Granddad, Tell How Capitalism Committed Suicide:

[Sourman]

But that apparently isn't capitalism that's socialism.

It seems that by some peoples reaction, that they equate a socialist government, with living in a socialist economy!!

This is the level of intellect we have here on HPC is it??

[Guest Steve Cook]

YOOOOO Mr Cook, Are NOT going to heaven

you may be right....

[Guest Steve Cook]

http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

http://mcncirce.com/safety6.html

Both sites above list age of consent around the world.

As Injin keeps pointing out in the little utopian society known as capitalism we don't need rules we are all free to choose, we get a bit of land, get some bits and bobs and hey presto you have a house and capital. Get a few resources together put in a bit of labour and you get added value on your capital for you to trade.

And you don't need laws or rules because everyone is free to CHOOSE, we all have a choice to trade or not to trade and make decisions which most benefit the individual, there is no such thing as society.

Question at what age can you choose and exercise your right to choice?

The above lists a huge range of ages when it is deemed legal to have sex. In Injin's wonderful society the above list doesn't exist so if I wanted to have sex with a female does it matter what age she is?

If she was 4 could she agree to have sex with me has a female of this age got the capacity for choice? What about 8 can a person understand choice and the ramifications of their decision? 12 maybe? When does the capacity for choice begin? Now your making decisions your making laws which is at odds with complete liberty and freedom of choice?

(You also have the problem of educating individuals to understand choice, not as simple as it sounds look at religion. How many different Christian groups are there all following the one true religion, see what happened in Algeria when the extremists started killing each other over who where the true believers. What one person sees as a choice someone else may not.)

If I offer them a trade for sex, food / shelter / clothes does that make it a fair trade or is that coercion? When does coercion begin and choice end?

At what age does a female become able to choose what they want to do with there own bodies? Say if they choose to have sex at 8 years of age does anyone have a right to stop them, it's there body their choice, their decision.

If Injins theory can't deal with this then it's failed the stress test and the theory doesn't work. You can't pick or chose which questions test the theory.

If there are no laws, no judiciary then I can sex with whom I want, when I want and at what age I want and no one can stop me exercising my liberty to do so.

That's choice, that's freedom.

Now if you are going to make laws who gets to decide what's right/wrong.

intelligent post

Edited July 10, 2008 by Steve Cook

[Guest Steve Cook]

It seems that by some peoples reaction, that they equate a socialist government, with living in a socialist economy!!

This is the level of intellect we have here on HPC is it??

afraid so, in a depressing number of cases

[kokyu]

There has been no personal freedom, or liberty to do completely as one wishes, in any form of human interaction that has ever existed. Therefore to imagine such an interaction is completely pointless as it goes against basic human nature and can never be lived day to day.

The strong will always dominate the weak be it through money, goods, ideas or physical force.

[Injin]

I am selfish

I want your stuff

I could trade with you

I am bigger than you

I can take your stuff without your consent

It requires less effort (loss) on my part to simply take your stuff as opposed to trade for it. This will benefit (profit) me more.

I take your stuff without your consent.

I am concerned that you might get bigger one day.

So, just to make sure I don't get sny comeback, I cut your throat.

I have acted in the most profitable way possible based on both my short and long term self interest.

That's nice isn't it. I'd love to live in that world.

Well, guess what, injin. Sarcasm aside, I could live in that world, if I absoloutely had to, because I am a realist. Being a realist, I would do what it takes. Just like most people. That doesn't mean I would want to necessarily (though, unfortunately, I know enough of the real world to know that there are others who would have less qualms).

You wouldn't last five f*cking minutes my friend. You'd be too busy worrying about how people weren't obeying the rules of your ideology. You'd be too busy telling them that if only they would follow your guiding principles, the world would be such a better place. Meanwhile your throat would be cut and I would have all your stuff

Oh for god's sake.

I already said that no one, not one human being has to be a capitalist.

You can all hack each other to death with rusty axes for all I care.

The fact still remains that the only way to increase wealth is capitalism, the more people who act like capitalists, the more wealth there is. It's just true. It doesn't care whether you accept it or not, does truth. it just sits there, being true. As for your obvious nonsense about being a realist and fighting the good fight - when was the last time you told the taxman to shove it or ignored the police?

You never have and you never will. You pay up and you keep your head down. If you really followed the logic above you would have a plan to kill all the Mp's* and so on, because that way you would (long term) have more stuff for yourself. Actually, of course, you know when you are beat and do what your masters tell you like a good boy.

*Hello, govenment internet monitors. Areest Steve, he's the unhinged one!

[Guest Steve Cook]

Oh for god's sake.

I already said that no one, not one human being has to be a capitalist.

You can all hack each other to death with rusty axes for all I care.

The fact still remains that the only way to increase wealth is capitalism, the more people who act like capitalists, the more wealth there is. It's just true. It doesn't care whether you accept it or not, does truth. it just sits there, being true. As for your obvious nonsense about being a realist and fighting the good fight - when was the last time you told the taxman to shove it or ignored the police?

You never have and you never will. You pay up and you keep your head down. If you really followed the logic above you would have a plan to kill all the Mp's* and so on, because that way you would (long term) have more stuff for yourself. Actually, of course, you know when you are beat and do what your masters tell you like a good boy.

If your ideology is only "true" in some metaphysical, philisophical space, injin, it has no more "realiity" to it than socialism.

