The Immigration Debate Your Views

[laurejon]

I am interested to hear people views on Immigration.

I am particularly interested at present because I am a taxpayer that is being told my hard earnt taxes are going to be spent on paying Assylum Seekers and illegal immigrants to go home.

The Government is giving every immigrant that goes home 3k each in an effort to remove them from the UK.

Therefore my question is simply this.

For the past seven years I have been told that immigrants are invaluable to the UK, if that be the case then why would we be paying them 3k each to leave ?.

Any ideas ?.

[Solvent Celt]

I am interested to hear people views on Immigration.

I am particularly interested at present because I am a taxpayer that is being told my hard earnt taxes are going to be spent on paying Assylum Seekers and illegal immigrants to go home.

The Government is giving every immigrant that goes home 3k each in an effort to remove them from the UK.

Therefore my question is simply this.

For the past seven years I have been told that immigrants are invaluable to the UK, if that be the case then why would we be paying them 3k each to leave ?.

Any ideas ?.

Is this true. Can you provide a link?

The government is jailing pensioners who can't pay their council tax yet giving cash handouts to the rest of the world.

The only incentive we should give immigrants to leave is the sharp end of a bayonet if they don't.

[laurejon]

I am afraid it is true. We charge our children to be educated then invite the whole world to come to the UK illegally the worst that can happen is you get 3,500 quid and a plane ticket home.

The British government is to offer some asylum-seekers and illegal immigrants more cash to leave the country.

The offer, of up to $3,500 per person, would run until the end of June and would be available to those who claimed asylum in Britain before December 2005.

Immigration Minister Tony McNulty disclosed the package in a written statement to Members of Parliament, The Times reported last week.

"All those who leave the UK under this scheme will be offered an additional 2,000 pounds, which they can choose to take as either additional reintegration assistance or cash grants," he said.

Under Britain's current scheme those who voluntarily leave receive about $1,700 from the government to help with reintegration needs, the newspaper said.

McNulty said the new scheme would be advertised at immigration and asylum-seeker centers. Mailings would also be sent to 54,000 people by the National Asylum Support Service.

The new inducement came as the Home Office said it had failed to meet the December goal of Prime Minister Tony Blair that more asylum seekers leave the country than enter.

It is predicted at as many as 3,000 people may take advantage of the pilot scheme. Travel costs to their home countries would be paid for by the British government.

The cost of forced removals is estimated at about $19,500 per person.

A Home Office spokesman said the money would be paid in 12 monthly installments to those who left the country.

Under the current scheme, 2,783 people voluntarily left Britain in 2004-2005, the spokesman said.

[whiterabbit]

I am afraid it is true. We charge our children to be educated then invite the whole world to come to the UK illegally the worst that can happen is you get 3,500 quid and a plane ticket home.

The British government is to offer some asylum-seekers and illegal immigrants more cash to leave the country.

The offer, of up to $3,500 per person, would run until the end of June and would be available to those who claimed asylum in Britain before December 2005.

Immigration Minister Tony McNulty disclosed the package in a written statement to Members of Parliament, The Times reported last week.

"All those who leave the UK under this scheme will be offered an additional 2,000 pounds, which they can choose to take as either additional reintegration assistance or cash grants," he said.

Under Britain's current scheme those who voluntarily leave receive about $1,700 from the government to help with reintegration needs, the newspaper said.

McNulty said the new scheme would be advertised at immigration and asylum-seeker centers. Mailings would also be sent to 54,000 people by the National Asylum Support Service.

The new inducement came as the Home Office said it had failed to meet the December goal of Prime Minister Tony Blair that more asylum seekers leave the country than enter.

It is predicted at as many as 3,000 people may take advantage of the pilot scheme. Travel costs to their home countries would be paid for by the British government.

The cost of forced removals is estimated at about $19,500 per person.

A Home Office spokesman said the money would be paid in 12 monthly installments to those who left the country.

Under the current scheme, 2,783 people voluntarily left Britain in 2004-2005, the spokesman said.

The only immigrants that are worth letting in are those with skillsets needed for specifically important industries, and then they should only get a tempory visa. I don't mean IT people either who only get visas so companies can let go their own staff and cut costs and benifits (BA etc). Another thing we should stop is letting people become British citizens so easily. Once this happen a lot then bring in their whole families including brothers, sisters etc. We have become a "soft touch" to most of the 3rd world IMHO.

[laurejon]

I think we should stop all immigration...........all of it.

If we need skills then that is a reflection of the poor standards of education offered by the politicians of envy.

We should educate our own.

