Outline Planning Permission Advice Needed...

[libspero]

Not sure exactly what the cat has to do with the planning permission.. are you planning some sort of modern art monstrosity as some kind of revenge on your neighbour?!

Either way.. my sympathy is presently more with your neighbour.. I keep on treading in the "presents" my neighbour's cat leaves in my back garden :angry:

Edited to add:

Bah Humbug!

Edited December 21, 2007 by libspero

[lets get it right]

sorry I think I muddled my point on this - you can arrange for numerous site meetings / sit down meetings with the PO if the PP has been refused prior to appeal.

Have you ever been through this process? I have. After planning is refused you appeal. Once the appeal is submitted nothing you or the planners say or do has the slightest affect on the process.

When the plannng inspector visits you and the planning department's representatives are not allowed to make representations. You have made your case on paper, as have the council. The planning inspector can ask you questions if they wish and you can answer them but neither you nor the council can 'bend their ear'.

Once you have appealed, the planning officers will not waste their time discussing the application with you - unless you wish to talk about submitting a modified application.

I beat the barstewards once. Wanted to build a double storey flat roofed extension on the back of my flat-roofed dormers chalet bungalow. I admit it was ugly but no-one else could see it. Rear garden was not overlooked at all. They stuck to their guns. I stuck to mine. Went to appeal and did manage to slightly bend the inspector's ear. 'Their argument is that it will detrimental to the street scene. My argument is it can't be seen from the street and the only people who could see it would be in planes.' I won.

[azogar]

Have you ever been through this process? I have. After planning is refused you appeal. Once the appeal is submitted nothing you or the planners say or do has the slightest affect on the process.

When the plannng inspector visits you and the planning department's representatives are not allowed to make representations. You have made your case on paper, as have the council. The planning inspector can ask you questions if they wish and you can answer them but neither you nor the council can 'bend their ear'.

Once you have appealed, the planning officers will not waste their time discussing the application with you - unless you wish to talk about submitting a modified application.

I beat the barstewards once. Wanted to build a double storey flat roofed extension on the back of my flat-roofed dormers chalet bungalow. I admit it was ugly but no-one else could see it. Rear garden was not overlooked at all. They stuck to their guns. I stuck to mine. Went to appeal and did manage to slightly bend the inspector's ear. 'Their argument is that it will detrimental to the street scene. My argument is it can't be seen from the street and the only people who could see it would be in planes.' I won.

yes - three times

I got turned down on my initial OPP for 'area build up' and 'access'; I requested a site meeting with the PO had my agent and local councilor present - we got the PO to see the error of her ways. We then appealed and got the OPP.

After this we submitted full PP this got OK'd but by the time the house was built there were significant changes to the structure. The PO came out after the build and I had to then apply for retrospective PP as a new full PP application (££) and I certainly do not advise this to anyone (a complete stress nightmare).

My point about the appeal procedure is this - if you can play by a long time frame and have deep pockets and have a good hunch you have a case then by re-submission / appeal following site meeting you may get there in the end - this is my story anyway.

edit - i should add that i am in NI so this may be relevant or not

Edited December 21, 2007 by prophet-profit

[Downtraded]

Don't even think about applying for planning yourself. The best way to maximise the value of the land is to market it through a land agent as a site with development potential. If it actually has any development potential the local developers are likely to make you offers conditional upon obtaining planning. If you market it as a development site and no-one is interested it almost certainly has no development potential.

I would recommend you invite three local land agents (estate agents or chartered surveyors specialising in the sale of development land) to give you their opinion.

The first thing land agents and developers will do is exactly what I've said in an earlier post - see planning for an appraisal.

What they CAN'T do is maximise the area (Remove trees, Widen driveway etc) first.

The quickest way to get restrictions is to do what you say. This happened to a neighbour where I used to live.

She had 4.5 acres of garden and unfortunately for her, developers caused her garden to have preservation orders slapped on trees and a boundary hedge. If that boundary hedge had not been there (!), her garden and her neighbours would have been worth at least 5 times what they would sell as 2 houses with big gardens.

This guy needs to get clued up and fast BEFORE he does what you say.

Also, the conditional offer in this case was hopeless. The neighbour in question was offered a paltry 30K!

As I say, anyone trying to sell their garden off for development will find themselves up against a clsoed system which tries to maxmise their profit and not that of the seller.

However, in general I agree. The land agent is useful but only after certain things have been done first.

[southsea13]

Birds do massive damage to worm life. And, like cats, some birds do massive damage to mice and voles etc.

