Moroccan Property Hype

[dogbox]

But there will always be 'investors' like Dogbox who'll not give two hoots about those types of issues, just 'flip' and make a quick buck.

Sigh.....

wrong again.

Look, Ive been over this before, so here we go again;

I dont know whether I will flip or hold, but I like as an investor to have BOTH EXIT ROUTES, get it?

People I know who play golf tell me the rental yield will be beyond even my wildest dreams, so I may well hold and see if they are correct

I am definitely not a flipper. I happened to have some properties whose value went up a lot, to my surprise.

I was thinking lately of buying some holiday home(s) but I could not find some good ratio quality/price because

everywhere flippers made a good living in the last 5 years.

Ah ha, so your quite happy that your property has gone up in value, but how dare Moroccan property be priced above £5000 (the figure you mention is the correct sum for Moroccan property).

I can pay $1m+ for a small beach front plot in the Bahamas, yet go 2 miles down the coast and I can get 'em for $5000.

Its all about location.

Saidia will definitely become an extremely soughtafter development, but few of you seem to understand why so Im probably wasting my breath.

[dogbox]

I do 'know' something about Morocco - sheesh I live here ! Dogbox, who has NEVER been here, cannot give his opinion on the place. Whether MY opinion is right or wrong it is my opinion because I am here. You may not like my opinion. But being over the Internet, the only thing I suggest for you is whether to believe my opinions or not.

Ive found in business and investing that MOST people will disagree with your choices, so I decided some time ago to try and stick with my original gut - feel rather than be blown off - course.

You imply that only THOSE ON THE GROUND WITH MOROCCAN EXPERIENCE have the necessary tools in the box to know wjether the investment is good or not.

This is just wrong. MOST people didnt do UK B2L when the time was right EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD A LIFETIME LIVING HERE, get it?

Look at the history of ALL investments. MOST people fail to recognise them hence why they are good investments. They become worse investments once the crowd suddenly gets the picture.

Take Croatia in 1997. People said early property investors were nutz what with all the ethnic wars and ruined economy. Fast forward to 2006 and now the crowd thinks Croatia is just an obvious decent place to invest.

Edited September 20, 2006 by dogbox

[catara]

Ah ha, so your quite happy that your property has gone up in value, but how dare Moroccan property be priced above £5000 (the figure you mention is the correct sum for Moroccan property).

Well, they were in Romania (country who will join EU in 3 months) and the price went up 6 times from 1996 to 2006.

Morocco will not join any EU, will not get rid of their Islamic threat, Moroccan people willnot become richer in the near future and the King cannot create miracles in Third World coutries.

People who want to play golf can go to Canary Island or even Murcia area.

The future of Morocco tourism consist in all-inclusive hotels which will not leave much space to renting apartments.

Take Croatia in 1997. People said early property investors were nutz what with all the ethnic wars and ruined economy. Fast forward to 2006 and now the crowd thinks Croatia is just an obvious decent place to invest.

This is a good example (Croatia).

But the period of cheap investments and great capital gains has ended. Montenegro is the beggining and prices are more or less as in Croatia.

Same for Cape Verde, where prices are more or less as in Canary Islands.

Investments become available after the locals have had their share of speculation (same is true for Romania where foreign investors have not started yet but local speculation has put the prices at the same level as in Poland or HUngary).

In Morocco there will be no capital gain.

[dogbox]

ON RAMPING....

The title of this portion of the forum is 'Overseas Property Investing'.

Im not ramping (as if this limited exposure would have any impact in the great scheme).

Its an area to discuss overseas investments.

I started one on Germany last year and got the same accusations hurled my way!

Morocco seems to have stirred - up a big reaction since I first started a thread on it. Other threads, for eaxmple mine on Estonia didnt get this reaction. Thats not my engineering, its just what naturally happened.

The reasons for this reaction are complex but it tells me Morocco will indeed be big. Soem sort of love / hate thang going down

I merely enjoy sharing investment ideas and genuinly just intended people to be aware of what an amazing investment Morocco is, although like any investment there is always a downside.

For those that wish to stick with low growth tired mature markets then fine but they dont get me very excited.

[catara]

Morocco seems to have stirred - up a big reaction since I first started a thread on it. Other threads, for eaxmple mine on Estonia didnt get this reaction. Thats not my engineering, its just what naturally happened.

if I remember correctly, in Estonia you invested 15000 Euros which is really nothing.

