Criminalising Protesters And Labelling Asian Students As Terrorists

[Game_Over]

Of course freedom loving, democracy defending people that we are, can get locked up for quering a very narrow, lobbyists version of history. Why?

Deny all you want

But remember the poem

It was the Jews last time

Who will it be next time?

[PopGun]

Deny all you want

But remember the poem

It was the Jews last time

Who will it be next time?

In this country, it appears to be anyone still in employment!!

[ebob]

Deny all you want

But remember the poem

It was the Jews last time

Who will it be next time?

Pakistanis?

[pete.hpc]

Deny all you want

But remember the poem

It was the Jews last time

Who will it be next time?

The gingers?

[Sinking Feeling]

The gingers?

Yup everyone hates ginger people!

[Game_Over]

Pakistanis?

You tell me?

But if we carry on down the road we are travelling at the moment SOMEONE is going to be coming for SOMEBODY eventually.

The gates of Hell have been flung open, can anyone close them again?

I doubt it.

[pete.hpc]

You tell me?

But if we carry on down the road we are travelling at the moment SOMEONE is going to be coming for SOMEBODY eventually.

Aye, SOMEONE will certainly do SOMETHING to SOMEONE at SOME POINT, and you can bet SOMEONE will be to blame

The gates of Hell have been flung open, can anyone close them again?

Oh ****** off

[ebob]

You tell me?

But if we carry on down the road we are travelling at the moment SOMEONE is going to be coming for SOMEBODY eventually.

The gates of Hell have been flung open, can anyone close them again?

I doubt it.

What gibberish.

Who do you think invites immigration in the first place. Our government.

Why?: It is an inflation management tool, as 'our own' are too lazy to want to work low end jobs. Anyhow, why bother, when welfare pays so well and it can be fiddled so easily these days. This scam also extends to some MPs who are benefit frausters.

And all YOU do is blame Johnny Foreigner for home grown problems.

Stick to reading the Sun!

[SMAC67]

It is obvious to THEM

And it is obvious to ME

If it isn't obvious to YOU

Then I suggest you give up trying to understand anything that is happening in the World

And I believe in live and let live as a general principle

However, if someone wants to kill me and mine, it seems obvious that it is a good idea to get them before they get us.

Perhaps you could explain why a British citizen blows themselves up killing other British citizens because they don't like something the British government did?

BTW I don't expect a sensible answer, because there isn't one.

I would rather not share the planet with THEM or YOU, but heh, I'm stuck here with all sorts of violent idiots. I understand the world, but I suspect that your "live and let live" claim is somewhat fanciful.

If you want a sensible answer then I would suggest you read What Terrorists Want by Louise Richardson and also look in the mirror. The terrorist is YOU.

[lotus eater]

What gibberish.

Who do you think invites immigration in the first place. Our government.

Why?: It is an inflation management tool, as 'our own' are too lazy to want to work low end jobs. Anyhow, why bother, when welfare pays so well and it can be fiddled so easily these days. This scam also extends to some MPs who are benefit frausters.

And all YOU do is blame Johnny Foreigner for home grown problems.

Stick to reading the Sun!

[/quote]

Which I assume is the paper of your choice, or is the Daily Express?

[ebob]

What gibberish.

Who do you think invites immigration in the first place. Our government.

Why?: It is an inflation management tool, as 'our own' are too lazy to want to work low end jobs. Anyhow, why bother, when welfare pays so well and it can be fiddled so easily these days. This scam also extends to some MPs who are benefit frausters.

And all YOU do is blame Johnny Foreigner for home grown problems.

Stick to reading the Sun!

Which I assume is the paper of your choice, or is the Daily Express?

Why do you make that assumption?

I read a variety of sources that include the FT, The Times (despite right-wing Murdoch's influence) and also third party economists and analysts. I do this to try and get a fuller more balanced view of worldly opinions that exist, so that I may act accordingly.

[Game_Over]

Quote SMAC67

I would rather not share the planet with THEM or YOU, but heh, I'm stuck here with all sorts of violent idiots. I understand the world, but I suspect that your "live and let live" claim is somewhat fanciful.

If you want a sensible answer then I would suggest you read What Terrorists Want by Louise Richardson and also look in the mirror. The terrorist is YOU.

End Quote

I really do feel sorry for you Guardian reader types having to live in the REAL World.

'If you want peace, prepare for war.'

The parallels with the 1930's are frightening.

We have a Global economic depression,

A threat to World peace,

And Liberals desperately trying to justify appeasement.