Frightening a cat so it doesn't come near your property - a water pistol perhaps - is one thing. Lobbing a brick at an animal that is probably a pet and which, if it is injured, the owner will probably stump up the necessary fortune at the VET's to get it treated, is another.

The person in question (who lobbed the brick) is lucky that I am not the cat-owner in question. I'd have flattened the cu*nt there and then - just so he was under no misapprehension about my position.

I don't care whether you like my pets - just don't throw bricks at them. Mine over the years have annoyed neighbours that were keen gardeners. I bought them (the neighbours, not the cats) water pistols. It works like a charm. Couple of wettings and puss keeps clear.

Cruelty to animals is just not on at all. At this time of year so many cats, dogs and other animals are bought as presents, then thrown out like the rubbish once the novelty wears off

Sure, maybe cats do damage to other animals, but - as hunters - that is in their nature. I suppose putting a bell on a cat might stop other creatures being in danger, but then I think this **** of a neighbour was trying to p*ss you off. If anyone tried lobbing a brick at my cat then I`d lob it back at them (after all aren`t they acting in a way that was dangerous for the cat? Who said humans own the planet?!)

Sure, they might call the police, but a criminal record is hardly anything to be ashamed of these days (quite the opposite!) (BTW I think the water pistol is a good deterrent if the neighbours really object to cats).

[nige2008]

As I say, anyone trying to sell their garden off for development will find themselves up against a clsoed system which tries to maxmise their profit and not that of the seller.

However, in general I agree. The land agent is useful but only after certain things have been done first.

Thanks for all the replies.

I phoned the planning office 3 days ago to ask for a pre app discussion but was told that I could send a small map by email (same as the map I posted here) and that a planning officer would get back to me. I still haven't had a reply yet so maybe the email address didn't work. As I haven't done anything like this before I don't know who's side the planning officer would be on. after talking on the phone they sounded helpful and I have heard that it is quite a good are for getting planning approved. also with the housing shortage I would have thought that it's best for the council (with added rates etc from a new house) to want new properties built. Would they make it hard for me or what? It's probably different depending on the area I suppose. The problem I see is that the neighbors would involve the councilor as they do and I have heard they they sometimes get together and petition against things!

Anyway, would it be best for me to try to get OPP for a new house or should I try for an extension onto the existing property? I imagine it would be a lot easier to get it for the latter but I also imagine that OPP for a new house would add a lot more value to the land if I sell. If I made an application it would cost me £312 so an appeal would put it up to £624, a lot of money to lose but well worth it if I got the OPP.

If do decide to sell I have thought that the best way would be through auction and that I could advertise the property to as many free sites on the internet, as it is a very nice country location perfect for either a builder or someone wanting to move to the country with money to invest in the place.

Has anyone got any advice on the best way forward for me?

Thanks

nige2008

[The Masked Tulip]

Hi,

As others have indicated you need to seek professional advice from surveyors, architects, etc, rather than asking on here. Ask around friends and neighbours for advice also, just in case they know of people who can help you.

I personally would have thought, although have no concrete evidence of this, that planning permission would add value to your sale BUT... is the extra stress and hassle worth it knowing you have the neighbours you have? Any planning application would become Public knowledge and anyone could oppose it causing you all sorts of stress.

It might be your car this time but next time it might be far worse.

I have seen similar posts on the neighbours from hell website's forum so perhaps you could pop on over there.

Best of luck,

TMT.

[azogar]

Thanks for all the replies.

I phoned the planning office 3 days ago to ask for a pre app discussion but was told that I could send a small map by email (same as the map I posted here) and that a planning officer would get back to me. I still haven't had a reply yet so maybe the email address didn't work. As I haven't done anything like this before I don't know who's side the planning officer would be on. after talking on the phone they sounded helpful and I have heard that it is quite a good are for getting planning approved. also with the housing shortage I would have thought that it's best for the council (with added rates etc from a new house) to want new properties built. Would they make it hard for me or what? It's probably different depending on the area I suppose. The problem I see is that the neighbors would involve the councilor as they do and I have heard they they sometimes get together and petition against things!

Anyway, would it be best for me to try to get OPP for a new house or should I try for an extension onto the existing property? I imagine it would be a lot easier to get it for the latter but I also imagine that OPP for a new house would add a lot more value to the land if I sell. If I made an application it would cost me £312 so an appeal would put it up to £624, a lot of money to lose but well worth it if I got the OPP.

