France Set To Impose Carbon Tax

[redwine]

The French don't give a f*ck about saving the planet Normandy has the highest concentration of "Nuclear power in the world"

Look at what they did to the "Rainbow Warrior" in New Zealand they just sank it

This new tax is nothing more than a rip - off Sarko wants to get rid of what they call here "the tax-professional" that only companies pay but theres alot of money involved

This tax will be passed onto the Mr and Mrs average apart from French business

This tax has nothing to do with carbon emissions its all about "business" yet again Sarko giving more tax -cuts to his business mates

He will use his "media" or Sarko tv to make it sound good and people that have long car journey's to go to work will get tax rebates

Just like last winter when over 8000 pensions died due to the cold ( they were all waiting for there tax rebates)

[BalancedBear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewables_Obligation

I'm aware of these. This does not confirm a subsidy of 10p / kwh though!

[DeepLurker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewables_Obligation

Hmm, I'm probably going to get flamed for being a pedant (again!) but I can't see the quoted figure of 10p anywhere in the linked page

[DeepLurker]

Anyway I don’t know why I get caught up in these stupid discussions, we are going to burn all the economically viable fossil fuels away if you like it or not.

+1 (for both of your statements: getting caught into another endless discussion about which energy source to use, and that all the oil is going to get burned no matter what).

[cells]

I'm aware of these. This does not confirm a subsidy of 10p / kwh though!

According to you there is no subsidy and in fact wind is cheaper than fossil fuels.

So why don’t you prove that?

[cells]

Hmm, I'm probably going to get flamed for being a pedant (again!) but I can't see the quoted figure of 10p anywhere in the linked page

that page says they are about 3.5p per kWh however i believe wind turbines get 1.5 of those onshore and 2 offshore so offshore they are 7p according to that site plus the actual cost of the grid which will be 3-4p

however i am not sure how accurate those figures are, i was lead to believe the ROCs varied in price and where not fixed.

anyway, there is a subsidy and it is big.

Only the most stupid of hippes try to argue renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels or nuclear.

[Damik]

Use some renewable that actually feasible without bankrupting the population, such as solar water heaters.

there is a problem that in a tough cold cloudy winter the nation will switch for couple of weeks to electrics (as the solar heaters will be useless) and you will get blackouts ....

[cells]

The French don't give a f*ck about saving the planet Normandy has the highest concentration of "Nuclear power in the world"

Look at what they did to the "Rainbow Warrior" in New Zealand they just sank it

This new tax is nothing more than a rip - off Sarko wants to get rid of what they call here "the tax-professional" that only companies pay but theres alot of money involved

This tax will be passed onto the Mr and Mrs average apart from French business

This tax has nothing to do with carbon emissions its all about "business" yet again Sarko giving more tax -cuts to his business mates

He will use his "media" or Sarko tv to make it sound good and people that have long car journey's to go to work will get tax rebates

Just like last winter when over 8000 pensions died due to the cold ( they were all waiting for there tax rebates)

All taxes are paid by the end user. The notion of a “business†tax is stupid.

[Damik]

Well this post here tells me that you know ****** all about energy.

We are talking about kWh which is a unit of energy.

A kWh of coal energy is the same as a kWh of gas is the same as a kWh of anything!

A CO2 tax will distort the market and screw everyone.

A simple example is if Europe adopted a 250 euro carbon tax then you would see Europe use a lot more gas and a lot less coal. Great you may think.

But what happens is that will push down the price of coal and push up the price of gas.

So someone else in the world who doesn’t care as much will reduce gas usage as it is now more pricy and increase coal usage as it is cheaper.

An energy tax maybe, a CO2 tax is stupid.

I do not get it:

vulcanos produce 1% of CO2 produced by humans

but humans have produced the CO2 in massive scale in last 100 years; vulcanos for last millions

why is not the vulcano CO2 responsible for global waming???

