SNACR Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 I can only read what they post to back up their positions and draw the obvious conclusion. Been there, done that as far as running a business goes. Whenever people start cracking on about 'fat cat' high paid private sector pay it is dubbed the politics of envy. What is the difference here? Don't try to say it's got anything to do with the so called fact that 'we' are paying for public sector wages because 'we' are also paying for anyone's high wage via increased prices of the goods and services their company supplies. You get a T shirt cheap in Primark because the people who make it get paid bugger all. A suit from Saville Row costs a lot more because the tailor is basically taking advantage of your vanity....but that's apparantly ok because he provides 'quality' even though there is no way that his product is really 10 or 20 times better than an M&S job. The point I'm making here is that you guys are happy to pay well over the odds for stuff you deem to be good but anything that comes from taxes is bad and overpriced until proven otherwise. And on that point, god help anyone who tried to convince you of the need for any public service or that you may possibly be actually getting value for money. Uphill battle wouldn't even come close to describing that task. Tailored suits are of significantly better long-term value than off the peg sh1t. You've used a silly analogy but it throws light on your true sentiments, which are, you don't like people spending their own money on what they like. Assuming a large public sector was affordable (which it isn't) my problem isn't the cost it's the legions of nit-wits in make work jobs that inevitably end up meddling and interfering with everyone else who's happily minding their own business. I prefer a state of the seen and not heard variety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 You are missing choice out of your analysis, no? You can choose to overpay in the private sector, you can't choose anything in the public sector, you either stump up ro you get shot. I understand this theme that runs through many of your contributions and I agree with the basic point but in reality we pay for many private sector things without any real choice either. An example of that would be when my father bought us back here from the States in 1972. He had been used to earning $36k and paying USA prices for stuff. He never stopped going on about "rip off Britain" but he had no choice but to pay almost double for everything from a much lower wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 I understand this theme that runs through many of your contributions and I agree with the basic point but in reality we pay for many private sector things without any real choice either. An example of that would be when my father bought us back here from the States in 1972. He had been used to earning $36k and paying USA prices for stuff. He never stopped going on about "rip off Britain" but he had no choice but to pay almost double for everything from a much lower wage. Which is a different thing entirely than being kidnapped, beaten and locked up for not paying for something. High prices due to stuff no one can avoid sucks, but it's a different thing entirely than having to pay someone elses bills because they can stick you in a room with a rapist whenever they fancy. Conflating the two is ...well...to make an excuse for evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robo1968 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 I can only read what they post to back up their positions and draw the obvious conclusion. Been there, done that as far as running a business goes. Whenever people start cracking on about 'fat cat' high paid private sector pay it is dubbed the politics of envy. What is the difference here? Don't try to say it's got anything to do with the so called fact that 'we' are paying for public sector wages because 'we' are also paying for anyone's high wage via increased prices of the goods and services their company supplies. You get a T shirt cheap in Primark because the people who make it get paid bugger all. A suit from Saville Row costs a lot more because the tailor is basically taking advantage of your vanity....but that's apparantly ok because he provides 'quality' even though there is no way that his product is really 10 or 20 times better than an M&S job. The point I'm making here is that you guys are happy to pay well over the odds for stuff you deem to be good but anything that comes from taxes is bad and overpriced until proven otherwise. And on that point, god help anyone who tried to convince you of the need for any public service or that you may possibly be actually getting value for money. Uphill battle wouldn't even come close to describing that task. I see a number of people have already shot holes in this but I will answer it as it was a reply to me I am not envious, simply pointing out that on the basis of risk/reward I think a lot of these positions are overpaid. I don't understand the need to give some sort of example about suits or primark, although the key point you have raised is CHOICE, Your generalisations reduce the validity of your posts, there are plenty of good workers who are underpaid in the public sector but there are a swathe who may well be considered overpaid. Am I right in thinking the public sector borrowing for August 2010 was announced today as £13+Billion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Tailored suits are of significantly better long-term value than off the peg sh1t. You've used a silly analogy but it throws light on your true sentiments, which are, you don't like people spending their own money on what they like. Assuming a large public sector was affordable (which it isn't) my problem isn't the cost it's the legions of nit-wits in make work jobs that inevitably end up