brassfarthing

Yeah right. Let me guess. You're now going to say that you're off to have a nice mug of Horlicks before drifting off to that nice Radio 2, while dreaming of how lucky we were to have experienced the 3 Day Week in the 70s, rampant inflation and the economic woes of Thatcherism. Fock off, you pathetic arsewipe. You'll have to do better than this.

Oh shut up you silly boy, you're not even close to sounding convincing. You're hamming it up something rotten, and you've been rumbled. Sorry "dear"!

Why, what's happening next autumn??

Sigh. So you believe in benign old "Aunt Jess" then?

Troll = someone taking the p1ss. ...whether they agree with me or not.

Pitiful troll posting. Shame on you. It reads like some script covered in red marker pen found in the dustbin outside the Radio Four Drama Department. If you have something sensible to say, and want to engage in the debate, then do so. Don't piss me off by this juvenile play-acting. Let me guess: next, you'll start complaining about your lumbago, and you'll be chuckling about the lovely daytrips you used to make to Clacton -- back in the good old days. FFS, if you're going to bullsh1t us, do it convincingly.

Some are, some aren't. The early-retired, globe-trotting, huge-property owner much quoted by some people on this site is a grotesque caricature. Of course some people are in that fortunate position, but many aren't. There are plenty of older people who never bought property and who do eke out a living on just a state pension. I hate the way that people are pigeon-holed on this website - whatever side of the fence they're on.

Crikey, I find myself supporting Marina again - what's the world coming to? I think he's absolutely right to urge people to protest properly. Yeah, holding placards outside Downing St (so to speak) is pretty useless but that's to caricature a decent argument. If the visitors to this site are anything to go by, people who feel disappointed and cut off by HPI would prefer to bellyache to other people similarly fed up, and sit in front of their computers blaming anyone and everyone for their plight, rather than do something constructive about it. "Protesting" means getting organised, creating a credible pressure group and tapping into mainstream politics and the media. It's not that difficult, especially in this age of global and instant communication. Face it - you can't be arsed.

Good post. I agree that BTL demand is a key factor in continuing HPI. It can't be beyond the wit of a government to come up with a financial penalty to dampen this down.

I know that's supposed to sound horrendous, but I really don't care if "the government" knows where I am or the rest of it. Why would they be interested? More fool them. If they really want to know that I went to the cinema tonight, then popped into the pub for a quick beer afterwards, so be it. They're welcome to such fascinating information. The upside of this apparent invasion of privacy is that "they" will also know where known criminals and suspected terrorists are, and what they're up to. Hmm. Yeah OK, I'll accept the ignominy of someone knowing that I prefer shopping at Asda to Waitrose, as long as I benefit from being protected from the real baddies.

A classic HPC contribution to a debate. P1sspoor. Utterly illogical, and missing the point entirely. The story about Clifford Norris allegedly paying money to the detective was an interesting illustration of our attitude to police corruption. That one supposed payment was headline news for 2 or 3 days and filled the airwaves. What does that tell you? You can choose to interpret the news story as 'proof' that the police are taking bribes left, right and centre. Or you can choose to regard its newsworthiness as an illustration that this sort of thing doesn't happen very much. A good example of the exception proving the rule, surely? I'm neither pro- or anti-police. I've known a lot of police officers in my time because I used to work with them - from lowly constables to very high ranks. A lot of them lower down the hierarchy are pretty stupid and their security of tenure makes them lazy and disincentivised. But corrupt? No, not in my experience. You lost me with your other paragraph, sorry. Nothing wrong with a rant, go for it, but you can't expect me to take that seriously as a debating point. Do we live in a paradise, free from corruption and bad judgement? Of course we don't. All I ask is that you try to be balanced, and see the difference between the real world and alarmist fantasy. Your DNA belongs to you, yes. Who said anything else? Your fingerprints belong to you. Your words belong to you. Your blood belongs to you. But if you're suspected of a serious crime, society expects all these things to be examined. It's the legal system we live under. If you've got a better idea let's hear it. If your wife or girlfriend or a mate of yours was murdered, you would want the police to do anything possible to track down the culprit. Thousands of people have been convicted with the help of DNA evidence. Without exception (in my knowledge - I may be wrong), the DNA evidence is used to corroborate other evidence. It's a fantastic development. What really frustrates me is the one-way only view people take on this sort of issue. If the police knocked on my door and said, "we have been tipped off that you committed a murder last week. We need a DNA sample from you", I would want to give that sample right away to prove my innocence. Why do you only think that DNA proves only guilt? It clears many times more people of suspicion than it incriminates. The only people who should resist giving a sample, are those with something to hide.

That is a ridiculous thing to say. You wouldn't know what "a very corrupt police force" was if you tripped over it. The UK police today are cleaner than they have ever been. They may be lazy and over-bureaucratic and not very innovative, but there is very little corruption. Only last week or so there was an allegation that a police officer may have taken a bribe a few years ago from the father of one of the Stephem Lawrence murder suspects. Far from illustrating how corrupt the police are, the massive publicity and sense of shock in the media (and in the Met) about this allegation actually shows how clean the police are. Do you think such an allegation in Buenos Aires would have merited even one inch in the papers? No way. In places like that it's endemic and a way of life. Here? No. Again, wild exaggeration. Re-read the book. You're nuts. Some fair points. I'm totally against Blair's presidential style, and regard it as deeply anti-democratic. People may bemoan Brown as PM but at least he is more traditional in his attitude to the sovereignty of parliament. The current Lebanon crisis shows all that is bad about Blair's style. I don't know who MN is, I'm ashamed to say. Will Google him tomorrow, but I must get to bed right now. Let's hope that THEY don't come for me while I sleep....