If do decide to sell I have thought that the best way would be through auction and that I could advertise the property to as many free sites on the internet, as it is a very nice country location perfect for either a builder or someone wanting to move to the country with money to invest in the place.

Has anyone got any advice on the best way forward for me?

Thanks

nige2008

I still reckon you should speak to a few surveyors (even better if they are recommended by word of mouth) and canvass their opinions - without commiting to use their services.

with regard to OPP vs extension, OPP every time - provided you have a chance and you're prepared to lose the fee (+ appeal cost)

PS Downtraded made some good points re. tree cover

[Downtraded]

Thanks for all the replies.

I phoned the planning office 3 days ago to ask for a pre app discussion but was told that I could send a small map by email (same as the map I posted here) and that a planning officer would get back to me. I still haven't had a reply yet so maybe the email address didn't work. As I haven't done anything like this before I don't know who's side the planning officer would be on. after talking on the phone they sounded helpful and I have heard that it is quite a good are for getting planning approved. also with the housing shortage I would have thought that it's best for the council (with added rates etc from a new house) to want new properties built. Would they make it hard for me or what? It's probably different depending on the area I suppose. The problem I see is that the neighbors would involve the councilor as they do and I have heard they they sometimes get together and petition against things!

Anyway, would it be best for me to try to get OPP for a new house or should I try for an extension onto the existing property? I imagine it would be a lot easier to get it for the latter but I also imagine that OPP for a new house would add a lot more value to the land if I sell. If I made an application it would cost me £312 so an appeal would put it up to £624, a lot of money to lose but well worth it if I got the OPP.

If do decide to sell I have thought that the best way would be through auction and that I could advertise the property to as many free sites on the internet, as it is a very nice country location perfect for either a builder or someone wanting to move to the country with money to invest in the place.

Has anyone got any advice on the best way forward for me?

Thanks

nige2008

As you've already tried by phone, I'd go into the office and ask to see a planning officer when you are there. Wait in the office and over a few hours, you'll realsie its an educational experience. You'll overhear what goes on and the sort of things people complain about.

Anyway, it sounds like planning permission for a separate dwelling could be granted relatively painlessly and this is the least you should do. I wouldn't go for an extension if you are going to sell.

The trick is to find out if you can develop in the garden. You probably can't but it won't prejudice you anyway to find out.

If you are only allowed one dwelling, then don't bother with land agents - just sell as normal.

Take this advice as you find it - on a public forum. However, don't be afraid of the planning department. They are more on your side than you realise. After all, you are income to them.

[Downtraded]

Hi,

Ask around friends and neighbours for advice also, just in case they know of people who can help you.

I personally would have thought, although have no concrete evidence of this, that planning permission would add value to your sale BUT... is the extra stress and hassle worth it knowing you have the neighbours you have? Any planning application would become Public knowledge and anyone could oppose it causing you all sorts of stress.

It might be your car this time but next time it might be far worse.

I have seen similar posts on the neighbours from hell website's forum so perhaps you could pop on over there.

Best of luck,

TMT.

I would have thought that asking neighbours is the last thing he should do!

[kevla22]

HI nige2008

As others have suggested you need to speak to the duty officer, they usually have an open day (wednesday in my area) where you can go in and discuss your proposal in person. It is always best to take a softly softly approach, ask them what the local needs are, they will often suggest how best to utilise the land.

The local development framework must be adhered to and is far to detailed to discuss here, be very wary of architects too because very few are honest. If the council suggest they would support a "new build" then draw up some plans yourself (look at examples on housebuilder sites) and talk them through with the council, sometimes the planning office will state that you have to submit detailed plans as opposed to a basic plan for OPP, talk to them about this.

If you can get OPP for a dwelling then i would suggest that you should sell the land and house separately as you will realise a larger profit this way but bear in mind people don't really want to live next to a building site!. If however you are selling the house as an unfinished project with the plot included then yes the plot will add value but probably not as much as selling both individually.

Be very wary of the dreaded EA as well, these days they value houses in need of work (and plots as well) at just below ceiling prices so be realistic about re-sale figures. Plots are sold taking into account a land agents view of build costs and do not allow for profit so again be realistic. A good way to sell fast is to price as follows:

If the existing house could be worth say 200k when complete then:

200 - 10% profit = 180k

Minus cost of remaining work (20k for example) = 160k

Minus carry costs (15k) = 145k

So to attract a quick sale in this case a realistic sale figure would be 145k

If the new build has an expected end value of 300k then:

300k - 20% builders profit = 240k

minus build cost (140k) = 100k

minus services (5k) = 95k

minus site setup (5k) = 90k

minus carry costs (30k) = 60k

So a realistic re-sale would be 60k for the plot.