However we are a multicultural society whether we like it or not, so there should be no finger pointing about those already settled here. The reason I say we should stop immigration is for no reason other than we are full up to the brim.

[Justice]

I get sick of hearing about immigrants doing the jobs we don’t want. It’s rubbish and many of how own people want these jobs that immigrants are being fast track in like Police offices to name just one.

Who gave our politicians the right to open our doors just so they can screw down wages and make a fast buck from there businesses.

i say we should not only fine the MP's $3500 for each one that takes up the offer but we should put them in nick too.

[Pete95]

They pay them 3k to go home, because if they are 'told' to leave then the immigrants will simply fight the descision - and of course this is all done with legal aid, so it ends up costing over 100k of tax payers money, even when they were here illegally in the first place :angry:

Its a huge problem, but political correctness prevents the problem from being addressed. It doesnt take a genius to work out that the implications for the country are not good...

[Solvent Celt]

We need a home guard... I know lots of Patrioitic Brits that would have no problem cleaning up our country if the government would only take the kid gloves off.

[iamconfusedagain]

I am interested to hear people views on Immigration.

As you ask... I think large scale immigration on a short time span is bad news. I think that we should take our fair share of true asylum seekers who have genuine need to get the hell out of their country, but I suspect (with little evidence in honesty) that we have taken our fair share recently so should take no more.

If this is the case I think people should only be let in if they have the skills to benefit us, and primarily we should take care of our existing population. This includes anyone who has emigrated, if they leave they dont get back in unless its in our interests to let them.

As I see it there are two main problems with rapid immigration. Firstly people on the blag who just see us as a soft touch for health benefits etc. although how much of a problem this is I have no idea.

My main problem is that unlike limited or slow immigration that I would expect to lead to a gradual development of the British and integration of settlers, the rapid influx that we are seeing leads to multiculturalism which is dangerous and basically segregation of people that breeds fear suspicion and jealousy etc.

Oh that 3K thing is madness. If they are willing to leave for that kind of money they are not asylum seekers so should be put on a plane out of here, and they can appeal from their own country.

[algor]

We need a home guard... I know lots of Patrioitic Brits that would have no problem cleaning up our country if the government would only take the kid gloves off.

Go on. Admit it. You just want a chance to beat up Johnny Foreigner.

[whiterabbit]

Oh that 3K thing is madness. If they are willing to leave for that kind of money they are not asylum seekers so should be put on a plane out of here, and they can appeal from their own country.

Good point amazing how many ayslum seekers who 'face death in their country" once granted asylum proceed to go back to the country they were from on holiday! In the US if they catch them doing this then they are deported not sure we do the same?

[Solvent Celt]

Go on. Admit it. You just want a chance to beat up Johnny Foreigner.

Nope just arrest, detain, deport. If resistance is offered then reasonable force could be used. It's what most countires do.

[Justice]

If you live in the UK all your life and under pay on you national insurance contributions then this will reduce your pension but an immigrants has his contributions topped up to full on arrival.

Yes sure the left-wing parasites will tell you that fair.

[teddyboy]

I will get all my rant out in 1 go!!!

Firstly, any immigrant coming to this country MUST abide by our laws!

Crimewatch most wanted is 90% Immigrants!

They must adjust to our culture.

We cant wear an England top in OUR country because it upsets ethnics.

They provide cheap labour.

Us the taxpayer get wages dropped, or lose job altogether. They get dole and housing FOC!

They bring skills to the country.

No they bring extended family to the country and we the tax payer pay for it. Our jobs get sent out to THEM!!!

I am not racist and I know there are genuine cases but I'm sorry - they take the piss! If you can't adjust to our culture, adhere to our laws, and respect Britain then DONT COME!

Imagine me going to Saudi Arabia and saying;

"hey! take the stoopid dress off and give me a pint of lager!"

"what you dont serve alcohol?"

"Well I find that offensive, starting pulling the pint".

I would not dream of it! I'm in their country and I abide by their laws and culture!

So come on people - let me know why Immigration is good to the country and the tax-paying public!

RANT OVER!

[Magpie]

What a lot of racist drivel. Why not just join the BNP instead of polluting this forum with this stuff?

[Justice]

What a lot of racist drivel. Why not just join the BNP instead of polluting this forum with this stuff?

What a well put case by the left-wing, we love everyone and want to spend your money party

if the BNP will stop immigrants taking our job, homes, way of life, our dole money then they have a lot of suport for joe public

we are in the off topic forum you know

[iamconfusedagain]

What a lot of racist drivel. Why not just join the BNP instead of polluting this forum with this stuff?