Also, Estonia is part of EU and one of the area which will grow. So that is a good investment, it will probably triple in the next 10 years.

[dogbox]

if I remember correctly, in Estonia you invested 15000 Euros which is really nothing.

Also, Estonia is part of EU and one of the area which will grow. So that is a good investment, it will probably triple in the next 10 years.

Yes, so you can see I do consider low cost investments.

However, I also recognise some property attracts a premium such as that in Sadia.

You assert that because Morocco is poor no property should have such prices, but this is plain wrong.

There are plenty of premium priced properties in Estonia.

Similarly there are £1m properties in another place you mention . . .Montenagro, yet there are also whole farms for £10000.

Again on the island of Great Exuma Bahamas are properties for $5000 rubbing shoulders with 500m2 lots over $1m.

Take Mumbai India; Next to million dollar condos are pittiful slums.

You dont seem to understand what Saidia offers and I cant be bothered to go over it again.

[catara]

You dont seem to understand what Saidia offers and I cant be bothered to go over it again.

I could not care less of what Saidia is offering, there are millions of other places to visit. If there will be 1 bedrrom apt with £100/week for rent (and no iminent terorist threat), I shall go sometimes in the future to check it out.

[BigLog]

BigLog,

Can you clarify for me what you are for and what you are against?

Are you againist DogBox et. al. because they a) are ramping up prices and buying into something that pushes prices out of the reach of the average Moroccan?

OR

Are you against Vision 2010 and the aims of increasing tourism in Morocco?

Hi Jibber,

That's a good question (and an easy one).

Definitely AGAINST the former - Definitely FOR the latter.

Thanks.

[dogbox]

Hi Jibber,

That's a good question (and an easy one).

Definitely AGAINST the former - Definitely FOR the latter.

Thanks.

Log

the latter (vision 2010) relies on a huge cash injection and that relies on people like me risking thier hard earned cash.

Other methods of economic stimulation such as those tried in Cuba have all ended in failure. In the end a struggling economy / company needs new money to make it work.

If you have a better plan whereby investors can be rewarded for thier risk (just as you are rewarded by salary) and that will help Moroccans let us know.

[BrickingIt]

Dogbox

Morocco has Sun, it sounds exotic, the brochures look great, it looks like it is being backed.

However

It doesn't look particularly cheap in some respects. The infrastucture is very poor, the finished result will be unknown, the market in Spain, its nearest competitor is getting swamped and rocking, the economic environment is turning against this sort of investment and you won't realise for years.

[catara]

It doesn't look particularly cheap in some respects. The infrastucture is very poor, the finished result will be unknown, the market in Spain, its nearest competitor is getting swamped and rocking, the economic environment is turning against this sort of investment and you won't realise for years.

I kept explaining the same thing to dogbox and his friends, but they do not listen. The market in Spain will crash and the market in Morocco will not increase, at least for about 5 years.

In 15 years from now they might sell at a good profit. BUt the flippers usually do not hold properties for 15 years...

[lina]

It doesn't look particularly cheap in some respects. The infrastucture is very poor, the finished result will be unknown, the market in Spain, its nearest competitor is getting swamped and rocking, the economic environment is turning against this sort of investment and you won't realise for years.

I was actually at the point of parting with my 1st 20% in Saidia. i have now pulled out. yes it did have a lot to do with the lack of bank gaurantee but my other main reason was in the end i could not get my head around the fact that i was paying 120k for a 2 bed apartment. I will admit that i am a complete novice and i know nothing about investment abroad. My train of thought (and some my laugh was as follows.

i live on Birmingham. Here you can buy a 2 bed apatment near the city centre for near enough 120k.

In birmingham we have a completly new and revamped shopping centre with all the designer labels that you could want. we have lots of of places to eat and visit .lots and lots of evening entertainment.we have a health service. we have police that dont try and take a bribe every 2 seconds. we have free education . we have great roads.we have a fire service ,i could go on and on.

How can morocco a country that is miles away from the infastructure of the uk be commanding the same prices.we are here now. they will not be there for 20-30 years.

[catara]

How can morocco a country that is miles away from the infastructure of the uk be commanding the same prices.we are here now. they will not be there for 20-30 years.

Because they knew there are people paying twice as much for an apartment in Spain.

And they said that Morocco is more less like Spain (believe or not...) , even better in many ways. Considering that the biggest thieves selling on the Spanish market went to the Morocco market, they knew how to touch sensible points of some people.