We have all the ingredients for a disaster.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Game_Over

[Guest LongBlackKilt]

A battle of ideas which isn't that hard to justify....

If you are a woman, a gay man, a free thinker or someone who doesn't relish living a backwards, medieval life then Islam is to be avoided at all costs.

A large proportion of Muslims regard us as Kaffirs- a term which is on a par with Nazi ideas on "sub human" races. This isn't a great start for tolerance and understanding which requires a willingness on both sides.

But when it comes to rewarding Irish Catholic terrorists then I suspect that you and other London Looney Left affiliates would think quite differently. [if Pakistan is a failing state which has ceded control to extremists in the NW of its territory then it must be dragged over the coals but...] No doubt you'll continue to take your cue from Tony-and-Cherie and their politically correct co-religionists. Just don't expect some other people to continue funding your duplicitous warped metropolitan lifestyle.

[ebob]

Quote SMAC67

I would rather not share the planet with THEM or YOU, but heh, I'm stuck here with all sorts of violent idiots. I understand the world, but I suspect that your "live and let live" claim is somewhat fanciful.

If you want a sensible answer then I would suggest you read What Terrorists Want by Louise Richardson and also look in the mirror. The terrorist is YOU.

End Quote

I really do feel sorry for you Guardian reader types having to live in the REAL World.

'If you want peace, prepare for war.'

The parallels with the 1930's are frightening.

We have a Global economic depression,

A threat to World peace,

And Liberals desperately trying to justify appeasement.

We have all the ingredients for a disaster.

We are in a war we cannot win. We invaded two contries coz our US master's told us to and now we are stuck. Surely it is our policies that are causing and then exacerbating the predicament.

On the grand chessboard; the US and China as the two main players. EVERYON ELSE is a pawn. Todate China is winning as we are driving the pawns directly into China's embracing arms, through our unwinnable wars in Asia. We have spent Billions on unwinable wars. The Chinese have spent nothing. Who is the smart player here. Certainly NOT us.

Perhaps our strategy is wrong

[1929crash]

We are in a war we cannot win. We invaded two contries coz our US master's told us to and now we are stuck. Surely it is our policies that are causing and then exacerbating the predicament.

Perhaps our strategy is wrong

+1

[Krackersdave]

A battle of ideas which isn't that hard to justify....

If you are a woman, a gay man, a free thinker or someone who doesn't relish living a backwards, medieval life then Islam is to be avoided at all costs.

A large proportion of Muslims regard us as Kaffirs- a term which is on a par with Nazi ideas on "sub human" races. This isn't a great start for tolerance and understanding which requires a willingness on both sides.

Wow - my sister is a Lesbian professor of philosophy! How f*ked is she when the first Muslim republic of England is declared!!!

[deeplyblue]

The Question of Pakistan:

Actually, no, the question everyone is asking is why on earth do we need so many Pakistanis in our country? Why? It doesn't make sense. Britain is full, overcrowded, and with diminishing opportunities for our own people. Pakistan is a backwards religion-dominated unstable 3rd world disaster. Britain is an Anglo Saxon island on teh edge of Europe. There is no natural connection between Pakistan and Britain.

Very short history lesson. Until 1947 the lands that we now call Pakistan were, mostly, part of the British Empire, but it was all known as "India" at the time. The British went there over a couple of centuries and took control of the lands, and forcibly made the inhabitants into people ruled by the British. This means that there are still people alive in the former "British India" who were born when it was British, and they are still entitled to call themselves British citizens. The extent to which they, and their children, are entitled to the privileges of British citizenship, including residence in the UK, has changed by UK law over the years.

Duh, obviously never studied recent British history, Britain created Pakistan!

The British helped to create Pakistan. During the independence process for the entirety of what was the "Indian" part of the British Empire, Muhammad Ali Jinnah representing the Muslim inhabitants of the entire sub-continent, successfully campaigned to have a separate Muslim state created apart from the new state of India - this was initially opposed by both the British and by Gandhi and his followers. At the time that state was in 2 parts - East and West Pakistan. East Pakistan is now the separate state of Bangladesh.

Alright then, what exactly do these cuddly savages from the stone age want? Why do they want to blow us to bits?

Apart from getting westerners "out" of muslim lands I've got no idea what these nutters want? BTW, I'm all for leaving Muslim lands.. as long as the Muslims in western lands shut the door on the way out.