meddling and interfering with everyone else who's happily minding their own business. I prefer a state of the seen and not heard variety. And the same light is thrown on your true sentiments with your nit-wit and make work comments. What would be your position on the Police service? They definitely meddle and interfere. Do you see law breakers as 'victims' of an overbearing state? As for seen and not heard, you've got no chance. Why? Because the world is full of folk like you who prefer to be heard...and heard regularly....with fairly forceful opinions about what other folk should and shouldn't be doing. When those people get elected they will always do exactly what you would.....use the power to tell other folk what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robo1968 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Assuming a large public sector was affordable (which it isn't) my problem isn't the cost it's the legions of nit-wits in make work jobs that inevitably end up meddling and interfering with everyone else who's happily minding their own business. We need a meeting and we need one fast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umaguma Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 it's the legions of nit-wits in make work jobs that inevitably end up meddling and interfering with everyone else who's happily minding their own business. OH SO TRUE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 We need a meeting and we need one fast! but not before 10am - make that 10:15 or my goldfish might freak out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 OH SO TRUE I've been trying to work out why oh why Sweden have just returned a conservative government to its 2nd term despite a previously economically succesful social democrat government - I think it is exactly this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robo1968 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 but not before 10am - make that 10:15 or my goldfish might freak out Sorry tomorrow is a 'no can do' our communications officer is off with stress for the next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNACR Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 (edited) And the same light is thrown on your true sentiments with your nit-wit and make work comments. Do you see law breakers as 'victims' of an overbearing state? That kind of goes without saying Police are a prime example. Far too many, paid far too much for a job many others would do for less. They don't prevent crime instead favouring prosecuting minor motoring infractions mixed with acting as stewards for binge drinkers outside Yates's on a Saturday night. In fact, there priorities have become so misaligned from those who pay their wages that a large part of what they do is actually protecting criminals from the middle classes. Edited September 21, 2010 by Soon Not a Chain Retailer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Sorry tomorrow is a 'no can do' our communications officer is off with stress for the next week. ooh I could go on... but to be honest I suspect Analysis, Nicko et al are probably pretty hard working and wouldn't argue the way they did unless they cared about what they did but yeah meeting cultures - or rather BAD meeting cultures - are quite amusing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robo1968 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 ooh I could go on... but to be honest I suspect Analysis, Nicko et al are probably pretty hard working and wouldn't argue the way they did unless they cared about what they did but yeah meeting cultures - or rather BAD meeting cultures - are quite amusing You know you can fill a whole day with meetings, it sure beats work...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 I see a number of people have already shot holes in this but I will answer it as it was a reply to me I am not envious, simply pointing out that on the basis of risk/reward I think a lot of these positions are overpaid. I don't understand the need to give some sort of example about suits or primark, although the key point you have raised is CHOICE, Your generalisations reduce the validity of your posts, there are plenty of good workers who are underpaid in the public sector but there are a swathe who may well be considered overpaid. Am I right in thinking the public sector borrowing for August 2010 was announced today as £13+Billion? I don't agree with the 'politics of envy' thing. I only put it forward as an example of the kind of bogus defence that the private sector uses when challenged over it's own overpaid workers. Then there is your risk/reward point. Sounds like you are talking about gambling to me. Why must there be a risk associated with earning money? By taking that line you are devaluing all of the billions of people all over the world who do the steady but relatively risk free jobs that keep all the wheels turning which in turn allow the few 'brave' risk takers to succeed. When I take a risk I hope to be successful. Maybe even expect to be. But I never think that I am entitled to be just by dint of the taking of said risk. Hugely successful businessmen are renowned for overstating the risk they initially took and understating the amount of luck they had along the way. Anyway, by the time they get to the higher levels personal risk is largely a thing of the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets get it right Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 You won't hear it often, but taxpayers owe a big thankyou to Mr. Brown. Thanks for that. I needed a good laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 but not before 10am - make that 10:15 or my goldfish might freak out Yeah, that's right. Nothing gets done before 10. My wife had a meeting today that started at 9:30 in an office that's two and a half hours drive