This is how they could sell small 1 bedroom apts. in Morocco for 50000 pounds... Shame on the real estate crooks and the media who lied to people!

[adibrown]

Because they knew there are people paying twice as much for an apartment in Spain.

And they said that Morocco is more less like Spain (believe or not...) , even better in many ways. Considering that the biggest thieves selling on the Spanish market went to the Morocco market, they knew how to touch sensible points of some people.

This is how they could sell small 1 bedroom apts. in Morocco for 50000 pounds... Shame on the real estate crooks and the media who lied to people!

I fully agree. I could go to Algeria, buy 10,000 acres for £10,000. I would then explain that BA flies daily to Algiers and this spot is only 2 hours from the airport, I would get impoverished local workers to build a "Five Star" resort for 1/20th the cost of EC and then with my new golf course claim that everyone will be flying to Algeria to play WinterGolf. My brochures would be glossy and promote the golden sunsets, the fine cuisine and the exotic culture. I would be targetting the people ploughing money into anything cheap in Europe and I would spend around £100k on marketing to UK and Ireland.

Of course I would carefully omit any mention of civil war, mass killings, tortures etc or the fact that the real cost to build the 3 bed villas was £3,000 or the fact that a similar sized property in the area costs £7,000 . Now these Villas would go on the market for £75k. Can you believe it £75k for a Med Villa in the sun.

Next you slap a sticker on them saying 75% reserved. You drip feed them in to the market and away you go. Oh yes and I forgot to say you have 5 phases. As people come into phase one you tell them that phase two is going to be £x more expensive and phase 2 you tell them phase 3 is going to be even more etc. What you create is a bubble market within your one development.

As word gets round that prices are increasing and people have already made profits the greedy gather round. Its all going so well until one little thing happens.....someone gets caught up in a little bit of trouble. Fred from Leicester and his friends get blown up in what appears a routine terrorist attack in Algiers. The papers pick up the story...nothing major but just enough to decrease supply by about 10% that Summer. All of a sudden there are a few places not selling on phase 4 and a few people on Phase one have got jittery and put there resale property on the market for 10% less than the new builds on phase 4. All of a sudden a couple of people who came over to inspect new builds are buying resale so to counter this the developer decides to decrease the price of phase 4 slightly to capture these visitors. This decrease in price for many signals the start of a drop and all of a sudden the local government has started to squeeze the developer and introduced a new tax on foriegn owners. The resale signs crop up everywhere you look because the feeling is you have to get out now to realise a profit. New buyers no longer have an incentive to buy because their simply is no potential of capital growth and a new series of "holiday homes from hell" includes the nightmare reality of the Algerian Property Market. This is the final nail.

Three years on the development is awash with people looking to offload but they simply can't. Some have put properties on the market for £55k but even then they aren't selling. You see the only reason for buying has now gone so why would anyone buy. Of course you have a home somewhere warm but the fact that Algeria isn't Spain has hit home and lack of cheap airfares and the fact that the golf course/restaurant is now run by a local gangster (Ex AIG leader) with robberies, intimidation and muggings common place make the thought of staying there even for a holiday an impossibility.

A few people flipped early on and these guys made a quick £20k, others decided to hold on because resale was a virtual impossibility whilst new build continued. In the end the developer made money for nothing and left almost 700 UK buyers with nothing more than worthless villas in an impoverished African country. Almost 100 million pounds made from a £10k plot of land in the desert. How did it suceed? Simple marketing and playing on the sudden greed of UK residents to play the overseas property game. The mentality now is that property is a win/win but when the music stops I'd rather be in Spain than Morocco or Romania or Estonia etc

Edited September 21, 2006 by adibrown

[BigLog]

It doesn't look particularly cheap in some respects. The infrastucture is very poor, the finished result will be unknown, the market in Spain, its nearest competitor is getting swamped and rocking, the economic environment is turning against this sort of investment and you won't realise for years.

I was actually at the point of parting with my 1st 20% in Saidia. i have now pulled out. yes it did have a lot to do with the lack of bank gaurantee but my other main reason was in the end i could not get my head around the fact that i was paying 120k for a 2 bed apartment. I will admit that i am a complete novice and i know nothing about investment abroad. My train of thought (and some my laugh was as follows.

i live on Birmingham. Here you can buy a 2 bed apatment near the city centre for near enough 120k.