The "stone age" epithet is as stupid as it is ignorant - remember that, apart from anything else they have shoulder-mounted rocket launchers. The phrase which is more helpful is "feudal", describing their social structure - in Western terms that corresponds to "medieval". Pakistan is technically a democracy, but - with the exception of a powerful army - is still extensively governed by networks of ruling families and tribal loyalties. Much of the agriculture of Pakistan could also be described this way. Its cities are a different matter entirely.

We cannot simply say, "Let's leave Pakistan to its own devices," tempting though it seems, because (a) it is a place where the broader jihadist movement is strong and getting stronger, and ( there is a genuine danger that the jihadists could push Pakistan as a whole into a much more extreme form of Islam than it professes now - which could, in turn, push it into war with India. Both India and Pakistan are now nuclear powers, and both have strong alliances with the West - another war would be a danger to us all. If the Pakistani army were to be taken over by jihadists (not likely, but now possible), then you would have suicide bombers with genuine nukes, and a real capacity to deliver them long range - say to Bombay or even Tel Aviv.

Why do you think Pakistan is suddenly a hotbed of activity. It along with some of the other countries in the region are known as 'Pipeline-istan'. This is all about resource wars, the bearded ones, in the ungoverned areas of the Pakisatn Frontier will not acquiesce to their Pakistani masters, who in turn have acquiesced to their US masters, hence the conflict.

The North-West frontier peoples have been refusing to do as they are told for millennia. Certainly the British never managed to bring them under the control of the Raj, and the Pakistani government has made these areas technically "semi-autonomous", and in practice entirely self-governing, since the state was founded. In fact even the border between the tribal areas technically in Pakistan and those technically in Afghanistan is more of a international fiction, than a reality of everyday life for the locals.

Some of the "West's" interest in Pakistan is a question of access to the oilfields of central Asia, as is a concern for Afghanistan. Both countries are also now places where terrorists are being trained for export. And Pakistan is a country as risk - see my remarks about jihadists above.

What do the nutters want, and why should we care?

What some of the jihadists want is concerned with the supposed ideals of Al-Qaeda and other jihadist movements. Some of what they are doing is a direct response to western military and political intervention in Afghanistan. Some of it is part of an internal struggle within Pakistan, which gets used as a recruiting ground for jihadists with a broader agenda.

So, some of them want all the western powers out of Afghanistan. Some of them want an end to western influence in Pakistan, variously interpreted. Some want an end to western influence in all of what they regard as Muslim lands, also variously interpreted. Al-Qaeda started from bin Laden's wish to have all Christians out of Saudi Arabia - starting with the western oil firms and the US Army. Now they want to have all Muslim lands to be Muslim-only lands. Sometimes this definition of Muslim lands includes the "return" of the once-Muslim bits of Spain.

But most especially they want the destruction of the state of Israel, and the removal of all the Jews from the Middle East. (In fact many of them would like to see the destruction of all the Jews. In the 1940s the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - think of him as having the status of an Archbishop - congratulated Hitler on his approach to "The Jewish Problem") They believe that if "The West", and especially the US, but also the UK, were to stop helping Israel, then the regional powers could dismantle Israel, and create a Palestinian state which would probably expel the Jews not merely from the occupied territories but from the entire area.

This idea of the destruction of Israel is the driving force behind the attacks in the West. You will hear some generalised rhetoric about wanting the West out of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya (though the Russians would not be keen to hear themselves described as "the West"!), Iraq, Saudi etc etc, but Palestine/Israel is actually the bedrock - the bit that never changes, and is least likely to be achieved. It is a simple, unifying hatred and we can do nothing about it - not in the real world.

This is the fantasy of the jihadist. It is no more unrealistic than that of the Pope, who wants to see all of Asia made Christian in the next 1000 years, or of the Evangelical Christians who want all of the world turned into their brand of Christianty much sooner, preferably according to a timetable which will bring about the end of the world Real Soon Now. And they mean it too. They are not bombing anyone - unless, of course, you remember that George Bush was an evangelical Christian and he was responsible for quite a lot of bombing.

H G Wells described religion as "the measles of humanity" - a childhood disease that killed quite a few, but was survived by most. I think he was on to something - except that he thought we would grow out of it.

db

[ebob]

The Question of Pakistan:

Very short history lesson. Until 1947 the lands that we now call Pakistan were, mostly, part of the British Empire, but it was all known as "India" at the time. The British went there over a couple of centuries and took control of the lands, and forcibly made the inhabitants into people ruled by the British. This means that there are still people alive in the former "British India" who were born when it was British, and they are still entitled to call themselves British citizens. The extent to which they, and their children, are entitled to the privileges of British citizenship, including residence in the UK, has changed by UK law over the years.