Surely it is better to give a point of view. Racist views can easily be exposed as ignorant rubbish as there is no reason that I am aware of to base judgement on race. If you see an opinion you feel strongly about then argue your case.

However immigration that is too much and too fast is not good in my opinion. My opinions are not really set in stone, and if you can argue why open borders is a good idea I would be happy to read it.

I like being in places with diversity, but integration is key, and people can do it without losing their identity. It is pretty funny because I was speaking to an Austrian and a indian the other day who had stronger views on this than me. I see tensions forming because of seperate groups of people with few shared experiences who segregate and blame each other for their problems. I think multiculturalism (sp?) is a curse.

[Magpie]

I'm not left wing, and certainly don't vote NL. I just think that the history of looking for scapegoats such as immigrants is pretty well known, and this thread seems pretty ignorant and full of racism. There's a lot of immigration to this country and a lot of emigration - it's a long term issue, and not one with simple solutions.

Iamconfusedagain, your posts are at least thoughtful, though saying that "multiculturalism is a curse" is pretty questionable. Do you imagine there is such a thing as a single British culture?

But yes, you're right there is a real debate one could have about how best to deal with issues of immigration -and I think that there are things that our useless government could do better. They should deal with asylum appeals much more efficiently and consistently for a start. Right now there is also a lot of Eastern European immigration, which is rooted in our government's slightly bizarre enthusiasm for extending the EU indefinitely. Many of them will make a bit of money here doing crappy jobs like building cleaning etc and then go home. Others will settle and integrate eventually as has happened so many times over our history, but it is a bit of a short term influx and I can see why people notice it. This may become more pronounced if they keep extending the EU.

However when I see stuff like this...

"if the BNP will stop immigrants taking our job, homes, way of life, our dole money then they have a lot of suport for joe public" (sic)

"We need a home guard... I know lots of Patrioitic (sic) Brits that would have no problem cleaning up our country if the government would only take the kid gloves off."

"The only incentive we should give immigrants to leave is the sharp end of a bayonet if they don't"

"I think we should stop all immigration...........all of it."

...then pardon me if I hear very clear echoes of the blackshirts. There were pretty good reasons why we fought against the Nazis. This isn't an easy problem, but this kind of simplistic rubbish is not very impressive. Apart from anything else this forum has many valuable points for visitors, but when they read this kind of stuff I think it brings the rest into disrepute.

[Solvent Celt]

I'm not left wing, and certainly don't vote NL. I just think that the history of looking for scapegoats such as immigrants is pretty well known, and this thread seems pretty ignorant and full of racism. There's a lot of immigration to this country and a lot of emigration - it's a long term issue, and not one with simple solutions.

Iamconfusedagain, your posts are at least thoughtful, though saying that "multiculturalism is a curse" is pretty questionable. Do you imagine there is such a thing as a single British culture?

But yes, you're right there is a real debate one could have about how best to deal with issues of immigration -and I think that there are things that our useless government could do better. They should deal with asylum appeals much more efficiently and consistently for a start. Right now there is also a lot of Eastern European immigration, which is rooted in our government's slightly bizarre enthusiasm for extending the EU indefinitely. Many of them will make a bit of money here doing crappy jobs like building cleaning etc and then go home. Others will settle and integrate eventually as has happened so many times over our history, but it is a bit of a short term influx and I can see why people notice it. This may become more pronounced if they keep extending the EU.

However when I see stuff like this...

"if the BNP will stop immigrants taking our job, homes, way of life, our dole money then they have a lot of suport for joe public" (sic)

"We need a home guard... I know lots of Patrioitic (sic) Brits that would have no problem cleaning up our country if the government would only take the kid gloves off."

"The only incentive we should give immigrants to leave is the sharp end of a bayonet if they don't"

"I think we should stop all immigration...........all of it."

...then pardon me if I hear very clear echoes of the blackshirts. There were pretty good reasons why we fought against the Nazis. This isn't an easy problem, but this kind of simplistic rubbish is not very impressive. Apart from anything else this forum has many valuable points for visitors, but when they read this kind of stuff I think it brings the rest into disrepute.

I don't think Mosley has anything to do with the current general feeling that our immigration system is a complete shambles. The squeeky voiced one didn't believe in democracy - most nationalists do.

I think we have a fairly wide range of views here which probably reflects the wider public. Those of us with un-PC view aren't going to just shut up because some find our views unpaletable.

One of the main reasons we fought the Nazis was to stop our Islands being invaded. Many of the old soldiers I have spoken to feel bitterly betrayed by what has happened to this country vis-a-vis immigration.

