Intelligent Design - A Surprisingly Worthwhile Video

[UndercoverElephant]

I'm hoping that you're being heavy on the irony circuits. ID is a crock of shite. And people who think that natural selection is 'chance' clearly don't have the intellect or scientific knowledge to understand what's what.

I don't know whether that is a deliberate reference but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_(novel)

Island is the final book by English writer Aldous Huxley, published in 1962. It is the account of Will Farnaby, a cynical journalist who is shipwrecked on the fictional island of Pala. Island is Huxley's utopian counterpart to his most famous work, the 1932 novel Brave New World

[snip]

The culture of Pala is the offspring of a Scottish secular humanist medical doctor, shipwrecked on the island in the 19th century, who decides to stay on the island and work with its Raja, who embodies the island's Mahayana Buddhist tradition, to create a society that merges the best, in Huxley's view, of East and West. The Old Raja's treatise Notes on What's What is a book within the book that explains Pala's philosophical foundations.

http://www.island.org/Huxley/whatswhat.html

Nobody needs to go anywhere else. We are all, if we only knew it, already there.

If I only knew who in fact I am, I should cease to behave as what I think I am; and if I stopped behaving as what I think I am, I should know who I am.

What in fact I am, if only the Manichee I think I am would allow me to know it, is the reconciliation of yes and no lived out in total acceptance and the blessed experience of Not-Two.

In religion all words are dirty words. Anyone who gets eloquent about Buddha, or God, or Christ, ought to have his mouth washed out with carbolic soap.

[snip]

Concentration, abstract thinking, spiritual exercises---systematic exclusions in the realm of thought. Asceticism and hedonism---systematic exclusions in the realms of sensation, feeling and action. But Good Being is in the knowledge of who in fact is in relation to all experiences. So be aware---aware in every context, at all times and whatever, creditable or discreditable, pleasant or unpleasant, you may be doing or suffering. This is the only genuine yoga, the only spiritual exercise worth practicing.

The more a man knows about individual objects, the more he knows about God. Translating Spinoza's language into ours, we can say: The more a man knows about himself in relation to every kind of experience, the greater his chance of suddenly, one fine morning, realizing who in fact he is---or rather Who (capital W) in Fact (capital F) "he" (between quotation marks) Is (capital I).

St. John was right. In a blessedly speechless universe, the Word was not only with God; it was God. As a something to be believed in. God is a projected symbol, a reified name. God = "God."

Faith is something very different from belief. Belief is the systematic taking of unanalyzed words much too seriously. Paul's words, Mohammed's words, Marx's words, Hitler's words---people take them too seriously, and what happens? What happens is the senseless ambivalence of history---sadism versus duty, or (incomparably worse) sadism as duty; devotion counterbalanced by organized paranoia; sisters of charity selflessly tending the victims of their own church's inquisitors and crusaders. Faith, on the contrary, can never be taken too seriously. For Faith is the empirically justified confidence in our capacity to know who in fact we are, to forget the belief-intoxicated Manichee in Good Being. Give us this day our daily Faith, but deliver us, dear God, from Belief.

[snip]

"Patriotism is not enough." But neither is anything else. Science is not enough, religion is not enough, art is not enough, politics and economics are not enough, nor is love, nor is duty, nor is action however disinterested, nor, however sublime, is contemplation. Nothing short of everything will really do.

[Guest X-QUORK]

I'm not a Christian, but I also don't see the need for any conflict between Christianity and science.

I do. If you strip away all the supernatural hokum (non-science) in the Bible i.e. miracles and the resurrection of Christ, you're left with what? Certainly not Christianity.

[Guest X-QUORK]

If they admit that the primary motivation is a literal belief in the Bible then it is theology - bad theology. Bad theology can only be dealt with by "good" theologians. There's no point in scientists trying to deal with it, because the bad theologians won't listen to them.

So, "good" theologians are the ones who successfully spin inherent Biblical absurdity into something more believable?

It always raises a wry smile when I hear religious modernists try to explain away the hypocrisy, violence and magical events written about in the Bible.

[Guest X-QUORK]

Hoping for a scientific explanation of consciousness is a bit like hoping for a scientific explanation of soul/souls.

Souls do not exist.

That was easy.

