The Legacy Of Feminism

[izzy]

So here we are, a generation brought up on feminism. What, in your opinion, have been the effects of feminism on relationships between the sexes.

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

So here we are, a generation brought up on feminism. What, in your opinion, have been the effects of feminism on relationships between the sexes.

I would say this, oh yes and congratulations on your unborn baby!

I could go on but whats the point, all men as bar stewards!

[Starcrossed]

That question probably has as many answers as there are people alive.

I remember Kat, the singer with the punky band 'Babes In Toyland' growing up in a liberal school system and being led to believe that men and women were equal. Then when she went into the big, wide world and discovering the reality did not match the theory. So she got angry and formed a band.

That was one woman's experience.

I have always felt that feminism is as much a matter for men as women. It is futile for women to change if men don't. It makes all the theory in the world castles in the air.

One thing that has made it difficult for women is that they in general have not achieved solidarity amongst themselves in the same way men are often able to do. Hence, they are often more critical of each other than men. This may be because they feel they understand the other woman and her motivations and are unwilling to excuse their honest perception of the failings in the other woman just because she is the same sex.

Men on the other hand often have a solidairity between themselves that is bigger than their individuality. This makes it difficult for women to 'break in' to their mindset.

Lots of men see women as entirely 'other' and this is a recipe for continual problems. Unless the man is prepared to try and understand a woman how will a satisfying relationship develop?

As to what difference feminism had made to this situation...I would say that feminism has been more successful at a structural level than a personal level. Women have a lot more freedom to develop their lives now as they see fit. However, there is much incomprehension between the sexes and that has not changed. Laws don't change that. Laws also do not change the fact we live in a consumer society and both men and women often see relationships as being something that they can buy or go and get a refund at the slightest trouble.

And then there is the vast (and probably under-reported) number of rapes and sexual attacks that occur. That is not a sign of a society that has been 'enlightened' by feminism.

Izzy, you have been brave to use the 'f' word on HPC...

...many people on here seem to accept uncritically that feminism is all about dungarees and oppressing men. That's ironic given that HPC at it's best is about challenging accepted thinking. Lazy labels are a sign of lazy thinking.

I'd better stop before I turn into a sociology professor.

[Carabansity]

I would agree with you Starcrossed that women don't stand up together therefore are broken down individually.

My wife works in a male orientated high profile company with a larger than life owner you will have heard of. He is a sexist, mysoginist (sic) old git. He had an older lady sacked as although she had worked diligently in a customer service role for nearly 20 years she was over 50 and not well endowed. My wife told me that he had said, "get someone young in with big t*ts". She had repeated it to me in a 'isn't this funny' kind of way. There was no support in their office for this woman, they had all heard it said so it was hardly kept from them. Another employee has just won a tribunal against her firm for sexual discrimation so there is some justice!

[IPOD]

Lots of men see women as entirely 'other'

And vice versa.

Unless the man is prepared to try and understand a woman how will a satisfying relationship develop?

Ditto. The woman has to make the effort as well, you have to meet each other halfway. A succesful relationship is not a one-way street.

And then there is the vast (and probably under-reported) number of rapes and sexual attacks that occur. That is not a sign of a society that has been 'enlightened' by feminism.

About 12,000 women reported to the police that they had been raped in 2004/5. Against a female population of around 30 million, this means that the chance of the average woman being raped is 1 in 2,500. While clearly every single one of these rapes is reprehensible and unacceptable, we should not terrify women by grossly exaggerating the risks of being raped but rather encourage the adoption of sensible precautions (having your mobile phone with you at all times, carrying a rape alarm, don't walk on your own in unlit areas, etc). Whether or not this official number is under-reported, no-one can say, as by their very nature unreported rapes do not appear in any official records. There is a certain strand of hysterical so-called feminism which maintains that women are being beaten, abused, assaulted, raped, murdered, etc every second of the day by ALL men, and portrays ALL men as violent psychopaths hellbent on aggression; Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon typify this mindset.

I'd better stop before I turn into a sociology professor.

I doubt you would make it to tenure.

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

And vice versa.

Ditto. The woman has to make the effort as well, you have to meet each other halfway. A succesful relationship is not a one-way street.

About 12,000 women reported to the police that they had been raped in 2004/5. Against a female population of around 30 million, this means that the chance of the average woman being raped is 1 in 2,500. While clearly every single one of these rapes is reprehensible and unacceptable, we should not terrify women by grossly exaggerating the risks of being raped but rather encourage the adoption of sensible precautions (having your mobile phone with you at all times, carrying a rape alarm, don't walk on your own in unlit areas, etc). Whether or not this official number is under-reported, no-one can say, as by their very nature unreported rapes do not appear in any official records. There is a certain strand of hysterical so-called feminism which maintains that women are being beaten, abused, assaulted, raped, murdered, etc every second of the day by ALL men, and portrays ALL men as violent psychopaths hellbent on aggression; Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon typify this mindset.

