apom Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Where does the money come from? by that I mean the profit in property. (rise in value profit, not rental) It comes from the person who buys the property from you. it makes no money in itself. so all of the profit anyone has made from any property was provided by the current owner. see a problem with this? Okay, guy I know has had peer pressure to turn him into a bull, but a knowledgable-ish one... I heard him discuss about renting oout his current property and buying another with his missus.. The existing is on an interest only mortgage and is many times his salary.. between 7 and 9 times his salary.. the new property was only going to be interest only.. we were taliking about what he was going to buy.. new builds... talked about a rubbish new development near the prison in exeter.. I mentioned that I had heard that one of the blocks had been bought by someone looking into investing into sipps. essentially breaking the block up and selling shares of each flat into individuals pensions.. Sipps into property for everyone.. I pointed out that this investor must be feeling that... He asked me why? he had spent Christmas in thailand with family.. I explained sipps.. He turned to me and said.. that was it, the markets bug*ered.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geneer Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 interest only mortgage. 7 to 9 time salary. Not that savvy then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apom Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 interest only mortgage. 7 to 9 time salary. Not that savvy then! No, but have you heard the boomer generation.. this guy is late twenties.. but her would have been a teenager the last time it crashed.. Chances are more interested in cider and girls.. the boomer bulls.. they sneer at suggestions that the market could ever dipp.. I have been lectured that I should buy.. that I need to own my own place.. that an interest only mortgage close to this guys would be good.. the boomers.. they like their equity.. and they are quite frankly dumb people.. dumb..? the mewers, the people who have made the most percieved money from property have done so with no understanding of markets or debt, they have no understanding of inflation, speculation.. or the simple "can't afford it arguments.." these are the advocates, the ones shouting the market up.. persuading the young to buy.. eventually they will run out of those who can either afford to or see it as a good idea.. I think they have run out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaccount99 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 ...and so it is. How long does it take sheep to awake? Trouble is a whole load of them are still following the Judas Goats (Kirstie, Phil and Amanda Lamb) into that cutsie white building at the end of the field with those nice people with white aprons. Sorry couldn't find a sheep, will a cow do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual Observer Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 No, but have you heard the boomer generation.. this guy is late twenties.. but her would have been a teenager the last time it crashed.. Chances are more interested in cider and girls.. the boomer bulls.. they sneer at suggestions that the market could ever dipp.. I have been lectured that I should buy.. that I need to own my own place.. that an interest only mortgage close to this guys would be good.. the boomers.. they like their equity.. and they are quite frankly dumb people.. dumb..? the mewers, the people who have made the most percieved money from property have done so with no understanding of markets or debt, they have no understanding of inflation, speculation.. or the simple "can't afford it arguments.." these are the advocates, the ones shouting the market up.. persuading the young to buy.. eventually they will run out of those who can either afford to or see it as a good idea.. I think they have run out. That's a bit of a one-sided view. I'm a boomer-bear and I know plenty 20 something nephews and friends of my children who think prices will only ever go up. Problems with the market are mostly caused by your generation paying inflated prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apom Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 That's a bit of a one-sided view. I'm a boomer-bear and I know plenty 20 something nephews and friends of my children who think prices will only ever go up. Problems with the market are mostly caused by your generation paying inflated prices. your right.. generalisations do not help.. We look at the media with scorn the recent admissions by the BBC that they put more weight into VI opinions in this market then the independents.. Imagine believing them... christ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual Observer Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 your right.. generalisations do not help.. We look at the media with scorn the recent admissions by the BBC that they put more weight into VI opinions in this market then the independents.. Imagine believing them... christ Especially generalisations like this: the boomers.. they like their equity.. and they are quite frankly dumb people.. You've just written off several million people as dumb! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaccount99 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 the boomer bulls.. they sneer at suggestions that the market could ever dipp.. I have been lectured that I should buy.. that I need to own my own place.. that an interest only mortgage close to this guys would be good.. the boomers.. they like their equity.. and they are quite frankly dumb people.. dumb..? Who exactly are these boomers that you are attributing with all the evils of the state on? I think the spread of dumbness is pretty much even distributed accross the age population. I'm intrigued, i'm neither a "boomer" nor a "twentys" where exactly does that bondry exist where if you birthday falls on day x you are a boomer but 1 day later and you aren't? During 30's Germany (and indeed Europe) huge numbers of people where put in these pigeon hole classifications, blamed for all evils and sent to their fate.....That may have been an era you felt at home in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apom Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 (edited) Who exactly are these boomers that you are attributing with all the evils of the state on? I think the spread of dumbness is pretty much even distributed accross the age population. I'm intrigued, i'm neither a "boomer" nor a "twentys" where exactly does that bondry exist where if you birthday falls on day x you are a boomer but 1 day later and you aren't? During 30's Germany (and indeed Europe) huge numbers of people where put in these pigeon hole classifications, blamed for all evils and sent to their fate.....That may have been an era you felt at home in? If you read my thread I did not say all boomers sunshine.. I suggested those dumb enough to think their equity in their primary residence made them rich.. You may have missed my point.. and I believe you are comparing me to a nazi? bless you.. has to be a wind up.. read the post all of it.. can I call you a tedious and simple little man? the boomer bulls.. I believe I said.. Edited January 7, 2006 by apom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual Observer Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 (edited) Who exactly are these boomers that you are attributing with all the evils of the state on? I think the spread of dumbness is pretty much even distributed accross the age population. I'm intrigued, i'm neither a "boomer" nor a "twentys" where exactly does that bondry exist where if you birthday falls on day x you are a boomer but 1 day later and you aren't? During 30's Germany (and indeed Europe) huge numbers of people where put in these pigeon hole classifications, blamed for all evils and sent to their fate.....That may have been an era you felt at home in? Spot on. I've noticed a hell of a lot of this kind of thing on the forum (not picking out APOM here, there are plenty others too). It;s as if it's easy to live with the problem, if you can identify a discrete group and lay the blame on them - call them names, pray for their come-uppance, even wish them dead on one post I remember in the early days of this forum. You are right to suggest that this has parallels with the way the Nazis used propaganda against the Jews. I wasn't kidding when I spoke about 20 somethings - a hell of a lot of them that I know think they will become rich through property and retire at 30.(Cue someone blaming boomers for bringing them up wrongly) Edited January 7, 2006 by Casual Observer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apom Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 (edited) Neat solution....? Sheep never wake. They are just slaughtered and eaten? = = Some of you here would like to have an Upside-down yellow house sown onto the jacket of every landlord over 40, so you can spot and abuse a Boomer-who-benefitted from house price inflation. Thank Gawd, that will not work in this country the phrase was "boomer bulls.." I was identifing a discrete group by age group and opinion that they hold to the points relevent to the discussion. Please read my topic fully. I then went on to identify that the age "boomer" was relevent as they are peers.. "bulls" as in opinion. boomer Bears? boomer not interested either way. I would appreciate the courtesy of people actually reading the topic.. perhaps again.. someone actually compared me to the nazi's... his level of understanding of the written word did indicate some book burning went on it hat household That's a bit of a one-sided view. I'm a boomer-bear and I know plenty 20 something nephews and friends of my children who think prices will only ever go up. Problems with the market are mostly caused by your generation paying inflated prices. the boomer bulls.. they sneer at suggestions that the market could ever dipp.. I have been lectured that I should buy.. that I need to own my own place.. to quote me. read my topic.. yawn Spot on. I've noticed a hell of a lot of this kind of thing on the forum (not picking out APOM here, there are plenty others too). It;s as if it's easy to live with the problem, if you can identify a discrete group and lay the blame on them - call them names, pray for their come-uppance, even wish them dead on one post I remember in the early days of this forum. You are right to suggest that this has parallels with the way the Nazis used propaganda against the Jews. I wasn't kidding when I spoke about 20 somethings - a hell of a lot of them that I know think they will become rich through property and retire at 30.(Cue someone blaming boomers for bringing them up wrongly) read my topic again. you are comparing me to the nazi's when I clearly wrote.. "the boomer bulls.. they sneer at suggestions that the market could ever dipp.. I have been lectured that I should buy.. that I need to own my own place.." If you knew anything of my family history you would know that comparing me to the nazi's because you can't read would be best avoided. I would like to meet you face to face, could we arange this. Learn to read If I had said boomers, you would be right I said boomer bulls. Edited January 7, 2006 by apom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaedrus Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Who exactly are these boomers that you are attributing with all the evils of the state on? I think the spread of dumbness is pretty much even distributed accross the age population. I'm intrigued, i'm neither a "boomer" nor a "twentys" where exactly does that bondry exist where if you birthday falls on day x you are a boomer but 1 day later and you aren't? During 30's Germany (and indeed Europe) huge numbers of people where put in these pigeon hole classifications, blamed for all evils and sent to their fate.....That may have been an era you felt at home in? I believe 'Godwin's Law' should have been invoked at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaccount99 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 If you read my thread I did not say all boomers sunshine.. I suggested those dumb enough to think their equity in their primary residence made them rich.. You may have missed my point.. and I believe you are comparing me to a nazi? bless you.. has to be a wind up.. read the post all of it.. can I call you a tedious and simple little man? the boomer bulls.. I believe I said.. au contraire I think that a bit of self analysis may be in order here. I never said you were a Nazi...I was comparing your use