[UndercoverElephant]

So, "good" theologians are the ones who successfully spin inherent Biblical absurdity into something more believable?

It always raises a wry smile when I hear religious modernists try to explain away the hypocrisy, violence and magical events written about in the Bible.

Large parts of the Bible are quite obviously supposed to be understood symbolically or metaphorically. I am not trying to deny the fact that much of the Old Testament is supposed to be taken literally (e.g. Leviticus). There is no reason why a legal system which is appropriate to a bunch of iron-age nomads cannot be applied to the modern world. I'm not trying to excuse the bloody history of the Catholic Church. I'm not trying to strip religion of all its mysticism, either. However, if atheists and critics of religion think they can assume the Bible should be taken literally then they are making the same mistake as the literalists. They are attacking a straw man. It is a hell of a lot easier to attack a literal intepretation than a symbolic/metaphorical one.

Christianity cannot be destroyed, so perhaps we should aim to encourage reform instead.

[UndercoverElephant]

Souls do not exist.

That was easy.

As far as a scientist/materialist is concerned, neither does consciousness.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/materialism-eliminative/

[Guest X-QUORK]

I think this sentiment should apply to religious jazz, too.

That's a music section I'll be giving a miss next time I'm in HMV.

[Guest anorthosite]

Large parts of the Bible are quite obviously supposed to be understood symbolically or metaphorically.

So where's the disclaimer? Surely if the bible is the word of god it shouldn't be so vague.

I am not trying to deny the fact that much of the Old Testament is supposed to be taken literally (e.g. Leviticus). There is no reason why a legal system which is appropriate to a bunch of iron-age nomads cannot be applied to the modern world.

No reason why it should either. Perhaps we should bring in ancient Carthaginian law as well?

I'm not trying to strip religion of all its mysticism, either. However, if atheists and critics of religion think they can assume the Bible should be taken literally then they are making the same mistake as the literalists. They are attacking a straw man. It is a hell of a lot easier to attack a literal intepretation than a symbolic/metaphorical one.

That's such a cop out. Anything now means whatever you want it to mean. That's the way of holy wars.

Christianity cannot be destroyed, so perhaps we should aim to encourage reform instead.

Neither can child abuse or disease. But we don't encourage them, we do everything we can to reduce the damage they do to people & society. We should treat religion the same.

[Guest Skinty]

So where's the disclaimer? Surely if the bible is the word of god it shouldn't be so vague.

Put "Bible disclaimer" into google and you get loads Some you can even buy in sticker form to plaster over any bible that you come across (no pun intended ... but if that's what floats your boat then fine by me)

[UndercoverElephant]

So where's the disclaimer? Surely if the bible is the word of god it shouldn't be so vague.

You are talking about a book that was written two millenia ago. It must be treated as what it is, not compared to modern literature.

No reason why it should either. Perhaps we should bring in ancient Carthaginian law as well?

My bad, I meant there is no reason why it should. Typo.

That's such a cop out. Anything now means whatever you want it to mean. That's the way of holy wars.

That's the way of all non-scientific literature, especially all religious literature. It is there to be interpreted.

Neither can child abuse or disease. But we don't encourage them, we do everything we can to reduce the damage they do to people & society. We should treat religion the same.

We have nothing to fill the void it would leave. New religions would keep on being invented.

[Guest anorthosite]

You are talking about a book that was written two millenia ago. It must be treated as what it is, not compared to modern literature.

A bunch of fairy stories to scare the masses?

That's the way of all non-scientific literature, especially all religious literature. It is there to be interpreted.

People tend not to base lives, societies & legal systems on "all non-scientific literature". If you think it has any bearing on real life, it needs something a bit more substantial.

We have nothing to fill the void it would leave. New religions would keep on being invented.

And these religions are just as valid as christianity. Although any "invented" religion might be at least slightly relevant to the modern world, unlike the bible.

[UndercoverElephant]

A bunch of fairy stories to scare the masses?

The Bible is a complicated book. It was written by many different people over a long period of time and for many different reasons. Some of those people may well have been trying to scare people. Revelations is terrifying.

People tend not to base lives, societies & legal systems on "all non-scientific literature".

What do you think they based their lives on then? Science?

If you think it has any bearing on real life, it needs something a bit more substantial.