I doubt you would make it to tenure.

Still waiting for a feminist answer to this. I live in hope!

[Starcrossed]

I doubt you would make it to tenure.

Thank goodness for that.

You seem to think I am biased against men. However I agree that relationships are very much a two-way street. Every relationship is different and it is wrong to stereotype every relationship as being one in which the man is lacking in personal skills while the woman has got it all worked out. That would not be true.

And I also agree that hysteria and fear is not an appropriate response to the possibility of sexual assault. Fear is no way to live a life.

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

Thank goodness for that.

You seem to think I am biased against men. However I agree that relationships are very much a two-way street. Every relationship is different and it is wrong to stereotype every relationship as being one in which the man is lacking in personal skills while the woman has got it all worked out. That would not be true.

And I also agree that hysteria and fear is not an appropriate response to the possibility of sexual assault. Fear is no way to live a life.

Sorry Starcrossed but I dont believe you. From reading all your posts I feel a secret or tainted agenda. Not sure what it is yet but to me in my own honest opinion I do not believe that you believe in everything you post. Prove me wrong.

[Starcrossed]

Sorry Starcrossed but I dont believe you. From reading all your posts I feel a secret or tainted agenda. Not sure what it is yet but to me in my own honest opinion I do not believe that you believe in everything you post. Prove me wrong.

If anything, shaker, I get caught trying to be reasonable.

Rather than getting into some kind of online argument I try and find common ground - which probably looks a bit clumsy at times.

Secret agenda? No, but I'm intrigued by the idea...

However, one thing is true - I generally see things from the woman's point of view.

Is that a satisfactory explanation?

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

If anything, shaker, I get caught trying to be reasonable.

Rather than getting into some kind of online argument I try and find common ground - which probably looks a bit clumsy at times.

Secret agenda? No, but I'm intrigued by the idea...

However, one thing is true - I generally see things from the woman's point of view.

Is that a satisfactory explanation?

Why do you feel you have to provide an explanation? I certainly didnt mean that I was asking for one, especially not a satisfatory one. Its more I find your postings... !?! In fact I cannot even find the words out of my extremely limited vocabulary to answer that adequately. However I sense something I cannot put my finger one.

[IPOD]

However, one thing is true - I generally see things from the woman's point of view.

Is there such a thing as THE woman's point of view? Surely there are a multiplicity of views that individual women hold, as indeed people in general have a myriad array of views covering the spectrum of all views that can possibly be held. I think you THINK you are "fighting women's corner" on here and in other such discussions with some kind of chivalrous intent, but the problem with trying to represent someone else's views for them is that you always run the risk of misrepresenting them, and I would argue that your evocation of a monolithic, indivisible female viewpoint simply doesn't exist in the real world. You would be better off letting women speak for themselves.

[Starcrossed]

Why do you feel you have to provide an explanation? I certainly didnt mean that I was asking for one, especially not a satisfatory one. Its more I find your postings... !?! In fact I cannot even find the words out of my extremely limited vocabulary to answer that adequately. However I sense something I cannot put my finger one.

Let me know if you work it out because I'm dead worried now.

Is there such a thing as THE woman's point of view? Surely there are a multiplicity of views that individual women hold, as indeed people in general have a myriad array of views covering the spectrum of all views that can possibly be held. I think you THINK you are "fighting women's corner" on here and in other such discussions with some kind of chivalrous intent, but the problem with trying to represent someone else's views for them is that you always run the risk of misrepresenting them, and I would argue that your evocation of a monolithic, indivisible female viewpoint simply doesn't exist in the real world. You would be better off letting women speak for themselves.

I don't intend to speak for women at all. I have a legitimate point of view of my own. I phrased that sentence badly, though.

However, I may give this subject a break for a while...

[theChuz]

And vice versa.

Ditto. The woman has to make the effort as well, you have to meet each other halfway. A succesful relationship is not a one-way street.

About 12,000 women reported to the police that they had been raped in 2004/5. Against a female population of around 30 million, this means that the chance of the average woman being raped is 1 in 2,500. While clearly every single one of these rapes is reprehensible and unacceptable, we should not terrify women by grossly exaggerating the risks of being raped but rather encourage the adoption of sensible precautions (having your mobile phone with you at all times, carrying a rape alarm, don't walk on your own in unlit areas, etc). Whether or not this official number is under-reported, no-one can say, as by their very nature unreported rapes do not appear in any official records. There is a certain strand of hysterical so-called feminism which maintains that women are being beaten, abused, assaulted, raped, murdered, etc every second of the day by ALL men, and portrays ALL men as violent psychopaths hellbent on aggression; Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon typify this mindset.