[iamconfusedagain]

though saying that "multiculturalism is a curse" is pretty questionable. Do you imagine there is such a thing as a single British culture?

No I think multiculturalism is one of those things I can not put my finger on it but it seems like groups of people get so hung upon their differences, it has come to mean 'seperate culturism' if you like. And I think seperate groups especially in close proximity brings out the worst in human nature. When times are a bit rough one group will blame another group. People blame their ills on the other group and can justify doing all sorts of stuff.

The problem is that their are genuine concerns with rapid immigration, and it is dificult even for informed people to seperate the truth from the spin. This leaves a lot of scope for manipulation by people with adgendas (racial hatred groups) of the populus who are always looking for someone to blame.

Sorry I waffle when stoned

[Magpie]

I don't think Mosley has anything to do with the current general feeling that our immigration system is a complete shambles. The squeeky voiced one didn't believe in democracy - most nationalists do.

I think we have a fairly wide range of views here which probably reflects the wider public. Those of us with un-PC view aren't going to just shut up because some find our views unpaletable.

One of the main reasons we fought the Nazis was to stop our Islands being invaded. Many of the old soldiers I have spoken to feel bitterly betrayed by what has happened to this country vis-a-vis immigration.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by nationalists in that statement, but I don't really see the relevance. I'd say that what Mosley shared with the BNP and the Nazis was to turn the outsiders of society into a scapegoat for all of society's problems, and to appeal to the "decent working people of the country" (I put that in quotes as it's a cliche not because I don't think they exist) to fight against a supposed debasement of their culture. They all sought to take advantage of genuine (but exaggerated) social problems to rally support for their cause. Thats the echo I'm objecting to. I'm not asking anyone to censor it, but I would suggest you listen to what you sound like.

Agreed, the immigration system is in a bit of a shambles, but mass immigration to this country is not the root of all evil, any more than it was in the 1930s, and I find it offensive when people try to harness people's real grievances about housing, economy etc to this cause. You're right about the reasons for fighting the Nazis in so far as it was partly a simple defence of the shores, but certainly for my dad, who fought in Normandy and helped clear up after Belsen, the reason that such a savage war was in the end a justified one was the idea that the Nazis had to be stopped. Remember that we could probably have made peace with Germany even at quite a late stage if that had seemed like a reasonable option - Hitler certainly expected that that was the path we would take. Part of my personal nationalism is a pride that we did not allow Europe to entirely succumb to fascism.

We've mostly been a country that adapted well to successive waves of immigration without losing a national identity - it is always a challenge, and as I said there is a real debate here - but maybe some of you should read a bit more history before you write the kinds of things I've been reading here.

PS Sorry if I'm sounding a bit sanctimonious tonight but I do feel strongly about this stuff.

[Justice]

Agreed, the immigration system is in a bit of a shambles, but mass immigration to this country is not the root of all evil, any more than it was in the 1930s

true but mass immigration to this country is the root of a lot of trouble.

was we gettting 300,000 immigrants pa back in the 1930's and them that did come fitted in and could not get a free lunch from the DHSS.

Brits are already a minority in places like London, Leeds, Leicester and thats just the L's

[Magpie]

true but mass immigration to this country is the root of a lot of trouble.

was we gettting 300,000 immigrants pa back in the 1930's and them that did come fitted in and could not get a free lunch from the DHSS.

Brits are already a minority in places like London, Leeds, Leicester and thats just the L's

300,000? I think net immigration has been around 150,000 over the last few years and last year it was at the higher level of about 225,000,though i may be wrong. Still quite a lot though, so there are real issues as to how to deal with or limit it. Personally I think the issue of expanding the EU is the most serious problem at the minute as it has been dealt with badly and has led to some pretty uncontrolled population growth, though a lot of that may be transitory. On another level there are obvious problems with the integration of the Islamic community in a period when Islamic fascism has become such a serious problem - I don't think there's a magic solution to that, but demonisation is more likely to polarise hatred than improve matters. The motivated bomber "will always get through" to paraphrase Bomber Harris.

Not sure what you mean by Brits - who counts? Irish, Flemish and Poles, Georgians? Black people who were born here? - for me London has a pretty high proportion of people I would count as British whatever their ethnicity, although there are plenty I would identify as foreign as well - it's a pretty subjective division though. The national identity of British has changed so much over the years and the minorities reviled at the time often become integrated in the end. I mention the Flemish because i seem to remember that during the Peasants Revolt the revolters were very het up about the Flems taking "our jobs" and rioted against them. The idea that old-fashioned minorities knew their place and fitted in is a bit risible really. By the 1930s the fascists were banging on about the Jews and the Irish and catholics (although Mosley tried to appeal to the Irish and include them in his definition of white working class contrary to the anti-Irish instincts of many of his followers).