Socialism would be fine and dandy if everyone followed it's philisophiocal "truth".

We're the problem injin.

You have all of the ideological fervour of a 14 year old who has just "discovered" the meaning of life

Time to move on, grow up, get real

Anyway, you still havn't adressed, in any way, how your ideology of human action deals with my scenareo except to misrepresent it, as is so often the case. I said (to repeat) that such a world is one I could live in if I had to. I most certainly would not wish to, given a choice.

Or are you just going to continue to avoid it in the way you often do when confronted with a straghtforward simple stress test of your ideology?

Edited July 10, 2008 by Steve Cook

[culvers]

Injin, i have to agree with Steve.

Grow up mate - without the machine that your so bravely raging against, you'd probably be dead. If the anarchist paradise came to fruition - one where everybody ignored the police and government, do you really think things would be better? There are lot of BAD people out there who want to take everything from you because they can. There are even more people who would contemplate this were it not for laws which punish them for doing so.

I don't think your uni librarys politics books are going to help you when some mad max style gang comes bursting through your window intent on skinning you alive and eating your pet cat.

[Injin]

Injin, i have to agree with Steve.

Grow up mate - without the machine that your so bravely raging against, you'd probably be dead. If the anarchist paradise came to fruition - one where everybody ignored the police and government, do you really think things would be better? There are lot of BAD people out there who want to take everything from you because they can. There are even more people who would contemplate this were it not for laws which punish them for doing so.

I don't think your uni librarys politics books are going to help you when some mad max style gang comes bursting through your window intent on skinning you alive and eating your pet cat.

The state is a massive agency of coerciion and violence, responsible for the deaths of hundreds of billions and the theft of at least half the world's resources. In your wacky estimation -

Random nutters + state

is better than

Random nutters - state.

Completely mad.

[Injin]

If your ideology is only "true" in some metaphysical, philisophical space, injin, it has no more "realiity" to it than socialism.

Socialism would be fine and dandy if everyone followed it's philisophiocal "truth".

We're the problem injin.

You have all of the ideological fervour of a 14 year old who has just "discovered" the meaning of life

Time to move on, grow up, get real

Anyway, you still havn't adressed, in any way, how your ideology of human action deals with my scenareo except to misrepresent it, as is so often the case. I said (to repeat) that such a world is one I could live in if I had to. I most certainly would not wish to, given a choice.

Or are you just going to continue to avoid it in the way you often do when confronted with a straghtforward simple stress test of your ideology?

DO I think that people will ever, en masse all go down capitalist avenue?

Yes, actually, I do. Once the moral case has been made.

Does it matter if they don't as regards the truth of the position?

Nope. Not in the slightest.

[interestrateripoff]

DO I think that people will ever, en masse all go down capitalist avenue?

Yes, actually, I do. Once the moral case has been made.

Does it matter if they don't as regards the truth of the position?

Nope. Not in the slightest.

I thought you said capitalism is a self evident truth? You don't need to make a moral case. Morals have nothing to do with scientific theory.

I see you haven't answered by question regarding choice, too difficult for your capital theory?

[interestrateripoff]

So lets take Injin's capital experiment to it's logical level.

We all put labour and resources in to make capital, choose to co-operate and develop more technology to improve our lives and thus become more productive.

Now lets see how this plays out.

We'll take paying for power, in the system Injin is proposing we don't have money we use bartering. Money remember is "socialism" and allows coercion, so we can't have that.

So how many pigs do I need to pay the gas company for a therm? How many loafs of bread? If the gas company gets enough pigs it may be able to put the pig farmers out of business as the power company has just become a pig monopoly. What then do the pig farmers do? If the power company decides it doesn't want pigs what do you do, trade for bread? You've traded for bread go to pay the power company they then turn round and say sorry got enough bread now, but we are taking chickens as payment, today’s rate is 5 per therm.

If the number of pigs go down does that mean there value in this trade system goes up? Is it now 1/2 a pig for a therm? If the baker has an oversupply of bread does that mean he needs to give the power company more bread for it's power? Is their some sort of trading mechanism that values how many loafs of bread equal a pig?

We take a trip down to the supermarket, do we load up a cart with pigs, chickens, sheep etc... to trade for other items that we need? Starting to think this sounds ridiculous and inefficient? I think the early capital traders did too.

So once this free trade collect gets to this point they will come up with an invention to allow the more efficient trade of goods.

Anyone guess what they will freely come up with to solve this????

I think the only solution is to use paper and write on it!!!! But we can't do that as it's a socialist invention, RIGHT?

If the collective build a road and I don't contribute do I get to use it? Remember you have no ownership and property rights. The road makes me more productive and I gain more capital, that's fair? Or is freeloading acceptable? Whilst using the road I damage it with my cart I don't repair it I just leave it for someone else to do it, but I still continue to use the road and never contribute to it.

Seriously how long to you think this would continue?

If in trying to become more productive I poison the water table I don't get punished because there is no law? Hey sh*t happens everyone has to move away and start again? There's land everywhere it isn't a problem, I try the same experiment again as this time I'm sure it will work and I poison the water table again. Hey sh*t happens right we move on. There are no rules stopping me from experimenting how to become more productive so I can do what I like.

Because rules equal socialism and socialism destroys capital.

So come on Injin

Bring it on