Guest_FaFa!_* Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) No FaFa, that is not the best location for me. You are absolutely right. And I'm very sorry if I was not clear enough for you. What I mean is that that plot is an indication, an example, of the prices you find there. And it confirms all the other information and data we all have about properties in Germany. That's all. Similar plots here in England Britain, even in the North, would cost much, much more. And my argument is that our prices are much higher because we had under-regulated mortgages and over-regulated planning. We need to change both: regulate mortgages and liberalise planning. An an indication, an example, of the prices you find there it is about as much use me arguing that prices in the UK are dirt cheap, citing this as an example. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-22922610.html Furthermore, I am not sure you would find a plot in the UK as it looks like a green field site - a big no no. So the comparison doesn't work. To my mind, A meaningful comparison would be finding a plot in an urban area, in an area of Germany comparable to that of the UK in terms of its importance economically and look at the price differential. That would reinforce your argument much better than a two minute search on Rightmove. I'd be interested in seeing the data and information you have on property in Germany. As far as I can see your data appears to be mainly anecdotal. Edited June 8, 2012 by FaFa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 To my mind, A meaningful comparison would be finding a plot in an urban area, in an area of Germany comparable to that of the UK in terms of its importance economically and look at the price differential. +1 Now that would be interesting.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tired of Waiting Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 An an indication, an example, of the prices you find there it is about as much use me arguing that prices in the UK are dirt cheap, citing this as an example. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-22922610.html Furthermore, I am not sure you would find a plot in the UK as it looks like a green field site - a big no no. So the comparison doesn't work. To my mind, A meaningful comparison would be finding a plot in an urban area, in an area of Germany comparable to that of the UK in terms of its importance economically and look at the price differential. That would reinforce your argument much better than a two minute search on Rightmove. I'd be interested in seeing the data and information you have on property in Germany. As far as I can see your data appears to be mainly anecdotal. I'm very surprised you didn't know about Germany's property prices - famously stable. And there is a very broad consensus that the main reasons are controlled mortgages, and liberal planning. Here we have been doing exactly the opposite. See the result above, very "graphically". That example of plot in Germany was not in some poor area of former east Germany, but between Frankfurt and Luxembourg, on the outskirts of a very nice village, in an very nice region (yes, I did some research before posting, of course). Building costs table: http://www.homebuilding.co.uk/system/files/Buildcosts_May2012.pdf And regarding: (...) I am not sure you would find a plot in the UK as it looks like a green field site - a big no no. So the comparison doesn't work. (...) But that is exactly my point! I am arguing here that we should have a more liberal planning policy! Like Germany does! Then we would have many more plots available, allowing self-builders, and even small building companies to increase the supply of houses! Look, sorry, but frankly, I really can't understand how on earth you can disagree with this. It's really, really mind boggling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_FaFa!_* Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 As I am arguing with you on two separate but similar threads I am starting to lose the thread of the argument. Certainly I feel we are now entering dialogue of the deaf territory. 1. I don't dispute that German house prices overall are more stable than the UK's and I am willing to believe they are cheaper. Nevertheless one would have to compare prices against local income to avoid housing looking cheap due to FX movements. I am not sure the diagrams posted show this. 2. I assume you realise that the top diagram you have posted shows HPI over time, but does not show the starting point for prices. For example the unwitting could look at the graph supplied and think that Japan's house prices are a third of the UK's. Another issue would be that the prices in 1970s might be completely different across countries. Nevertheless I am willing to believe the average house price in other countries is cheaper. 3. You appear to believe that having a more liberal housing policy would lower prices and enable affordable self-build for the average person. I am not sure you have shown this to be the case. To prove this, you would need to show the cost of self-build internationally, rather than the costing of purchasing a house. I am reasonably sure of my ground when I state that in Japan for example second hand housing is much cheaper than self-build. 4. Therefore I think the flaw in your argument is not showing the full cost of a self build in Germany or other country (land, building cost, legal fees etc) and comparing that to the UK. Simply showing a £20k plot or wotnot does not display this - there maybe additional costs levied in Germany that are not in the UK. 5. The problem with showing house prices overall is that self-builds could be eye wateringly expensive internationally but second hand housing dirt cheap. Surfing the Japanese equivalents of Rightmove in the past this was the impression I got (my Japanese is not great, but good enough to extract the info I need) which was reinforced when talking about this with Mrs Fafa. My in-laws self built - it was not cheap, despite the system being more set up for self-build in Japan. I hope it is now clear to you why I disagree. I don't so much disagree as feel your points are not proven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tired of Waiting Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 As I am arguing with you on two separate but similar threads I am starting to lose the thread of the argument. (...) Yes, I think we are going off topic in this thread, and since we are talking about self-building, that the other thread is the more appropriated place for it. So, if you don't mind, I'll copy your post above, paste it there, and reply there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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