Real life is more complicated than that. Science gives us a greater level of warrant for certain sorts of beliefs, but there is a price associated with that. The price is that there are certain sorts of questions that science can't even try to answer. Those non-scientific questions are addressed by art, philosophy and religion.

[Guest anorthosite]

The Bible is a complicated book. It was written by many different people over a long period of time and for many different reasons. Some of those people may well have been trying to scare people. Revelations is terrifying.

Revelations isn't terrifying, not if you compare it to that Doctor Who episode with the statues that come alive when you don't look at them.

Lets be honest, if you don't believe in god then revelations is very weird and probably about Nero.

What do you think they based their lives on then? Science?

If science can provide the answer, then yes. However I fully appreciate that science cannot answer everything. Some things are relative.

Real life is more complicated than that. Science gives us a greater level of warrant for certain sorts of beliefs, but there is a price associated with that. The price is that there are certain sorts of questions that science can't even try to answer. Those non-scientific questions are addressed by art, philosophy and religion.

Thank you for the lecture on real life. I do live one, you know. However, you seem to be trying to create some kind of religion/science argument here about society. I am not.

[UndercoverElephant]

Revelations isn't terrifying, not if you compare it to that Doctor Who episode with the statues that come alive when you don't look at them.

Lets be honest, if you don't believe in god then revelations is very weird and probably about Nero.

It's pretty terrifying if you do believe in God.

[Ologhai Jones]

I think this sentiment should apply to religious jazz, too.

That's a music section I'll be giving a miss next time I'm in HMV.

I think your brain must be too highly trained, Majikthise...

[newbonic]

It's [Revelations] pretty terrifying if you do believe in God.

Yes, the scary stories were good at keeping the peasants in line - suffer in this world but get rewards in the next etc. An approach that still pays dividends today with the suicide killers being promised holy booze and 72 virgins to screw for ever and ever.

And in the tribal late iron age middle east the average peasant knew no better.

Just out of interest, which of the religions below with their own creation mythology do you think would be scared by Revelations? Or do you think there's only your god and the rest are wrong?

And if theirs are wrong why isn't yours?

Islam

Hinduism

Chinese traditional religion

Buddhism

primal-indigenous

African Traditional & Diasporic

Sikhism

Juche

Spiritism

Judaism

Baha'i

Jainism

Shinto

Cao Dai

Zoroastrianism

Tenrikyo

Neo-Paganism

Unitarian-Universalism

Rastafarianism

Scientology

etc.

[Guest anorthosite]

It's pretty terrifying if you do believe in God.

Then don't believe in god. Problem solved!

[oracle]

The Bible is a complicated book. It was written by many different people over a long period of time and for many different reasons. Some of those people may well have been trying to scare people. Revelations is terrifying.

well we are in that time now.

what the priesthood are trying to keep in their own little cabal,not for public consumption is some of the more esoteric,astrological/astronomical stuff that puts this into perspective.

god made it quite plain that the practice of the divination arts was not on(he didn't say the knowledge of..but the practice of).I know enough about astrology and geomagnetics to know how the system operates but have never used this information for personal gain.

knowing full well that the practicioners of such things WOULD take advantage of these things to gain power and control.

...and it has happened.

The bad news for these guys is there is a celestial change coming,and they haven't got a bloody clue where things are going to end up,so a sacraficial system has to be adopted that will satisfy their "gods"

it has plenty do do with 2012,but we'll start seeing the forerunner to it later this year/early next as the "balance" has to be maintained.

we will have an attack of some sort soon(later this year/early next)...but the one that will finish the west (with the exception of germany)will be in 2014.

to say there is no authority behind the design of the universe is pure nonsense.

I don't think we've even begun to scratch the surface of what's really going on,and it's not just the physical realm I'm talking about either.

[UndercoverElephant]

Yes, the scary stories were good at keeping the peasants in line - suffer in this world but get rewards in the next etc. An approach that still pays dividends today with the suicide killers being promised holy booze and 72 virgins to screw for ever and ever.

And in the tribal late iron age middle east the average peasant knew no better.

Just out of interest, which of the religions below with their own creation mythology do you think would be scared by Revelations? Or do you think there's only your god and the rest are wrong?