of generalisations about large parts of the population to pin your hang-ups on. So how is it the boomer-bulls fault and not the twenties-bulls fault then? i.e. You use of the term "Boomer" is irrelevent I believe 'Godwin's Law' should have been invoked at this point. Errrrrr....well okay, yes you are probably right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apom Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 au contraire I think that a bit of self analysis may be in order here. I never said you were a Nazi...I was comparing your use of generalisations about large parts of the population to pin your hang-ups on. So how is it the boomer-bulls fault and not the twenties-bulls fault then? i.e. You use of the term "Boomer" is irrelevent no simple man.. I was suggested that their age lead weight to their opinion.. I respect my elders by default, but they are capable of loosing my respect.. you sound older then me..? are you.. I may rant, my point may not be clear all the time.. this one was. I am not living my life crying into my pillow and complaining on ho9w unfair it is.. I am aware of the world. I did not buy myself because I remember the bust last time.. and because I spent a long time talking to a boomer-bear.. Yes. Why "boomer bulls", and not just property bulls? There are mad bulls of all ages Oh look.. I made a mistake.. I can't admit to it... bo hoo.. boo hoo... read again.. appologise.. gosh.. I am cross.. lol.. leaving the topic to you lot.. see if someone else has anything to say.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaccount99 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 no simple man.. I was suggested that their age lead weight to their opinion.. I respect my elders by default, but they are capable of loosing my respect.. you sound older then me..? are you.. With your glib generalisations and attempt at insults, you give the illusion of anything but respect. However you are right and I would gladly accept your adage of "simple" over "sophisticated" or "complex". I certainly am not seeking any of your "respect" based on age.....Also I think the saying "respect your elders" meant something other than take what they say as gospel and the truth. Yep a good thread turned bad....and I'll accpet my part in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual Observer Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 I would like to meet you face to face, could we arange this. Is that supposed to be a euphemism for a fight?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaccount99 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Respect: an attitude of admiration or esteem a courteous expression of esteem a feeling of friendship and esteem the condition of being honored believe: accept as true credit with veracity follow a credo; have a faith; be a believer be confident about something I.e. "respect your elders" (though only whilst they deserve it).....not......"believe your elders".....as they are likely to be no more less dumb than yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual Observer Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Yes. Why "boomer bulls", and not just property bulls? There are mad bulls of all ages Hallelujah. Absiolutely spot on, and as soon as everyone understands that point, the better the standard of debate will be on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apom Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 (edited) Hallelujah. Absiolutely spot on, and as soon as everyone understands that point, the better the standard of debate will be on this forum. but my point was that this was an older gneration bull giving their opinion to a younger generation. all bulls.. I am fully aware that there are people of all different ages with all different opinions.. what I resent is that some on here have leaped to the glorious self conglaturatory aren't we wonderful stand. and accusing me of being a nazi.... are any on here aware of what the nazi's did...?? Really aware.. not just having watched the hollywood movies.. actually sat down and talked with people who saw the full horrors.. you know not what you say.. and you know who you are.... my god.. guess his name... Edited January 7, 2006 by apom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaccount99 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 but my point was that this was an older gneration bull giving their opinion to a younger generation. all bulls.. I am fully aware that there are people of all different ages with all different opinions.. what I resent is that some on here have leaped to the glorious self conglaturatory aren't we wonderful stand. and accusing me of being a nazi.... are any on here aware of what the nazi's did...?? Really aware.. not just having watched the hollywood movies.. actually sat down and talked with people who saw the full horrors.. you know not what you say.. and you know who you are.... my god.. guess his name... APOM, quiet clearly you've never heard of the term WIN-WIN negotiation and your route through life is a path of bitter arguments. I met you halfway by agreeing that my post may be subject to Godwins Law and hence I by de-fault loose the argument. You just can't let things go can you....you're just never wrong....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apom Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 Last reply. I was misunderstood I think and I took a huge umbridge to be likened to the nazi's I will not come to this post again.. Will I react in the same way if I am again likened to the Nazi's? I can't help it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual Observer Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 what I resent is that some on here have leaped to the glorious self conglaturatory aren't we wonderful stand. and accusing me of being a nazi.... are any on here aware of what the nazi's did...?? Too melodramatic APOM. No-one accused you of being a Nazi - the point made was that looking for scapegoats to blame for society's ills had parallels with the way the Nazis rose to power. You've tried to make yourself look the aggrieved one, because you regret what you first wrote about boomers. Your first apology was sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaccount99 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 but my point was that this was an older