In birmingham we have a completly new and revamped shopping centre with all the designer labels that you could want. we have lots of of places to eat and visit .lots and lots of evening entertainment.we have a health service. we have police that dont try and take a bribe every 2 seconds. we have free education . we have great roads.we have a fire service ,i could go on and on.

How can morocco a country that is miles away from the infastructure of the uk be commanding the same prices.we are here now. they will not be there for 20-30 years.

Lina,

I didn't laugh.

What Dogbox fails to understand is that I'm actually trying to help him.

Your comment about police taking bribes every 2 seconds is interesting. That small sentence tells me you've been here and you have some experience.

This is the VERY thing I've been trying to hammer home to Dogbox.

But, he won't listen to sage advice.

wrong again.

Look, Ive been over this before, so here we go again;

I dont know whether I will flip or hold, but I like as an investor to have BOTH EXIT ROUTES, get it?

People I know who play golf tell me the rental yield will be beyond even my wildest dreams, so I may well hold and see if they are correct

But Dogbox, it is so blatently clear that you are a flipper.

Let's stop dreaming.

You are not the sort of rich person that will buy a holiday home in a country that you've never been to.

Not many sane people would (e.g. Wacko Jacko)

You also seem to have forgotten that you mentioned in your previous posts that;

Golf isn't your thing and you've never played,

Morocco isn't your cup of tea,

Gucci isn't your bag (no pub intended).

And yes, initially you mentioned nothing about flipping. But we're not idiots, over the course of time the cat has been slowing coming out of the bag and Flipping (by you) has been mentioned many times.

Come and invest here Dogbox, come and live here, be a part of the solution. But don't use these people, adding to their problems.

[catara]

The mentality now is that property is a win/win but when the music stops I'd rather be in Spain than Morocco or Romania or Estonia etc

Well Estonia and Romania still have some properties (land, apartments) in good area for less than 10000Euros.

In Spain a good time to but will be after the 2007-2008 crash. Of course, it might be even better to buy then the 1/3 price properties in MOrocco...

[lina]

Lina,

I didn't laugh.

What Dogbox fails to understand is that I'm actually trying to help him.

Your comment about police taking bribes every 2 seconds is interesting. That small sentence tells me you've been here and you have some experience.

This is the VERY thing I've been trying to hammer home to Dogbox.

But, he won't listen to sage advice.

i do have some experiance. My parents are from pakistan. i have visited there often.i know the way things work in these countries. you cannot acheive anything or move forward in any way without having to bribe someone or another. it is not the locals fault, they get paid a pittance of a wage,especially the police for the work that they do.Anything can be purchased from a driving licence to a degree.Pakistan real estate has rocketed in the last few years even thought there is poor infastucture and extreme poverty . this is becouse as you may know that in the 1950s there was a

massive influx of immigrants invited in to the uk from pakistan becouse the workforce was needed.

Becouse the people of pakistan have very strong loyalty to extended family money started to pour in to pakistan from the masive settlement of immigtants in the uk. this has been going on for the last 40-50 years. even the generation of today have very srtong links and loyalties.for this reason the prices have gone up and up. it is not due to massive tourism ofr offplan but down to millions of expats that still dream of one day moving back home.

also i will tell you a liitle story. My mother purchased a property in Karachi 35 years ago.She was a

pakistani citazen who had grown up there. When she came to england she put tenants in. The tennant was a very well respected lawyer. its a long story so ill cut it short. up untill today my mother is embroiled in a legal battle becouse the lawyer knew every trick in the book and the law of that country so she could run rings around my mother who was sitting in the uk. the courts in pakistan have actually awareded the property to the tennant and my mother has been in appeals ever since.

this is what worries me about morocco. the locals are very similar to the people in pakistan , if they find an oppurtunity to run rings around a foreigner believe me 90% of them will take it. Not becouse they are evil people but becouse they are poor and as human nature, they want what everyone else has.

[catara]

this is what worries me about morocco. the locals are very similar to the people in pakistan , if they find an oppurtunity to run rings around a foreigner believe me 90% of them will take it. Not becouse they are evil people but becouse they are poor and as human nature, they want what everyone else has.

This is why 15000 pounds is a maximum price I would consider paying for a property in Morocco.

That amount of money can be risked in unsecure countries. 50000 pounds is a huge amount of money and I am not so crazy.

