Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 That is the nub of my problem. What? Well I know but I hate giving answers out. Heres a thought - why not go and check with a load of people what they actually consume and use, or just observe those around you? In the meantime until I can come up with something better its electronic digits, in savings institutions and companies and a little bit of gold and silver. okidoki - I didn't say don't do that, I just asked for honesty in the approach and this you have done. Which is rather awesome of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Gold currently isn't a fiat currency. It is according to the current rule book ( that I suspect you still have not revised ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 It is according to the current rule book ( that I suspect you still have not revised ) It ain't a fiat currency at the level we are talking about, as you well know. Still, prove me wrong and go pay your council tax with some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 It ain't a fiat currency at the level we are talking about, as you well know. I was not aware of a stated level. Still, prove me wrong and go pay your council tax with some. It is unclear to me how paying council tax would prove you wrong. What if I bought your house with some ? Would you be agreeable to such a transaction ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I was not aware of a stated level. There wasn't one. Welcome to the world of context. It is unclear to me how paying council tax would prove you wrong. it would prove gold was fiat - demanded, decreed for the average bod. What if I bought your house with some ? Would you be agreeable to such a transaction ? Sure, but that's not fiat. I ain't forcing you to buy my house or pointing guns at you to make you use gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 it would prove gold was fiat - demanded, decreed for the average bod. If the average bod chose to pay with fiat gold, the council have a legal obligation to accept. Sure, but that's not fiat. I ain't forcing you to buy my house or pointing guns at you to make you use gold. Playing by the rules can be to your advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 If the average bod chose to pay with fiat gold, the council have a legal obligation to accept. They have a legal obligation to accept you have transferred deeds, they have no obligation to accept gold. Playing by the rules can be to your advantage. Of course it can. This doesn't concern me here, though it does in my every day life. Here I am out for accuracy in fact as it is a debating forum. That one has to put up with loonies and their arbitary nonsense elsewhere and can work this to ones advantage realyl is irrevelent. In fact, I can think of nothing less likely to change things in a positive direction for the loonies than the rational benefiting from that lunacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 They have a legal obligation to accept you have transferred deeds, they have no obligation to accept gold. They have an obligation to accept fiat gold (as defined in the rule book). In fact, I can think of nothing less likely to change things in a positive direction for the loonies than the rational benefiting from that lunacy. Don't you consider "negative lunacy" a good thing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 They have an obligation to accept fiat gold (as defined in the rule book). Nom, they don't. They have a legal obligation to recognise that you traded with someone else for something in gold. They don't have to accept gold themselves. Don't you consider "negative lunacy" a good thing ? No. It's enabling. Neccessary when people are so violent and crazed, but enabling nontheless. You wouldn't tell a 14th century religious loon there is no god, and you wouldn't tell a border guard there are no countires either and for the same reasons - fear of getting attacked. But it doesn't help them to leave them crazy, nor does it improve the overall situation for yourself to just rip them off because then you are stuck with their fantasies and the limits that come with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Nom, they don't. They have a legal obligation to recognise that you traded with someone else for something in gold. They don't have to accept gold themselves. The rule book specifically states that they have to accept fiat gold. But it doesn't help them to leave them crazy, nor does it improve the overall situation for yourself to just rip them off because then you are stuck with their fantasies and the limits that come with them. Some may see it as rip off avoidance rather than ripping off. In a similar way you have often said here that self defence is not an attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 The rule book specifically states that they have to accept fiat gold. not in the scenario you have outlined. if you know of another please advance it though. Some may see it as rip off avoidance rather than ripping off. In a similar way you have often said here that self defence is not an attack. Yes, of course. That still doesn't make it anything other than a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 not in the scenario you have outlined. if you know of another please advance it though. I thought we were discussing your outlined scenario of paying a council tax demand ? If so, then there is a legal obligation for the council to accept payment in fiat gold from the person who is paying (if that person elects to pay in that manner). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I thought we were discussing your outlined scenario of paying a council tax demand ? Yes, indeedy. If so, then there is a legal obligation for the council to accept payment in fiat gold from the person who is paying (if that person elects to pay in that manner). You'll get told to go away and convert it into cash or bank credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 You'll get told to go away and convert it into cash or bank credit. Perhaps at the lowest level. Once the (council) lawyers are involved, I think not. They would risk giving you a free ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Perhaps at the lowest level. Once the (council) lawyers are involved, I think not. They would risk giving you a free ride. They will take it off you and swap it into cash if you drag your feet, in the same way as they will take your TV or whatever. They do not accept it as payment in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 They do not accept it as payment in and of itself. I suspect you are speculating and not reiterating council policy so I do not think we will ever know in reality. The current rules say they have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I suspect you are speculating and not reiterating council policy so I do not think we will ever know in reality. The current rules say they have to. They'll take your goods and transfer it into cash, which will cancel your debt. They do not accept it as payment in and of itself as a first port of call - you have to be in arrears and be at the walk in possession stage. At which point gold is just like your TV or toaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 They'll take your goods and transfer it into cash, which will cancel your debt. They do not accept it as payment in and of itself as a first port of call - you have to be in arrears and be at the walk in possession stage. At which point gold is just like your TV or toaster. The rules say they have to. If they did not accept at the first port of call and you did nothing more then the summons would most probably arrive for non payment. If you went into court and pointed out the rules to the decision maker(s) it would be clear that the rules say they are obligated to accept fiat gold. At that point (or by that point) I strongly suspect their legal team would be grabbing that fiat gold out of your grubby mitts. If they refused to accept it in court, the rules say the debt is cancelled. No bailiffs involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 The rules say they have to. If they did not accept at the first port of call and you did nothing more then the summons would most probably arrive for non payment. If you went into court and pointed out the rules to the decision maker(s) it would be clear that the rules say they are obligated to accept fiat gold. At that point (or by that point) I strongly suspect their legal team would be grabbing that fiat gold out of your grubby mitts. If they refused to accept it in court, the rules say the debt is cancelled. No bailiffs involved. Which still doesn't mean it's fiat money. Think about it. But go on then, which rule is it you are invoking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Which still doesn't mean it's fiat money. Think about it. But go on then, which rule is it you are invoking? Legal tender laws as they currently stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Legal tender laws as they currently stand. Linky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Linky? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24/section/2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24/section/2 Ah no. Gold. Not coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Ah no. Gold. Not coins. Fiat gold. A little research would reveal it is close to ubiquitous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stay Beautiful Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 All i am doing is outlining the difference between investment and consumption. yes, most of what we do is concumption and that's fine - but consumption is always a loss. You make a cake (productivity) you eat a cake (consumption, loss.) Because in the betting scenario the action of betting comes at a cost in and of itself. That's the loss. And none of them would take it off you because they thought gold was valuable to them. They would almost all take it of you well aware that somewhere is someone else who will take it off them at some point. That is, gold has no value to them. Quite right. And you'll notice in the absence of a gold standard, gold isn't money. Even when there was a gold standard, most won't have seen much gold anyway - it's silver, copper and barter for the average folks. Ok, so you belive all consumption is a loss. Sounds very Manic Street Preachers to me, i can imagine it written on a wall in a video "CONSUMPTION IS LOSS". The betting scenario, "the action of betting comes at a cost in and of itself". I havent a clue what that means. The gold scenario i disagree with as, you say that the gold would only be taken off me as they would be aware that it would be valuable to someone else? Then by default the person taking it off me has percieved that the gold has value and is valuable to themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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