None of them are right and all of them are right. [EDIT: apart from scientology, which isn't a religion at all and should be made illegal]

[UndercoverElephant]

well we are in that time now.

what the priesthood are trying to keep in their own little cabal,not for public consumption is some of the more esoteric,astrological/astronomical stuff that puts this into perspective.

god made it quite plain that the practice of the divination arts was not on(he didn't say the knowledge of..but the practice of).I know enough about astrology and geomagnetics to know how the system operates but have never used this information for personal gain.

knowing full well that the practicioners of such things WOULD take advantage of these things to gain power and control.

...and it has happened.

The bad news for these guys is there is a celestial change coming,and they haven't got a bloody clue where things are going to end up,so a sacraficial system has to be adopted that will satisfy their "gods"

it has plenty do do with 2012,but we'll start seeing the forerunner to it later this year/early next as the "balance" has to be maintained.

we will have an attack of some sort soon(later this year/early next)...but the one that will finish the west (with the exception of germany)will be in 2014.

to say there is no authority behind the design of the universe is pure nonsense.

I don't think we've even begun to scratch the surface of what's really going on,and it's not just the physical realm I'm talking about either.

I have some sympathy for some of what you are saying, but would disagree with some other things. I'm not sure it's worth getting into the details.

[Guest anorthosite]

None of them are right and all of them are right. [EDIT: apart from scientology, which isn't a religion at all and should be made illegal]

HOLY WAR!!!!!!!

[UndercoverElephant]

HOLY WAR!!!!!!!

Scientology is a money-making scam, not a religion. It was made up by a person who didn't believe his own "religion" and who had previously written a novel about a person who deliberately invents a cult designed to make himself rich.

[oracle]

I have some sympathy for some of what you are saying, but would disagree with some other things. I'm not sure it's worth getting into the details.

it'd be nice if you would share some of your views mate.

the last war has already started,it's merely a matter of conjecture as to whether it kicked off in 1990 or in 2001.

it is to last 27 years.

in order for a few other prophecies to be fulfilled(and relevent placemen into the right positions),blighty is not in the best position in truth.

and yes it is holy war!!!

there is plenty of prophecy-flinging and soothsaying on all parts!!

[Guest anorthosite]

Scientology is a money-making scam, not a religion. It was made up by a person who didn't believe his own "religion" and who had previously written a novel about a person who deliberately invents a cult designed to make himself rich.

A new religion is like a whore or a politician. If it lives long enough it becomes respectable

[Guest Steve Cook]

I will admit that when I was in early adolescence I did some similar thinking on this topic. I wasn't brought up to believe in God or to be an atheist, my parents left me to interpret things for myself and make my own mind up (thanks Mum and Dad).

So, when you think about it, here we are the right distance from the sun in the depths of a huge universe. On our little planet we've got all the things we need to exploit to live our wonderful modern lives. Wood, metals, oil, coal, gas. I did think momentarily that it's almost like someone generously put them all there for us to use. Not to mention granting us oxygen to breath, water to drink and plants and animals to eat. Thank the Lord.

But hang on a minute. Perhaps we've just capitalised on what happens to be at hand (trees, mineral deposits etc.)? Maybe the oxygen and water came first and we evolved into that environment? In fact, are oil, metals and wood really that fantastic, or just the only things to hand? Actually I feel I've been short-changed. Why the hell didn't God design me so I never have to eat, drink, piss or sh1t, after all, these physical handicaps are a big inconvenience. And while I'm at it why didn't he give me lightspeed wings so I can fly to the other side of the universe and back if I wish. He's not so benevolent after all is he?

No he isn't. Because he/she/it doesn't f4cking exist. It's voodoo fairy tales. That is all.

Religion/creationism/intelligent design is the product of an ignorant and arrogant mind. Ignorant, because you are too stupid to look at the facts and make sense of coherent philosophical debate on the matter (read Dawkins please). Arrogant, because nature blessed you with a slightly bigger brain than the other species on this planet, but you use it to assume you are somehow superior to everything else and therefore someone/thing must have divinely created you and the wonderful world around you, because you're so f4cking special.

If you need any more convincing about the non-existence of an intelligent creator here's a good one - child abuse. Who/what the hell creates a world where child abuse occurs? If there is a God he's a total f4cking b@stard.

Where's my lightspeed wings you @rsehole? :angry:

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