Edited September 21, 2006 by catara

[BigLog]

i do have some experiance. My parents are from pakistan. i have visited there often.i know the way things work in these countries. you cannot acheive anything or move forward in any way without having to bribe someone or another. it is not the locals fault, they get paid a pittance of a wage,especially the police for the work that they do.Anything can be purchased from a driving licence to a degree.Pakistan real estate has rocketed in the last few years even thought there is poor infastucture and extreme poverty . this is becouse as you may know that in the 1950s there was a

massive influx of immigrants invited in to the uk from pakistan becouse the workforce was needed.

Becouse the people of pakistan have very strong loyalty to extended family money started to pour in to pakistan from the masive settlement of immigtants in the uk. this has been going on for the last 40-50 years. even the generation of today have very srtong links and loyalties.for this reason the prices have gone up and up. it is not due to massive tourism ofr offplan but down to millions of expats that still dream of one day moving back home.

also i will tell you a liitle story. My mother purchased a property in Karachi 35 years ago.She was a

pakistani citazen who had grown up there. When she came to england she put tenants in. The tennant was a very well respected lawyer. its a long story so ill cut it short. up untill today my mother is embroiled in a legal battle becouse the lawyer knew every trick in the book and the law of that country so she could run rings around my mother who was sitting in the uk. the courts in pakistan have actually awareded the property to the tennant and my mother has been in appeals ever since.

this is what worries me about morocco. the locals are very similar to the people in pakistan , if they find an oppurtunity to run rings around a foreigner believe me 90% of them will take it. Not becouse they are evil people but becouse they are poor and as human nature, they want what everyone else has.

Are you listening Dogbox ?? Or has Soup Dragon got another answer for you ?? Or are you going to quote us Northern Ireland again, or the West Indies ?

Lina,

That's very interesting and I thank you for the insight.

I know many stories here in Morocco about Lawyers - some say they are the most corrupt of the lot over here.

Everything that you have said rings a note with me.

I know it sounds incredibly selfish, but I just can't bring myself to share my own experiences. I've paid heavily in order to learn, and if people want to come over here and risk, then they're going to need to go through the same process (or pay me).

By the way Lina, if I said to you that I wanted to buy a holiday home in Pakistan, and I've never been there. What would you think of me ?? You, as an experienced person, what would you think?? You'd at least think 'go and see it, to see if you like it' no ? And if I kept telling you that you don't know what you are talking about, who would be seen as the more crazy/stupid/foolish ??

Be honest what would you think ?

Edited September 21, 2006 by BigLog

[dogbox]

This bit the neg - heads keep spouting about 'how can Morocco command such prices when the local sell thier own property for just £7000'

Time and again I find certain resorts command a disproportionate price premium, YET THE SURROUNDING INFRASTRUCTURE AND LOCAL POPULATION IS POOR.

There are thousands of examples from the Philippines (I stayed in Amanpulo which is £500 per night, yet ALL the surrounding islands were poverty stricken) to South Africa, Grenada to the Bahamas, Ceylon to The Maldives.

You can stay at the Four Seasons resort on the poverty sricken island of Great Exuma Bahamas and pay thousands per night YET THE ISLAND HAS NO INFRASTRUCTURE, NO HOSPITALS etc. CAN YOU SEE MY POINT? Just down the road are piss - por guesthouses charging $30.00 dollars per night!

The question is why is it certain enclosed resorts command such prices?

It all boils down to the experience on offer. Saidia is fairly unique. It isnt the case this is just another resort. For example some very prestigious Spannish resort such as LA MANGA dont even have a marina let alone a first class mega marina which Saidia has.

The pampered guests will not find many resorts with a mrina like thgis and 3 golf courses and on a large beach, they simply wont at this price point.

Lina,

Your comment about police taking bribes every 2 seconds is interesting. That small sentence tells me you've been here and you have some experience.

Bribes, so what?

A few years back it was common to hear French Police demanding private road side bribes of foriegn drivers.

Some investors I know bought in Sardinia a few years back and have seen a massive return despite bribes being part of the culture.

Another red Herring.

[BigLog]

The pampered guests will not find many resorts with a mrina like thgis and 3 golf courses and on a large beach, they simply wont at this price point.

Ha ha ha......

The "Pampered Guests"

That sums up your absolutely incredible ignorance on this subject.

If that's what you think and you are in this for the long term then you really need to get your ar$e over here and do your research properly as you really are talking about something you know nothing about.

Only in a local investment journal last week did I read about the severe crisis in Morocco regarding the quality of hotel staff and on what basis they are having to employ them on.