I doubt you would make it to tenure.

Just the other day there was a case of a a woman who got drunk and was walked home by a doorman they had sex at the end of it. A few days later she started having 'flashbacks' (its always flashbacks, flashbacks mean bad), she reached the conclusion she was raped. Her case was that she was in no fit sense to concent - when the judge asked her if she concented she said she couldnt remember, the judge ended up throwing it out.

Next time he should get a signature of concent, maybe record a conversation "do you want to have sex with me?" oh wait no , because we are supposed to know that women can be fickle *wanting* to have sex and giving concent are two differnt things, "do you concent to having sex with me" of course you will need to specify a time though " do you concent to having sex with me starting from ... now". Of course by her reckoning men should be qualified mental health practicioners, we need to be able to judge when someone is in perfect mind to give consent. Notice how its not to withold consent but to give it, nice one.

Congratulations women, you've devalued rape - of all the hideous crimes you devalue that one, bravo.

I cant remember who said it but a quote i heard a while back now is "There is a differnce between being raped and fabio just not taking no for an answer". A dumb quote to be sure, ive mentioned it when talking to a few female friends and they say they 'understand' where the woman was comming from, real clever.

This world class footballer raped me, yes i gave him a blow job in the taxi and went back to his hotel room at 11pm but i didn't want sex.. did you say no, no but i didn't say yes, right.

Along the same lines amnesty international the other day were shocked and appalled about peoples perceptions about about women who dress with all thier bits hanging out and heavily flirt with men (nightclub scenario) alot of people polled , men and women (i think about a third) thought that they "we asking for it" , a great fuss was made about how no women asks to be raped - well duh. I don't want to be run over but i know that chances are if i keep stepping out in the middle of the road when cars are commming then i will be hit, most of the time i will get away with it because the drivers will slam the breaks on but at some point there will be a bad driver, maybe a not so experienced driver and i will be struck. Needless to say the driver shouldn't of hit me, but then i didnt do myself any favours.

Women wear cloths and makeup to make themselves sexually provocative, to make themselves look good, when they get sexual attention from guys because of it, it can go one of two ways - if she thinks the guy is good looking then its flattering for her, if she doesnt find the guy good looking then its an insult to her and shes disgusted at you for ever thinking that she could want anything to do with you, great. First question.. do you find me good looking? well your not bad but your obviously lacking confidence if you need to ask that, its such a turn off ya know,sheesh.

For the record i am not lax on rape, i believe that undeniable street rape should be met with castration and a lengthy prison sentence where the guy gets to be someone elses b*tch for a while. I have concerns about the way its all going though, you have to get specific consent, its not that the women has to say no or god forbid struggle and fight for it to be rape, its that they have to speficically give consent.

I could keep blabbering on about this but ill leave it there. Do not take anything out of context, i do not want to come back and see half quotes with comments under them like "so rape is ok then is it". No it is not.

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

Just the other day there was a case of a a woman who got drunk and was walked home by a doorman they had sex at the end of it. A few days later she started having 'flashbacks' (its always flashbacks, flashbacks mean bad), she reached the conclusion she was raped. Her case was that she was in no fit sense to concent - when the judge asked her if she concented she said she couldnt remember, the judge ended up throwing it out.

Next time he should get a signature of concent, maybe record a conversation "do you want to have sex with me?" oh wait no , because we are supposed to know that women can be fickle *wanting* to have sex and giving concent are two differnt things, "do you concent to having sex with me" of course you will need to specify a time though " do you concent to having sex with me starting from ... now". Of course by her reckoning men should be qualified mental health practicioners, we need to be able to judge when someone is in perfect mind to give consent. Notice how its not to withold consent but to give it, nice one.

Congratulations women, you've devalued rape - of all the hideous crimes you devalue that one, bravo.

I cant remember who said it but a quote i heard a while back now is "There is a differnce between being raped and fabio just not taking no for an answer". A dumb quote to be sure, ive mentioned it when talking to a few female friends and they say they 'understand' where the woman was comming from, real clever.

This world class footballer raped me, yes i gave him a blow job in the taxi and went back to his hotel room at 11pm but i didn't want sex.. did you say no, no but i didn't say yes, right.