gneration bull giving their opinion to a younger generation. all bulls.. Well my four year old niece is adament that she saw Santa come down the chimney the other week and my demented grandmother endlessly adivses me to get into war bonds. Endless opinions expressed between generations..........what do you suggest I do with them? Must say took until my thirties to realise that the best way to handle was: nod, smile and say "yes really" Shirley/Gran. Love them to bits though, and still hold them in the highest esteem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munro Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 OK, generalisations...yes, the chart shows housing has been very expensive relative to incomes at periods in the recent past - early 70s, late 80s, round about now. So depending on when you want to talk about there are similar experiences across generations. Not to forget credit criteria and taxation levels (Schedule A, I think it was, then MIRAS, etc). But it does generally seem to be the case that people in their 50s and 60s are more bullish about property. Certainly my mother and her contemporaries (mid 60s) are very bullish, although she is now accepting that renting is the rational approach in the current market. Underlying this is, though, long experience in which those of bullish tendencies have been proven right. She had an uncle who was a perma-bear and never bought the flat he rented, which had damp problems and a landlord who wouldn't fix it - because he couldn't get rid of his tenants! But his experiences were of the 20s and 30s and he couldn't get his head round the idea that buying housing was ever a sensible thing to do. Similarly my mother and her contemporaries have done so well out of housing that at an emotional level they have a profoundly ingrained belief that buying housing is the right thing to do. Rationally she accepts that renting makes sense now, but deep down she believes in property ownership, and she's done very very well out of it. At a rough estimate my mother's net worth, in retirement, is more than she and my father earned during their entire lifetimes; and the vast majority of that is because they worked the property ladder as hard as they possibly could in the 60s and the late 70s. By a combination of luck and good timing they more or less traded up on the dips and bought in an area that has seen massive increases (in the south-east). By contrast my formative experiences were of watching the news in the early 80s - strikes, recessions, riots, factory closures, mass unemployment. I was just getting on my feet when the next recession came along in 1990. My only relationship was with someone who'd been burnt by negative equity - took ten years to get out of that one and rashly I helped renovate the house for sale and got burnt because my name wasn't on the mortgage. After years studying I'm now in a position where I'd be interested in buying somewhere to live - as if. The cheapest, nastiest dodgy sh*t hole round here is about four times my annual income, and if I did buy I'd be stuck there because nobody will be coming along after me to buy it. I know people round here who bought similar places in the late 80s and got horribly burnt in the 90s - their places dropped in value as FTBs leapfrogged to two bed places and it took many of them ten years to get out of being underwater. Hence my experiences have made me profoundly bearish. But I now find people in their 20s who are profoundly bullish because of their experiences - all their adult lifetime has been one long bull market during which the economy has gone up and up (say 1995 to date). They've been led to believe that houses will go up for ever and they've seen the bears proven wrong over and over in the last few years. So surprise surprise, they're bulls too, and they will stretch to buy that poky one-bedder on an IO at 7-9 times their income. Because emotionally this is what's been ingrained into them. There isn't much point in saying it's their fault for paying high prices, it isn't a choice. If you don't pay you don't get, and maybe you'll be priced out forever. Of course we know this is absurd but they don't have the experience. This is the one point that I agree with Dogbox on, that peoples' psychology and emotions round the housing market is irrational. But tell people often enough it's different this time and they'll believe you, particularly if they aren't old enough to remember things being different. Generalisations are still helpful but as the starting point of an argument...and whatever else he might or might not have said, apom's generalisation that boomers tend to be bullish about property does seem to be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaccount99 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 and whatever else he might or might not have said, apom's generalisation that boomers tend to be bullish about property does seem to be right. As a generalisation I certainly wouldn't take exception to that statement.....there is a simple reason why this is the case: People remeber what they paid for a house for years and years and years, it is such a major thing in their life that it sticks there......They don't remember how much that loaf of bread has crept up over the years, it's irrelevent. They may remember other major purchases too such as cars, holidays and big ticket electrical goods all of which have dropped in cost in real-terms and in many cases nominal too. It's not a huge conjecture to make that people with a few more years under the belt are potentially more likely to be deluded that prices of houses (always) go up. People of all ages love to share their opinions, experiences and "advice". Guess what sort of advice is being fed out from the above. Whose the dumb one for implementing based on someone elses "advice" when all turns to $hit? I think all that happened was some people fancied challenging the following statement: the boomers.. they like their equity.. and they are quite frankly dumb people.. which in the scheme of things was hardly crime of the century....but was just a reaction to a whole load of other "Boomer" type posts over the last few weeks/months. Before we knew it high horses where jumped on and higher grounds were fled to (self included). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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