Probably much to your relief, I think I'll just let you burn your cash as I can't be bothered telling you any more. I'd rather go and bang my head on a wall.

Apologies for what may sound like personal insults to you, you've sounded like a nice enough chap in the past, but you chose the wrong thing to say at the wrong time.

Edited September 21, 2006 by BigLog

[lina]

Are you listening Dogbox ?? Or has Soup Dragon got another answer for you ?? Or are you going to quote us Northern Ireland again, or the West Indies ?

Lina,

That's very interesting and I thank you for the insight.

I know many stories here in Morocco about Lawyers - some say they are the most corrupt of the lot over here.

Everything that you have said rings a note with me.

I know it sounds incredibly selfish, but I just can't bring myself to share my own experiences. I've paid heavily in order to learn, and if people want to come over here and risk, then they're going to need to go through the same process (or pay me).

By the way Lina, if I said to you that I wanted to buy a holiday home in Pakistan, and I've never been there. What would you think of me ?? You, as an experienced person, what would you think?? You'd at least think 'go and see it, to see if you like it' no ? And if I kept telling you that you don't know what you are talking about, who would be seen as the more crazy/stupid/foolish ??

Be honest what would you think ?

Yes if you ask me for an honest answer i would say that anyone considering buying a holiday home if they where not a local or an expat was mad. and believe me even if you did go out and have alook you would still have no idea.The legal system and politics work hand in hand and people can get away with anything if they have enough money and contacts even Murder.

When i think long and hard what also worries me about saidia is that it will not be a closed resort, locals will be able to come on to the resort without any major restrictions. after all they have been using the beaches for years. i wonder what effect it will have on the locals seeing all this luxury and how the other half live.all the time watching prices of everything go up and up even there localy grown produce will start to become to expensive for the poor.

to be honest i only started to look at property investment abroad so i could provide well for my children in the future but i am very quickly talking myself out of investing in any emerging market.

[dogbox]

I know many stories here in Morocco about Lawyers - some say they are the most corrupt of the lot over here.

Im not naive, of course I fully realise the extent of such problems.

However, I will take safeguards, for example if I sell, the contract will state no sale has taken place until all funds reach my UK account and that this is entirely the purchasers responsibility and not mine to ensure fund reach me.

I will also use large capital City Lawyers, not a one man band Notary.

As I say I may well not sell as the rentla income could be very lucrative. If you look at ELOUNDA in Crete which has no beach, no Golf, no marina the villas rent from £5000 per week FOR A 1 BED (shown in Elegant Resorts brochures). Mine is a three bed with own pool and all the facilities.

Im not buying a one - off property Im buying in a large development where big international retailers and hotel chains are also investing. Ive done what I can to minimise risk.

Something you need to understand;

I AM PREPARED TO TAKE A RISK. I dont like to sit around marking time, I want to improve my lot.

I also invest in low risk areas.

to be honest i only started to look at property investment abroad so i could provide well for my children in the future but i am very quickly talking myself out of investing in any emerging market.

I agree, investing abroad does'nt suit your risk - profile. Stick it the Bank.

[BigLog]

.......and believe me even if you did go out and have alook you would still have no idea.The legal system and politics work hand in hand and people can get away with anything if they have enough money and contacts even Murder.

Exactly !

You'd have to stay there, absorb the place to get a real vibe - I've been here 3+ years

When i think long and hard what also worries me about saidia is that it will not be a closed resort, locals will be able to come on to the resort without any major restrictions. after all they have been using the beaches for years. i wonder what effect it will have on the locals seeing all this luxury and how the other half live........

I'm not sure that it won't be a closed resort, but as you say, if you have money or contacts, you can do anything. Even if it is a closed resort, a few friendly words to the 'security' guards will easily get you in.

........all the time watching prices of everything go up and up even there localy grown produce will start to become to expensive for the poor.

I've mentioned this point to Dogbox in the past, he can't see it'll be a problem.

Again, using me and your example of Pakistan as an example - what would you think !

Edited September 21, 2006 by BigLog

[dogbox]

Only in a local investment journal last week did I read about the severe crisis in Morocco regarding the quality of hotel staff and on what basis they are having to employ them on.

Why do you sieze upon any negative aspect?

Sure there are challenges but Im certain Moroccans have just as much capacity to become competent hotel staff as any other peoples.

We are all people. I found the poorer the country the better the service persoanaly and far better than the arrogant fat cows that serve in UK hotels.