abharrisson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 I am sure I can find one if I could be bothered to look. Mainly around the VALUATION part. I challenege you to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Why the implicit assumption that employment, export, and housing cycles must be in phase? (I'd attack the notion that today's housing bubble in any way resembles the 90's, and suggest that the nearest fit is actually the equity bubble of the late 20's, but life's too short to bother)Yep, clearly. Totally. Utter rot. Too complicated, best do nothing at all. On the basis that none of has any real influence at all then the you reach the sensible conclusion which is do nothing is best... in fact its the only thing you can do... other than talk about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 On the basis that none of has any real influence at all then the you reach the sensible conclusion which is do nothing is best... in fact its the only thing you can do... other than talk about it. You aren't still doubting that sending capital towards something that's already built and is in fact depreciating is economically negative, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 I challenege you to do it. Well, the last sale price is the value. If a surveyor says its worth more than a price acheived, by any means, clearly the valuation is wrong. And for mortgage purposes these days they give about 80% of normal asking prices. this is because banks are not stupid. The ramping up of valuations is the subject of many fraud operations going on as we speak. Only in december, a whole team of fraudsters were taken down in just such a scheme, where they got valuations done, then bought for a discount. Whole blocks of flats have been traded this way. Its a scam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcpricewatcher Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 I understood perfectly what you are explaining thank you.Frankly I make more money for a lot less effort thank you, and it involves no dodgy dealings, no finding dodgy surveyors, and relying on a currently non existent instant mortgage market. Your scheme borders on the fraudulent. What you pay for a property determines market value, on the way up and on the way down. Is there an honest, risk free and ethical way to make huge amounts of money without lots of effort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Is there an honest, risk free and ethical way to make huge amounts of money without lots of effort? Yes. Have £1,000,000 Spend it wisely.* *So glad I got this saved for cut and paste now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Is there an honest, risk free and ethical way to make huge amounts of money without lots of effort? I didnt say huge. i buy and sell things, capital goods for Industry, with the added value of doing the building control and Local authority stuff. All that mucking about and earning a tiny cash sum then being reliant on rental to keep it alive for three years, in a falling market, sounds like hard work and risky too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcpricewatcher Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 ...Well, the last sale price is the value.... Not stricly true. I know a relative who once bought a bmw 7 series off a guy he knew who badly needed 20k to tide over his small business cashflow wise. He then sold it a year later for 25k. So I guess it's actually value at the time of the 1st sale was >25k (since cars are generally known to decpreciate)... The point is, the original seller (of the house) at auction was effectively forced into selling under value due to time constraints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Not stricly true. I know a relative who once bought a bmw 7 series off a guy he knew who badly needed 20k to tide over his small business cashflow wise. He then sold it a year later for 25k. So I guess it's actually value at the time of the 1st sale was >25k (since cars are generally known to decpreciate)...The point is, the original seller (of the house) at auction was effectively forced into selling under value due to time constraints. No, if the price was right it would sell, whatever medium you choose. There will be lots of forced sellers in the market- thats what drives prices down. Why buy a house from a nice Estate agents window when there is another one cheaper at the Auction. Also, valuations for mortgages take into account that at repo time it WILL be a forced sale. Any other, and its collusion and fraud. The car example is irrelavent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babesagainstmachines Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Is there an honest, risk free and ethical way to make huge amounts of money without lots of effort? Only if you are very very very lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Well, the last sale price is the value.If a surveyor says its worth more than a price acheived, by any means, clearly the valuation is wrong. And for mortgage purposes these days they give about 80% of normal asking prices. this is because banks are not stupid. The ramping up of valuations is the subject of many fraud operations going on as we speak. Only in december, a whole team of fraudsters were taken down in just such a scheme, where they got valuations done, then bought for a discount. Whole blocks of flats have been traded this way. Its a scam. Just as I thought you didn't understand it. Its also clear you don't understand how valuers arrive at the value of properties. Let me put it this way... you have house.. the agent says he reckons he can get an offer on it for £100k.... you decide to sell it at a knock down price to your child for £30k.... by your reckoning the property is therefore worth £30k.... if your child then takes a mortgage on it and the he says to the valuer its worth £100k and the valuer does his research and agrees ... then under your way of working thats fraud..... the above is exactly the same as I have described in terms of process. You think its fraud I know it isn't otherwise it wouldn't be happening. As for banks only giving 80%... rubbish... you can bridging finance as I described for 100%... you can get a btl mortgage for 90%..... sure things a re tighter but not as tight as you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 You aren't still doubting that sending capital towards something that's already built and is in fact depreciating is economically negative, are you? How's