But that database could also be used to bring up a name "within an hour or so" of the person who had actually committed the crime! Blimey, talk about always looking on the gloomy side. If DNA technology had existed earlier, think of all the people whose lives would have been saved by their attackers having been caught sooner for earlier offences. (Think Peter Sutcliffe.) There is a positive side to wanting crime to be detected more successfully and more quickly. The more DNA records available to the police, the better.

I am an optimist, it's true, but that doesn't mean I trust everyone in all circumstances. I just think that ID cards are one of those things that people are totally irrational about. Crazy as it might sound, I would like the authorities to know exactly who is in this country at any one time, and where they get their income. We've got so sensitive about civil liberties that such a view sounds really extreme. But why should it be? If 'the government' knew more about who was doing what I would actually feel safer not threatened. As for your final question, a HP crash wouldn't really bother me. I'm in it for the long term so even if prices dropped significantly in the next year or so (big if) I've no doubt they'll recover like they always do. I don't think a recession is likely in the short term. I trust Gordon Brown to do what's necessary.

BS? Very appropriate.

Sigh. Bladerunner and 1984 have a lot to answer for. For heaven's sake, learn to distinguish reality from the stuff you watch at the cinema. 1984 is a great book but er, it isn't real y'know. You're complaining about something that exists only in your imagination.

Plant DNA evidence? You could do that now if you wanted to, just as you could plant a fingerprint or leave other incriminating evidence. Nothing to do with when the DNA sample is taken. Taken at birth, it would mean far fewer people getting away with serious crime. Police have thousands of unsolved crimes with DNA evidence filed away, waiting for someone to commit a burglary or whatever so that they can legally take a sample.

You're being silly. Are you suggesting that some people want ID cards in the hope that..... that they will be personally responsible for awarding IT contracts to..... American conglomerates, which they will do so on the basis of..... how much they will be bribed? Jesus Christ. All the nuts are coming out tonight.

Sorry, I don't follow you. In what sense will I "be a Word document in 10 years time"? What text would be edited and by whom? I don't understand what you mean about having an opinion that "disagrees with the government". Do you mean the Cabinet? The wider party? There are plenty of Labour MPs who disagree with the government for heaven's sake not to mention the Opposition and the media. It's not illegal, and never will be, to disagree with the government. If I disagree with them I will vote against them. No, this is just your Mad Max/computer game/ futuristic Armageddon mindset that a lot of people on here are cripppled by. You can't distinguish reality from absent-minded alarmist fantasy.

What's the larger agenda?

I don't have any problem at all with surveillance. "Big Brother" would have absolutely no interest in me unless I was acting against the greater good of society. I really don't care that someone somewhere could discover what I bought in the supermarket last week. They can do that already. If the authorities knew exactly who was in the country at any one time, and had the ability to work out where everyone was and what they were doing at a given point, perhaps we'd have much less crime. Fine by me. I also think that we should have our DNA recorded at birth or when new immigrants arrive. Another good anti-crime measure. If you could make society more orderly think how much more money would be available for financing socially useful programs which would further diminish the conditions that give rise to criminal behaviour and social unrest. In short, we'd all be happier. ID cards? Bring them on. It's time to start freaking out the troublemakers.

OK

Sorry, I missed this, and it was the thing that irked me most, and continues to irk me about discussing anything on this site. You say that you read what I wrote, and then you say that I have argued that "prices won't correct". I have NOT argued that at all. I think there is every possiblity of a dip/correction call it what you want. The extent of the correction is still unknown - that's my point. When economists or scientists argue about anything, they preface their remarks with "All things being equal....." We have to do the same if we're trying to predict the future based on the past. We also have to say "All things being equal....." And that's the point. They are not equal. The big question is just how unequal the present situation is compared with the last downward move of the housing market. For that reason, it's unknown just how much the new factors will cushion the fall. You argue that they won't cushion them at all. Well OK, that's your view and I respect that. I'm not even saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that I can't see how anyone can comfortably predict how things will go, when, how deep, and how wide. My best guess (as mentioned before) is that the poorest parts of the country, plus the most highly leveraged BTL-ers are very likely to suffer something. Beyond that, who knows?

They were definitely available, though I don't have figures on how many people had them. I personally knew people who were in exactly this position, though it's possible that I heard so much of their woe at the time that it's distorted my perception of how many people were in the same boat. But even if there weren't many that only adds to my point that some things are indeed different. The big question that I don't claim to be able to answer, is just how much of an effect fixed rates will have (see next point). My argument only falls down if IRs go high and stay very high for 5 years or more. That's absolutely correct. My hope is that that doesn't happen. If, after 3 or 4 years of my fixed rate deal, I find that IRs are 8% or something crazy, I will have to come up with a plan to deal with it, simple as that. What I won't do is wring my hands and try to fins someone else to blame. Yes, but people have to take responsibility for their own actions. You can't buy a houise on impulse. The process takes a minimum of about 6 weeks usually, and often very much longer (9 months in my case when I last bought). People have ample opportunity to do the sums and check their figures. Personally I don't think that recent or even current buyers in London and the SE will have too much to worry about in the long term but it does surprise me that property in the north has gone so mad. That's where most of the pain will come. I don't think "BTLs will leave the market", though it does seem obvious that they will be the first to suffer and some will go to the wall. People have been BTL-ing for decades. It's just got much more popular recently. Whether "fear and panic" will drive the market down, I don't know and nor do you. I understand that you want it to happen, but that isn't the same thing. It may happen; it may not.