Along the same lines amnesty international the other day were shocked and appalled about peoples perceptions about about women who dress with all thier bits hanging out and heavily flirt with men (nightclub scenario) alot of people polled , men and women (i think about a third) thought that they "we asking for it" , a great fuss was made about how no women asks to be raped - well duh. I don't want to be run over but i know that chances are if i keep stepping out in the middle of the road when cars are commming then i will be hit, most of the time i will get away with it because the drivers will slam the breaks on but at some point there will be a bad driver, maybe a not so experienced driver and i will be struck. Needless to say the driver shouldn't of hit me, but then i didnt do myself any favours.

Women wear cloths and makeup to make themselves sexually provocative, to make themselves look good, when they get sexual attention from guys because of it, it can go one of two ways - if she thinks the guy is good looking then its flattering for her, if she doesnt find the guy good looking then its an insult to her and shes disgusted at you for ever thinking that she could want anything to do with you, great. First question.. do you find me good looking? well your not bad but your obviously lacking confidence if you need to ask that, its such a turn off ya know,sheesh.

For the record i am not lax on rape, i believe that undeniable street rape should be met with castration and a lengthy prison sentence where the guy gets to be someone elses b*tch for a while. I have concerns about the way its all going though, you have to get specific consent, its not that the women has to say no or god forbid struggle and fight for it to be rape, its that they have to speficically give consent.

I could keep blabbering on about this but ill leave it there. Do not take anything out of context, i do not want to come back and see half quotes with comments under them like "so rape is ok then is it". No it is not.

Never thought about it that way before leChuz but you do have a point. By the way can any of the girls here enlighten us as to _how_ they give consent to a man?

[George]

let's go party.

[izzy]

Still waiting for a feminist answer to this. I live in hope!

Hi Shaker,

Thought it took two to tango.

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

Hi Shaker,

Thought it took two to tango.

The survey is about women and their attitudes, not men. Please reread the whole article and try to answer my previous question again.

A third of Scottish women in their early 40s have never had a child. They aren’t infertile, they simple don’t want children … and their number is growing.

[Guest magnoliawalls]

The survey is about women and their attitudes, not men. Please reread the whole article and try to answer my previous question again.

Shaker,

Many, if not most of these women will never have had the opportunity to raise a family - probably because they did not find a suitable partner or there were medical complications (these could include depression, alcoholism or hereditary illnesses).

When surveyed in your forties and asked why you never had children it sounds pathetic to reveal your sob story to a stranger. Much simpler to give the stock response that you have never wanted children.

If you know that you are highly unlikely to have a family of your own it surely makes sense to concentrate on your career, social life and extended family rather than indulging in self pity. You may even manage to convince yourself that what you have is what you really wanted.

About 12,000 women reported to the police that they had been raped in 2004/5. Against a female population of around 30 million, this means that the chance of the average woman being raped is 1 in 2,500. While clearly every single one of these rapes is reprehensible and unacceptable, we should not terrify women by grossly exaggerating the risks of being raped but rather encourage the adoption of sensible precautions (having your mobile phone with you at all times, carrying a rape alarm, don't walk on your own in unlit areas, etc).

The most sensible precaution of all is keeping your wits about you and not drinking yourself to oblivion.

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

Shaker,

Many, if not most of these women will never have had the opportunity to raise a family - probably because they did not find a suitable partner or there were medical complications (these could include depression, alcoholism or hereditary illnesses).

Women throughout history have always had these issues this generation is no different.

[Guest magnoliawalls]

Women throughout history have always had these issues this generation is no different.

True - but you seem outraged by this:

A third of Scottish women in their early 40s have never had a child. They aren’t infertile, they simple don’t want children … and their number is growing.

Surveys never reveal the whole story - has this proportion of childless women increased dramatically over the past hundred years? I would expect that there was always a significant proportion of the population who never had children. Looking at it the other way that quote implies approx 70% of Scottish women in their forties have at least one child.

I don't think that this has much to do with the legacy of feminism.

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

True - but you seem outraged by this:

Surveys never reveal the whole story - has this proportion of childless women increased dramatically over the past hundred years? I would expect that there was always a significant proportion of the population who never had children. Looking at it the other way that quote implies approx 70% of Scottish women in their forties have at least one child.

I don't think that this has much to do with the legacy of feminism.

I think the statistic is shocking and has everything to do with the legacy of feminism. The people who arranged the survey were also shocked at the figures. You seem the only one not to.

[izzy]

The survey is about women and their attitudes, not men. Please reread the whole article and try to answer my previous question again.

Yes I agree, the article does concern women's attitudes but isn't the complete lack of any investigation into men's attitudes on fertility rates more interesting.

The actions of women are often, rightly or wrongly, used as a moral barometer for a population.

Fewer couples are having fewer children. The reasons for this are complex and multiple.

Is it your opinion then that the declining birth rate is the direct causal result of feminism alone and the only notable feature of its legacy?