the piggy bank. You're still not of the view that built assets always depreciate are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 How's the piggy bank.You're still not of the view that built assets always depreciate are you? Everything that exists constantly depreciates, it's called entropy. Learn physics, forget the alternate reality of financials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Everything that exists constantly depreciates, it's called entropy. Learn physics, forget the alternate reality of financials. Not in your lifetime, or your childrens lifetime, or your childrens childrens lifetime... I'd forget physics if I were you and get real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Just as I thought you didn't understand it.Its also clear you don't understand how valuers arrive at the value of properties. Let me put it this way... you have house.. the agent says he reckons he can get an offer on it for £100k.... you decide to sell it at a knock down price to your child for £30k.... by your reckoning the property is therefore worth £30k.... if your child then takes a mortgage on it and the he says to the valuer its worth £100k and the valuer does his research and agrees ... then under your way of working thats fraud..... the above is exactly the same as I have described in terms of process. You think its fraud I know it isn't otherwise it wouldn't be happening. As for banks only giving 80%... rubbish... you can bridging finance as I described for 100%... you can get a btl mortgage for 90%..... sure things a re tighter but not as tight as you think. Thats not an arms length transaction. You can sell to your daughter whatever price you like, although if you die within 7 years she will be liable for some tax. on the 70k gift. Your valuer in the pocket is definately up for fraud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynic Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Everything that exists constantly depreciates, it's called entropy. Learn physics, forget the alternate reality of financials. you're too playful. a von gogh deteriorates. It doesn't depreciate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 No, if the price was right it would sell, whatever medium you choose.There will be lots of forced sellers in the market- thats what drives prices down. Why buy a house from a nice Estate agents window when there is another one cheaper at the Auction. Also, valuations for mortgages take into account that at repo time it WILL be a forced sale. Any other, and its collusion and fraud. The car example is irrelavent This just gets funnier and funnier. Lets take our mythical £100k house... three agents say they reckon its worth £100k and they can find a buyer in say three months. The valuer looks at and says he reckons its fair enough and £100k is achieveable within three months.... but the mortgage company who repossessed it doesn't want to wait three months... so what happens they seek people who can buy now, mostly with cash... they go to an auction where it sells for £65k. if they had waited three months they would have got £100k...... the valuer would still value the house at £100k, the fact that its gone in an auction for less than that is neither here nor there. Its certainly not fraud as you seem to maintain. And as for your point about why would people buy form an agent when they could buy at an auction that was just hysterical.... out of 100 buyers how many do you think would have the confidence and the financing nous to buy at auction... answer very few possibly none who hadn't done it before... its not as easy as raising your hand and saying yes please you know... and with mortgage offers apparently taking up to six or eight weeks now its very very difficult to complete within the 28 day window auctioneers demand....... thats why everything goes for less in an auction becasue its quick and theres a price to pay (by the seller) for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Thats not an arms length transaction.You can sell to your daughter whatever price you like, although if you die within 7 years she will be liable for some tax. on the 70k gift. Your valuer in the pocket is definately up for fraud. Gosh you really are fighting a lost cause here... I used that example to simplify it for you and to demonstrate that things can be sold for less than they are worth and legitimately have a higher valuation. where you get the valuer in your pocket bit from I really don't know... the mortgage companies in the tyoes of case I have described appoint them, very often they actually work for the mortgage company, the purchaser rarely if ever meets them and rarely even knows their name or sees their report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 This just gets funnier and funnier. Lets take our mythical £100k house... three agents say they reckon its worth £100k and they can find a buyer in say three months. The valuer looks at and says he reckons its fair enough and £100k is achieveable within three months.... but the mortgage company who repossessed it doesn't want to wait three months... so what happens they seek people who can buy now, mostly with cash... they go to an auction where it sells for £65k.if they had waited three months they would have got £100k...... the valuer would still value the house at £100k, the fact that its gone in an auction for less than that is neither here nor there. Its certainly not fraud as you seem to maintain. And as for your point about why would people buy form an agent when they could buy at an auction that was just hysterical.... out of 100 buyers how many do you think would have the confidence and the financing nous to buy at auction... answer very few possibly none who hadn't done it before... its not as easy as raising your hand and saying yes please you know... and with mortgage offers apparently taking up to six or eight weeks now its very very difficult to complete within the 28 day window auctioneers demand....... thats why everything goes for less in an auction becasue its quick and theres a price to pay (by the seller) for that. How about 5 agents and their cats value it. Their price is irrelevent. The mortgage valuer will not meet the value by the EAs. 100% mortgages are not available. The valuer will value it for mortgage purposes on what these things are acheiving at auction. If he doesnt, then a fraud would be easily proved. A mortgage company lawyer would just check for other porperties and what they were selling for and hey presto- the