[cells]

I do not get it:

vulcanos produce 1% of CO2 produced by humans

but humans have produced the CO2 in massive scale in last 100 years; vulcanos for last millions

why is not the vulcano CO2 responsible for global waming???

i don’t care about global warming and don’t think it is of importance, ie the impact will be minor.

i do care about the governments choices of energy because the wrong choices mean this whole country will end up being poorer

[DeepLurker]

that page says they are about 3.5p per kWh however i believe wind turbines get 1.5 of those onshore and 2 offshore so offshore they are 7p according to that site plus the actual cost of the grid which will be 3-4p

however i am not sure how accurate those figures are, i was lead to believe the ROCs varied in price and where not fixed.

anyway, there is a subsidy and it is big.

Only the most stupid of hippes try to argue renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels or nuclear.

Are you saying that I am a stupid hippy who claims that renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels or nuclear?

Funny that, I have no memory of ever saying such a thing.

But hey, feel free to post links that prove otherwise.

Alternatively, an apology will be acceptable (slandering other people and calling them 'stupid' is impolite, in case you didn't know).

[redwine]

All taxes are paid by the end user. The notion of a “business†tax is stupid.

You are right but if you are in goverment and you want to give even more tax cuts to your mates i think that the so called saving the planet tax is a good excuse

We have had a very hot summer this year in France and so called ozone -alert has gone through the roof several times in many big cities Paris Lyon Marseille

The only govt reaction has been a voluntary drive a bit slower media campaign but no real public transport or green policy has been put in place

Change nothing and tax everybody = save the planet

[cells]

Are you saying that I am a stupid hippy who claims that renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels or nuclear?

Funny that, I have no memory of ever saying such a thing.

But hey, feel free to post links that prove otherwise.

Alternatively, an apology will be acceptable (slandering other people and calling them 'stupid' is impolite, in case you didn't know).

Sadly most people are stupid. The comment wasn’t targeted at you, it was a general comment to anyone who proposes anything without first thinking of costs.

I find it really odd because we all manage our personal budgets and there are things we can and cannot afford yet when it comes to the government we talk and ask for things like we are children with no concept of money.

Lots of green nuts claim “eco†energy is cheaper than fossil fuels, a fool was on the BBC arguing that point with someone who was sceptical. If it were me I would have stared at the camera and simply said, this fool is lying through his teeth or is extremely ignorant, wind is not cheaper than fossil fuels, so I see no value in debating this topic with such a person. and then just walked out.

[DeepLurker]

Sadly most people are stupid. The comment wasn’t targeted at you, it was a general comment to anyone who proposes anything without first thinking of costs.

I find it really odd because we all manage our personal budgets and there are things we can and cannot afford yet when it comes to the government we talk and ask for things like we are children with no concept of money.

Lots of green nuts claim “eco†energy is cheaper than fossil fuels, a fool was on the BBC arguing that point with someone who was sceptical. If it were me I would have stared at the camera and simply said, this fool is lying through his teeth or is extremely ignorant, wind is not cheaper than fossil fuels, so I see no value in debating this topic with such a person. and then just walked out.

You need to be more careful about what you write then - because I certainly felt targeted.

But to move (hopefully) this debate forward, can we just agree on one little thing: are we all in favour of cutting subsidies to all forms of power generation - be they nuclear, coal, wind or dwarfs on treadmills, and then just letting the market sort it out?

[cells]

You need to be more careful about what you write then - because I certainly felt targeted.

But to move (hopefully) this debate forward, can we just agree on one little thing: are we all in favour of cutting subsidies to all forms of power generation - be they nuclear, coal, wind or dwarfs on treadmills, and then just letting the market sort it out?

sure but no country in the world at least over the last 100 years has embraced full capitalism so that is never going to happen.

there will be tinkering, subsidies be they direct or indirect, research money into certain fields, back handers, illegal deals, all sorts.

personally i would be in favour of nuclear not because it doesn’t emits those evil terrorist CO2 molecules but because once built they would last 60 years (and probably longer) and provide cheap-ish stable energy. (plus they need refuelling every 1.5 years so on average you will have 9 months in the reactor at any one time) so no energy shocks or people holding supplies back like the Russians with gas.