Hope this helps!

ps - one other thing i forgot to mention, do not be put of by troublesome neighbours, planners can spot trouble makers a mile off and if you can get the planner on side then it helps. It is common for councils to reject applications first time round, quite often because they are snowed under with applications and prefer to spend the time looking at appeals, people who appeal are generally more serious about the proposal. Check with the council during the 8 week period, they will hint whether it is likely to be granted, if not withdraw it and ammend as per their comments and re-submit. If it still gets refused then go to appeal and argue your case, with new builds down the road a precedent has been set, an appeals officer would be far more leniant to your proposal.

pps - a feasibility study always helps, shows that you have thought about local needs, how the house would fit with the street scene and environmental aspects. A professional attitude always goes down well, upmystreet.co.uk is a great source of demographic data.

Edited December 21, 2007 by kevla22

[nige2008]

HI nige2008

As others have suggested you need to speak to the duty officer, they usually have an open day (wednesday in my area) where you can go in and discuss your proposal in person. It is always best to take a softly softly approach, ask them what the local needs are, they will often suggest how best to utilise the land.

The local development framework must be adhered to and is far to detailed to discuss here, be very wary of architects too because very few are honest. If the council suggest they would support a "new build" then draw up some plans yourself (look at examples on housebuilder sites) and talk them through with the council, sometimes the planning office will state that you have to submit detailed plans as opposed to a basic plan for OPP, talk to them about this.

If you can get OPP for a dwelling then i would suggest that you should sell the land and house separately as you will realise a larger profit this way but bear in mind people don't really want to live next to a building site!. If however you are selling the house as an unfinished project with the plot included then yes the plot will add value but probably not as much as selling both individually.

Be very wary of the dreaded EA as well, these days they value houses in need of work (and plots as well) at just below ceiling prices so be realistic about re-sale figures. Plots are sold taking into account a land agents view of build costs and do not allow for profit so again be realistic. A good way to sell fast is to price as follows:

If the existing house could be worth say 200k when complete then:

200 - 10% profit = 180k

Minus cost of remaining work (20k for example) = 160k

Minus carry costs (15k) = 145k

So to attract a quick sale in this case a realistic sale figure would be 145k

If the new build has an expected end value of 300k then:

300k - 20% builders profit = 240k

minus build cost (140k) = 100k

minus services (5k) = 95k

minus site setup (5k) = 90k

minus carry costs (30k) = 60k

So a realistic re-sale would be 60k for the plot.

Hope this helps!

ps - one other thing i forgot to mention, do not be put of by troublesome neighbours, planners can spot trouble makers a mile off and if you can get the planner on side then it helps. It is common for councils to reject applications first time round, quite often because they are snowed under with applications and prefer to spend the time looking at appeals, people who appeal are generally more serious about the proposal. Check with the council during the 8 week period, they will hint whether it is likely to be granted, if not withdraw it and ammend as per their comments and re-submit. If it still gets refused then go to appeal and argue your case, with new builds down the road a precedent has been set, an appeals officer would be far more leniant to your proposal.

pps - a feasibility study always helps, shows that you have thought about local needs, how the house would fit with the street scene and environmental aspects. A professional attitude always goes down well, upmystreet.co.uk is a great source of demographic data.

Hi, I phoned the planning office again and was told that the telegraph pole would have to be moved and that I would need to be able to create off road parking for two vehicles. I was then advised to check the Unitary Development Plan for my area at the council website. I've done that now and it says that I'm H3 / EC3 , this looks ok to me as it's the same as the two houses that have just been built 3 doors up. Off road parking could be created to the rear of the property so the telegraph pole seems the main hurdle.

My property as it is I would say could be worth 80k or 85k finished it would be near the 110k or 115k , with OPP the plot could be worth 25k or 30k and a finished new house on the plot could be worth again 110k or 115k. I figured that if I could manage to get OPP that I would go to auction and put a reserve of 100k.

I've left my number with the planning office and they said they would phone me back on Monday morning so I hope to arrange a meeting with them soon and I was told they would do a site visit also. I asked about the two new builds 3 doors up and asked if planning permission was easier for them because there were houses previously there. The answer was no, because the houses were derelict it makes no difference.

Thanks for all the other advice, I've noted it all and will see how it goes from here ...

nige2008