away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Yeah, that's right. Nothing gets done before 10. My wife had a meeting today that started at 9:30 in an office that's two and a half hours drive away. (sucks teeth) - 9.30 ohmygod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets get it right Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Yes, I imagine the government is hoping that if it can push down pay levels at the top, then that will lead to compression all the way down the scale in the name of "differentials". I think your plan of halving all pay over £25k is a good one. But as I say, even if no public sector worker was ever paid again that would still not be enough to eliminate the deficit (just). How much would the Bloo Loo cuts save? £40bn? That's a good start, but it's only a quarter of the way to solving the problem. The real cuts need to be in capital spending and transfers (benefits and the state pension). No Trident, no wars, no high speed rail, no airports, no roads, no new schools and hospitals, no sporting events, real cuts to tax credits, real cuts to the state pension, and so on. Public sector pay really is just the start. Pay cuts are only part of the picture. Take a million people out of the public sector and put them in the private sector. A million less salaries and pensions to pay, a million people paying tax instead of being paid by tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 That kind of goes without saying Police are a prime example. Far too many, paid far too much for a job many others would do for less. They don't prevent crime instead favouring prosecuting minor motoring infractions mixed with acting as stewards for binge drinkers outside Yates's on a Saturday night. In fact, there priorities have become so misaligned from those who pay their wages that a large part of what they do is actually protecting criminals from the middle classes. You fell right into that one. I would have bet my house (if I wasn't renting) that you would have a moan about coppers prosecuting people for something that's illegal but in your opinion not serious. It's that "What I do is OK because I'm a right thinking type and trustworthy to boot, so leave me alone if I go 5mph over the limit" nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNACR Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 You fell right into that one. I would have bet my house (if I wasn't renting) that you would have a moan about coppers prosecuting people for something that's illegal but in your opinion not serious. It's that "What I do is OK because I'm a right thinking type and trustworthy to boot, so leave me alone if I go 5mph over the limit" nonsense. There's clearly endless laws on the statute books that aren't enforced. Not seen them racing after people who lied on mortgage applications with their sirens blazing. If people doing 35mph through an empty village somewhere really stops you sleeping, then fine. However, get VOSA to enforce it not the police who are paid high salaries and pensions, supposedly, in compensation for the danger they're exposed to. Many of these things can still be dealt with but at a much lower cost than the incumbents and their attention-seeking union leader's are demanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 You fell right into that one. I would have bet my house (if I wasn't renting) that you would have a moan about coppers prosecuting people for something that's illegal but in your opinion not serious. It's that "What I do is OK because I'm a right thinking type and trustworthy to boot, so leave me alone if I go 5mph over the limit" nonsense. Very simpel way to sort this out as well. Just prosecute actual harm and not imaginary crap. No harm no foul. No plaintiff, no case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 (sucks teeth) - 9.30 ohmygod Well, you can take the p1ss or you can address the point. A 9:30 meeting 2.5 hours away means a 7am start. She got back home at 17:45 and that's nigh on an 11 hour day including 5 hours plus driving. Another point. Only the people who call meetings seem to like them. Everyone else dreads them. The comments about meeting culture are so outdated and full of misconceptions. The same applies to your ideas of what goes on in any government office these days. Still, you guys have adopted a position regarding the public sector that will only ever harden as you get older so there's little point in trying to shed any light on the truth, as witnessed by the way you regress to playground tit for tat stuff whenever any specific point is shown to be false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Very simpel way to sort this out as well. Just prosecute actual harm and not imaginary crap. No harm no foul. No plaintiff, no case. Yes, that would be fine. I would be in full agreement with a system like that. Trouble is, these guys I'm arguing with would throw someone in jail for just crossing a border without the right papers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Yes, that would be fine. I would be in full agreement with a system like that. Trouble is, these guys I'm arguing with would throw someone in jail for just crossing a border without the right papers. Oh yes, the right wingers generally want to act out their crappy childhoods on everyone else (neglect, no love, no empathy, only interested in money, arbitary rules and viscious athority figures etc) using the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurHon Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 In praise of Gordon Brown, he refused the pension that comes with the PM job. Cameron gets over 3 million, even if he leaves today. Easily surpassing even grasping teachers and council staff. You won't hear it often, but taxpayers owe a big thankyou to Mr. Brown. Because he choose not to reward failure by claiming a pension? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.