valuer is on the hook. RICS are valuing everything DOWN- they say its the worst time they can remember. Good luck with your schemes, but I earned more than your 100k deal with a couple of sales presentations and some quotes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 you're too playful.a von gogh deteriorates. It doesn't depreciate. Yeah, it does. Think macro, it makes it clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 This just gets funnier and funnier. Lets take our mythical £100k house... three agents say they reckon its worth £100k and they can find a buyer in say three months. The valuer looks at and says he reckons its fair enough and £100k is achieveable within three months.... but the mortgage company who repossessed it doesn't want to wait three months... so what happens they seek people who can buy now, mostly with cash... they go to an auction where it sells for £65k.if they had waited three months they would have got £100k...... the valuer would still value the house at £100k, the fact that its gone in an auction for less than that is neither here nor there. Its certainly not fraud as you seem to maintain. And as for your point about why would people buy form an agent when they could buy at an auction that was just hysterical.... out of 100 buyers how many do you think would have the confidence and the financing nous to buy at auction... answer very few possibly none who hadn't done it before... its not as easy as raising your hand and saying yes please you know... and with mortgage offers apparently taking up to six or eight weeks now its very very difficult to complete within the 28 day window auctioneers demand....... thats why everything goes for less in an auction becasue its quick and theres a price to pay (by the seller) for that. The mortgage company, whom you say have a valuation of 100K is obliged to get the best possible price for the property. Its the LAW. Sellin git off cheap just to get it off their hands is UNLAWFUL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynic Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Yeah, it does. Think macro, it makes it clearer. I can't get the macro bit....it's just a setting on my camera. help me with this, please... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 How about 5 agents and their cats value it. Their price is irrelevent.The mortgage valuer will not meet the value by the EAs. 100% mortgages are not available. The valuer will value it for mortgage purposes on what these things are acheiving at auction. If he doesnt, then a fraud would be easily proved. A mortgage company lawyer would just check for other porperties and what they were selling for and hey presto- the valuer is on the hook. RICS are valuing everything DOWN- they say its the worst time they can remember. Good luck with your schemes, but I earned more than your 100k deal with a couple of sales presentations and some quotes. Gosh tetchy aren't we... loved the bit about a couple of sales presentatioms and some quotes.... they are actually not my schemes... I don't do this... but you did ask me to explain it earlier to you... but you just can't seem to understand. When valuers consider things for valuations most don't even touch the repossession figures that go through auction, most don't have access to the numbers. What they do is have a view of what they have seen and what is beign sold at what price and have a view on whats for sale at what price through agents. They may also use some land reg data... but the auction stuff normally gets excluded because they recognise its a special situation... the properties either need a quick sale which demands a discount on what would be achievable through an agent or the property is specialised and therefore has to go through an auction. Valuers always produce comparables in these circumstances and would also do so in the case I described to you... the last thing they would be in a case like this is on the hook. after all they have valued a £100k property at £100k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abharrisson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 The mortgage company, whom you say have a valuation of 100K is obliged to get the best possible price for the property. Its the LAW. Sellin git off cheap just to get it off their hands is UNLAWFUL. You are correct that the law demands repossessed properties are fully marketed, however timescales are not covered. Mortgage companies used to sell these things for whatever they could get as quickly as possible through repossession lists, now you are correct they need to be able to prove its been properly marketed, but as I say the time issue is not properly covered. In reallity... mortgage companies use agents they know by area. Those agents know that regardless of whether they think they can get £100k in three months the imperative is to get the best offer quickly. Mortgage companies typically might give agents a month and then stick it in the auction, they will have achieved their minimum standards by putting it through the agent... if it hasn't sold then thats just tough from their point of view. Agents wll also contact property dealers on their books when repossessions and ask them to offer... they'll offer similar money to that which they can get it for at auction. The law is there you are right, but its not as protective as you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 I can't get the macro bit....it's just a setting on my camera.help me with this, please... Today you have a piccasso, tommorow you will have a piccasso in slightly less good nikck than it is today. This is one reason why things only ever depreciate (purely measured against themselves). In order for the picasso to go up in price, then external forces to the picasso must come into play. That is, in order for the picasso to go up in price and keep going up in price, you need a huge economy providing massive amounts of labour, effort, energy and so on to fight and overcome the force of entropy. However, in order for this price rise to occur, many, many, many times more real wealth must be created relative to the picasso and so in fact as part of the total it's actually cheaper. A picasso might go up a few million quid, but for this to occur we needed to invent space travel, motorways, international telecommunications ........ Everything depreciates constantly, some things do not depreciate as fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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