However that is enough for only electricity. we would still be using and emitting lots of CO2 as 2/3 of the power we use isn’t electricity. however i see no problem in using fossil fuels so am ok with that.

conservation would be a good idea generally though and we should start that ASAP especially the easy acts.

for example the average house could save over 5,000-10,000 kWh of gas a year by purchasing electric blankets etc and heating their beds instead of the whole house at night. so turn the heating off half an hour before bed and get it to turn on half and hour before you wake (or even turn on when your back from work).

so instead of a boiler using 5000+ watts of power you have electric blanket using 100 watts.

Pays for itself in one winter and is easy to do. Saves a considerable amount of fossil fuels and saves money.

[Authoritarian]

sure but no country in the world at least over the last 100 years has embraced full capitalism so that is never going to happen.

there will be tinkering, subsidies be they direct or indirect, research money into certain fields, back handers, illegal deals, all sorts.

personally i would be in favour of nuclear not because it doesn’t emits those evil terrorist CO2 molecules but because once built they would last 60 years (and probably longer) and provide cheap-ish stable energy. (plus they need refuelling every 1.5 years so on average you will have 9 months in the reactor at any one time) so no energy shocks or people holding supplies back like the Russians with gas.

However that is enough for only electricity. we would still be using and emitting lots of CO2 as 2/3 of the power we use isn’t electricity. however i see no problem in using fossil fuels so am ok with that.

conservation would be a good idea generally though and we should start that ASAP especially the easy acts.

for example the average house could save over 5,000-10,000 kWh of gas a year by purchasing electric blankets etc and heating their beds instead of the whole house at night. so turn the heating off half an hour before bed and get it to turn on half and hour before you wake (or even turn on when your back from work).

so instead of a boiler using 5000+ watts of power you have electric blanket using 100 watts.

Pays for itself in one winter and is easy to do. Saves a considerable amount of fossil fuels and saves money.

Is there still the waste problem with nuclear?

[cells]

Is there still the waste problem with nuclear?

It isn’t a problem unless you go and lick the barrels containing the waste.

Storing nuclear isn’t difficult or hard to do. We could dump it into an old oil field 10km down in the earth if we wanted however the waste is useful so we should hold onto it

Some 4th generation nuclear designs can use current and past waste as fuel. All of it.

So currently we use 5% and the other 95% is waste. Some 4th generation nuclear plants can take that 95% and use the lot up so this generations waste is potentially creating the fuel for the next generation plants.

[indirectapproach]

Isn't this just a hidden tariff on 4 x4's because the French don't make many of them?

[abharrisson]

In other news, china brings online another 2 coal power stations.

These green taxes / laws only help stunt our economic growth, giving any country that doesnt abide by the same principles a huge competitive advantage.

True but unreported I think china rules the roost in alternative fuels as well.... that huge three gorges dam they built alone manages to provide power for 50 million ( thats almost the whole of the UK)... equally they lead the world I think in the production of wind turbines and PVC's etc so while sure they are building polluting stations at a frightening rate they also are doing other things. I must say I do find it surpirsing they are not building millions of nuclear staions, they have the technology and while I suppose more expensive to build these stations would limit the need for china to use and have to buy loads and loads of coal and oil and gas etc.

[Agentimmo]

It isn’t a problem unless you go and lick the barrels containing the waste.

Storing nuclear isn’t difficult or hard to do. We could dump it into an old oil field 10km down in the earth if we wanted however the waste is useful so we should hold onto it

Some 4th generation nuclear designs can use current and past waste as fuel. All of it.

So currently we use 5% and the other 95% is waste. Some 4th generation nuclear plants can take that 95% and use the lot up so this generations waste is potentially creating the fuel for the next generation plants.