To move the discussion in a different direction I was interested to see that UK population growth (including natural growth) since 1950 has been 20% (50 million to 60million). Meanwhile world pop growth has been about 150% (2.5bn to 6.25bn). I actually found the world figures more alarming than the UK's when I looked them up...

[Justice]

300,000? I think net immigration has been around 150,000 over the last few years

Yes indeed the official government figure is around 150k but this does not agree with migration watch UK or what I can see with my own eyes. Strange that every other crime committed by non-whites are often arrested for the offence but held on immigration grounds so I guess we have one hell of a lot of illegal immigrants that don’t go towards the official figures.

Brits do not talk like “Yar man me axe ya” or walk around covering there faces whilst trying to convert everyone to their religion and crying racist every other day just so they can get more special treatment from government at the expense of the locals

[Solvent Celt]

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by nationalists in that statement, but I don't really see the relevance. I'd say that what Mosley shared with the BNP and the Nazis was to turn the outsiders of society into a scapegoat for all of society's problems, and to appeal to the "decent working people of the country" (I put that in quotes as it's a cliche not because I don't think they exist) to fight against a supposed debasement of their culture. They all sought to take advantage of genuine (but exaggerated) social problems to rally support for their cause. Thats the echo I'm objecting to. I'm not asking anyone to censor it, but I would suggest you listen to what you sound like.

Agreed, the immigration system is in a bit of a shambles, but mass immigration to this country is not the root of all evil, any more than it was in the 1930s, and I find it offensive when people try to harness people's real grievances about housing, economy etc to this cause. You're right about the reasons for fighting the Nazis in so far as it was partly a simple defence of the shores, but certainly for my dad, who fought in Normandy and helped clear up after Belsen, the reason that such a savage war was in the end a justified one was the idea that the Nazis had to be stopped. Remember that we could probably have made peace with Germany even at quite a late stage if that had seemed like a reasonable option - Hitler certainly expected that that was the path we would take. Part of my personal nationalism is a pride that we did not allow Europe to entirely succumb to fascism.

We've mostly been a country that adapted well to successive waves of immigration without losing a national identity - it is always a challenge, and as I said there is a real debate here - but maybe some of you should read a bit more history before you write the kinds of things I've been reading here.

PS Sorry if I'm sounding a bit sanctimonious tonight but I do feel strongly about this stuff.

Although the term “nationalism” has a variety of meanings, it centrally encompasses the two phenomena noted at the outset: (1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their identity as members of that nation and (2) the actions that the members of a nation take in seeking to achieve (or sustain) some form of political sovereignty. (See for example, Nielsen 1998-99: 9.) Each of these aspects requires elaboration. (1) raises questions about the concept of nation or national identity, about what it is to belong to a nation and about how much one ought to care about one's nation. Nations and national identity may be defined in terms of common origin, ethnicity, or cultural ties, and while an individual's membership in the nation is often regarded as involuntary, it is sometimes regarded as voluntary. The degree of care for one's nation that is required by nationalists is often, but not always, taken to be very high: according to such views, the claims of one's nation take precedence over rival contenders for authority and loyalty (see Berlin 1979, Smith 1991, Levy 2000, and the discussion in Gans 2003).

(2) raises questions about whether sovereignty entails the acquisition of full statehood with complete authority for domestic and international affairs, or whether something less than statehood would suffice. Although sovereignty is often taken to mean full statehood (Gellner 1983, ch. 1), more recently possible exceptions have been recognized (Miller 1992: 87, and Miller 2000).

I would add that the kind of nationalists I am refering to are seeking to achieve national self determination by exclusively democratic means.

Fascism is implicitly anti democratic. It is possible to be a liberal in the traditional senses of the word (free internal market, minimal governmental interference save that necessary to protect the nation etc) and a nationalist. It is ignorance to suggest Fascism and Nationalism are the same.

Your reference to the 1930's is completelty bogus migration into this country was of a much lowers order and at a time of great turbulence in countries close to our borders.

No Europe sucumbed to Communism instead and Poland (the defence of which was our initial casus belli) was conquered by an even more savage ideological enemy.

Adapted well? Are you having a laugh? I'd suggest you walk alone through some of our ethnically enriched areas and see how well adapted you feel then.

BTW you're entitled to your strong view but people of an opposing view can feel just as strongly.