Property Logic (Jardin de Fleur now)

Hi Dog Box and Andy

According to one of the other forums, property purchased at Saidia will only be able to be let through the onsite agency which offer offer a maximum guarantee of 2.5% - is this true?

Hi Fabs,

I have just been told this is only the case if you purchase through Fadesa. I am just ringing their uk office to see if this is the true.

Fadesa will have a rental management company in place but i have just been told that they will be offering 3% on the first year and 4 % on the second year. If anyone wants more in depth info on this i would suggest to contact them directly in their uk office which is Telephone: +44 (0)20 7486 6500

I also know that Jardin de Fleur have been contacted by several companies with regards to their product. As far as i am aware this is totally seperate to Fadesa. They have not contracted anything at the moment but this is understandable as the Tour Companies or Management companies are trying to get the best deal the same as the people that are buying the properties

Jardin de Fleur also have aquired plots from Fadesa to do 25 Luxury Villas which will be 400sqm build size on about 1000sqm plots + Townhouses and also an Aparthotel on Phase 3 of the Saidia development and will be looking for a 5 star company to manage all of their products.

Edited by andy welland
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I am calling Property Logic (Jardin de Fleur now)

Hi Fabs,

I have just been told this is only the case if you purchase through Fadesa. I am just ringing their uk office to see if this is the true.

Fadesa will have a rental management company in place but i have just been told that they will be offering 3% on the first year and 4 % on the second year. If anyone wants more in depth info on this i would suggest to contact them directly in their uk office which is Telephone: +44 (0)20 7486 6500

I also know that Jardin de Fleur have been contacted by several companies with regards to their product. As far as i am aware this is totally seperate to Fadesa. They have not contracted anything at the moment but this is understandable as the Tour Companies or Management companies are trying to get the best deal the same as the people that are buying the properties

Jardin de Fleur also have aquired plots from Fadesa to do 25 Luxury Villas which will be 400sqm build size on about 1000sqm plots + Townhouses and also an Aparthotel on Phase 3 of the Saidia development and will be looking for a 5 star company to manage all of their products.

Thank you for your quick response. I would be grateful if you could keep me/us posted as you receive info.

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Andy, Ive got my name down for a marina berth (purely as an investment), either 15m or 20m.

The agent Im dealing with tells me there are none left but has put me on a list if any should arrise.

Dont suupose you have one?

Andy, what about rent levels?

We use villas every year and always end up paying somewhere between £1000 - £2000 per week for detatched with pool, NOT ON A BEACH in a non chavvy resort in places such as Menorca. Smae for Sardinia and Greek islands such as Paxos.

When you think these villas will have the added benefit of being within walking distance of the beach and have the 3 golf courses, surely the rents will be reasonably strong?

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