The British helped to create Pakistan. During the independence process for the entirety of what was the "Indian" part of the British Empire, Muhammad Ali Jinnah representing the Muslim inhabitants of the entire sub-continent, successfully campaigned to have a separate Muslim state created apart from the new state of India - this was initially opposed by both the British and by Gandhi and his followers. At the time that state was in 2 parts - East and West Pakistan. East Pakistan is now the separate state of Bangladesh.

The "stone age" epithet is as stupid as it is ignorant - remember that, apart from anything else they have shoulder-mounted rocket launchers. The phrase which is more helpful is "feudal", describing their social structure - in Western terms that corresponds to "medieval". Pakistan is technically a democracy, but - with the exception of a powerful army - is still extensively governed by networks of ruling families and tribal loyalties. Much of the agriculture of Pakistan could also be described this way. Its cities are a different matter entirely.

We cannot simply say, "Let's leave Pakistan to its own devices," tempting though it seems, because (a) it is a place where the broader jihadist movement is strong and getting stronger, and ( there is a genuine danger that the jihadists could push Pakistan as a whole into a much more extreme form of Islam than it professes now - which could, in turn, push it into war with India. Both India and Pakistan are now nuclear powers, and both have strong alliances with the West - another war would be a danger to us all. If the Pakistani army were to be taken over by jihadists (not likely, but now possible), then you would have suicide bombers with genuine nukes, and a real capacity to deliver them long range - say to Bombay or even Tel Aviv.

The North-West frontier peoples have been refusing to do as they are told for millennia. Certainly the British never managed to bring them under the control of the Raj, and the Pakistani government has made these areas technically "semi-autonomous", and in practice entirely self-governing, since the state was founded. In fact even the border between the tribal areas technically in Pakistan and those technically in Afghanistan is more of a international fiction, than a reality of everyday life for the locals.

Some of the "West's" interest in Pakistan is a question of access to the oilfields of central Asia, as is a concern for Afghanistan. Both countries are also now places where terrorists are being trained for export. And Pakistan is a country as risk - see my remarks about jihadists above.

What do the nutters want, and why should we care?

What some of the jihadists want is concerned with the supposed ideals of Al-Qaeda and other jihadist movements. Some of what they are doing is a direct response to western military and political intervention in Afghanistan. Some of it is part of an internal struggle within Pakistan, which gets used as a recruiting ground for jihadists with a broader agenda.

So, some of them want all the western powers out of Afghanistan. Some of them want an end to western influence in Pakistan, variously interpreted. Some want an end to western influence in all of what they regard as Muslim lands, also variously interpreted. Al-Qaeda started from bin Laden's wish to have all Christians out of Saudi Arabia - starting with the western oil firms and the US Army. Now they want to have all Muslim lands to be Muslim-only lands. Sometimes this definition of Muslim lands includes the "return" of the once-Muslim bits of Spain.

But most especially they want the destruction of the state of Israel, and the removal of all the Jews from the Middle East. (In fact many of them would like to see the destruction of all the Jews. In the 1940s the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - think of him as having the status of an Archbishop - congratulated Hitler on his approach to "The Jewish Problem") They believe that if "The West", and especially the US, but also the UK, were to stop helping Israel, then the regional powers could dismantle Israel, and create a Palestinian state which would probably expel the Jews not merely from the occupied territories but from the entire area.

This idea of the destruction of Israel is the driving force behind the attacks in the West. You will hear some generalised rhetoric about wanting the West out of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya (though the Russians would not be keen to hear themselves described as "the West"!), Iraq, Saudi etc etc, but Palestine/Israel is actually the bedrock - the bit that never changes, and is least likely to be achieved. It is a simple, unifying hatred and we can do nothing about it - not in the real world.

This is the fantasy of the jihadist. It is no more unrealistic than that of the Pope, who wants to see all of Asia made Christian in the next 1000 years, or of the Evangelical Christians who want all of the world turned into their brand of Christianty much sooner, preferably according to a timetable which will bring about the end of the world Real Soon Now. And they mean it too. They are not bombing anyone - unless, of course, you remember that George Bush was an evangelical Christian and he was responsible for quite a lot of bombing.

H G Wells described religion as "the measles of humanity" - a childhood disease that killed quite a few, but was survived by most. I think he was on to something - except that he thought we would grow out of it.

db

DB, Thankyou for taking the time to post a balanced, informative and accurate piece.

[Krackersdave]

Interesting update - of the 10 "students" arrested (all on Student Visas) only one had ever been near a place of education...

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