What a flippant phrase. Program on French tv the other night highlighted the plight of nuclear power workers who maintain the reactors. About half will contract some form of cancer in their lifetimes. And this is in spite of the "stringent" safety procedures in place. It's a dirty little secret that the nuclear industry prefers to hide.

I agree with you though that the main problem with nuclear isn't it's storage. The mis-use of the technology by rogue states and the possibilty of another Chernobyl or 3-Mile Island are much bigger issues.

[ralphmalph]

Is there still the waste problem with nuclear?

Do we not live on a giant fisson reactor?

Is the earth not Nuclear waste itself, just residue from the Big Bang?

[cells]

True but unreported I think china rules the roost in alternative fuels as well.... that huge three gorges dam they built alone manages to provide power for 50 million ( thats almost the whole of the UK)... equally they lead the world I think in the production of wind turbines and PVC's etc so while sure they are building polluting stations at a frightening rate they also are doing other things. I must say I do find it surpirsing they are not building millions of nuclear staions, they have the technology and while I suppose more expensive to build these stations would limit the need for china to use and have to buy loads and loads of coal and oil and gas etc.

China has chosen coal because it has huge reserves of coal.

It is self sufficient in coal and the world biggest producer.

If china didn’t have those reserves they probably would have chosen nuclear instead.

As for the 3 gorges dam I think it has a full capacity of 18 giga watts and will perhaps be producing 10-12 giga watts on average. That is equal roughly to 6 big nuclear powerplants.

By comparison we use about 40-45 giga watts of electricity on average of which 9GW or so is from nuclear.

[cells]

What a flippant phrase. Program on French tv the other night highlighted the plight of nuclear power workers who maintain the reactors. About half will contract some form of cancer in their lifetimes. And this is in spite of the "stringent" safety procedures in place. It's a dirty little secret that the nuclear industry prefers to hide.

I agree with you though that the main problem with nuclear isn't it's storage. The mis-use of the technology by rogue states and the possibilty of another Chernobyl or 3-Mile Island are much bigger issues.

Do you have any proof of this?

People who don’t work in nuclear plants also get cancer.

If it was the case that nuclear workers were being harmed and it was statistically proven then im sure they would sue but even more simply all the operations that involved humans would be automated to get around that problem if it exists.

[dumb-tabloid reader]

This tax which will shoot up over time and more so in the UK it is another death nail in our living standards.

But a good hedge to HPCers would be buy the smallest flat or house as needed as near as possible to work and play so to speak and more important where other people will want to live this should be a good hedge.

A small studio flat today may cost about £500 pa to be nice and warm but an old large detached house 3k or so assuming heating costs will double every 5 to 10 years and wages stay flat due to our jobs being exported to China which I assume wont impose such a tax.

Who wants to live in a cold house?

Who wants to pay £10 a gallon probably in 10 years?

People will want or need small houses or flats because of the above and reduce car use in the long term and smaller well located props will probably hold up better than the bigger ones so live or invest wisely.

Big cars loose their value to nothing very quickly compared to small cars big houses I expect to do the same to some degree.

What a load of Tosh. I've just bought a 120m2 house in France. All our heating is wood (from our own land. ie. Free and no tax), and heat pumps run by electricity. 3K to heat this house, not on your nelly. I pay less than a Brit in a one bed flat!

[cells]

What a load of Tosh. I've just bought a 120m2 house in France. All our heating is wood (from our own land. ie. Free and no tax), and heat pumps run by electricity. 3K to heat this house, not on your nelly. I pay less than a Brit in a one bed flat!

On Friday, the forward price of power for November reached more than £130 per megawatt hour. In France, it was about 40 (£31) per megawatt hour, according to Spectron, a supplier of energy market data. In Germany, the price stood at around 97 per megawatt hour.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle4888149.ece

Thanks to the uk governments stance of no nuclear, no coal, no nothing but shiny windy turbines.

Edited September 11, 2009 by cells