MonkeyNuts Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/business/26nocera.html :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Woods? Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/business/26nocera.html :angry: In two minds about this. On the one hand, all those who took out liar loans should be punished for not taking contracts worth 100s of thousands of dollars seriously. On the other hand, it is breathtaking how much effort the IRS will go to imprison a small fry who may or may not have committed a crime, and yet the real criminals get away with wealth in 9 or 10 digits. By all accounts, there are millions in the US who have committed the same crime as this guy, or worse, and yet the heads of Countrywide and other banks are still free to play golf at the club. Never stick your head above the parapet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Sadman Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Either they get done for fraud, or tax evasion. One of the two. Borrowing money you have no realistic way of paying back is little different to theft IMO. Obviously so many of them id rather see the brokers who encouraged people to lie behind bars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyNuts Posted March 26, 2011 Author Share Posted March 26, 2011 Borrowing money you have no realistic way of paying back is little different to theft IMO. Its not really theft. The previous owner is the guy who gets the money. The bank can still get back the house to repay the loan. If it has fallen in value then its the banks fault for not demanding a big enough deposit up front, especially as this was a self cert loan. At worst the bank should suffer legal costs and few months missed interest payments. Its fraud against the lenders for sure, but i dont see how it can be called theft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Either they get done for fraud, or tax evasion. One of the two. Borrowing money you have no realistic way of paying back is little different to theft IMO. Obviously so many of them id rather see the brokers who encouraged people to lie behind bars. you need to read the article. the first loan showed an income of $15000 per month...his accountant confirmed his earnings for the year @ $180,000...but that wasnt earned monthly, but in chunks. The second loan appeared to have a false signature according to the prosecution handwriting witness...this sounds like a vindictive setup...this guy must have seriously upset someone. The broker who did the fortune got a lower sentence for being a witness for the prosecution. americans must be wondering what is happening to their country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 If you read the article (yes, expecting a lot - I know ) it is suggested that he didn't actually lie on his mortgage application. He had 2 properties and one was secured with a mortgage based on a monthly income of $15k, which the guy actually had according to his accountant! The other appears to be have forged by his mortgage broker... It sounds a lot like someone in the US IRS took a dislike to the poor guy and persecuted him. It is quite simply a fully documented example of how government power is being grossly misused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 you need to read the article. the first loan showed an income of $15000 per month...his accountant confirmed his earnings for the year @ $180,000...but that wasnt earned monthly, but in chunks. The second loan appeared to have a false signature according to the prosecution handwriting witness...this sounds like a vindictive setup...this guy must have seriously upset someone. The broker who did the fortune got a lower sentence for being a witness for the prosecution. americans must be wondering what is happening to their country. You beat me to it while I was reading the article! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 You beat me to it while I was reading the article! amazing...at least we both got the same message from the article....yet as the reporter points out, the big fish in this fraud were able to avoid criminal charges and pay a penalty and walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Its not really theft. The previous owner is the guy who gets the money. The bank can still get back the house to repay the loan. If it has fallen in value then its the banks fault for not demanding a big enough deposit up front, especially as this was a self cert loan. At worst the bank should suffer legal costs and few months missed interest payments. Its fraud against the lenders for sure, but i dont see how it can be called theft. Yes, but it was lots of people like him who pushed up property prices, and made it impossible for honest people like us on above-average earnings to afford even the cheapest properties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Yes, but it was lots of people like him who pushed up property prices, and made it impossible for honest people like us on above-average earnings to afford even the cheapest properties. he was innocent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 “The Department of Justice has made prosecuting financial crimes, including mortgage fraud, a high priority,” ... That's definitely a 5 remark (at least). Truly farcical, utterly farcical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 he was innocent. ...but found guilty... Charlie Engle wasn’t a seller of bad mortgages. He was a borrower. And the “mortgage fraud” for which he was prosecuted was something that literally millions of Americans did during the subprime bubble. Supposedly, he lied on two liar loans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 “Being the special agent that I am, I was wondering, how does a guy train for this because most people have to work from nine to five and it’s very difficult to train for this part-time.” (He also told the grand jurors that sometimes, when he sees somebody driving a Ferrari, he’ll check to see if they make enough money to afford it. When I called Mr. Nordlander and others at the I.R.S. to ask whether this was an appropriate way to choose subjects for criminal tax investigations, my questions were met with a stone wall of silence.) Does he ever go down to the marinas and ask "where are the customers yachts". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caparn Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 If they imprisoned people in the UK for overstating their income on self certified mortgages they would have to put over 1 million people in prison. What they should do is find out who these people are and give them a criminal record for fraud and fine them 5% of the value of the fraud which could go to help pay for the loss to the building society when they have repossess houses from other fraudulent self certified mortgage holders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcellar Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 If they imprisoned people in the UK for overstating their income on self certified mortgages they would have to put over 1 million people in prison. What they should do is find out who these people are and give them a criminal record for fraud and fine them 5% of the value of the fraud which could go to help pay for the loss to the building society when they have repossess houses from other fraudulent self certified mortgage holders. That's actually rather sensible. Criminal record to warn the rest of us about them and a financial penalty to go towards the losses incurred. I like it. No one can complain can they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timak Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Either they get done for fraud, or tax evasion. One of the two. Borrowing money you have no realistic way of paying back is little different to theft IMO. In the olden days there used to be people called bankers who would lend money to people and if they failed to repay the bank would show a loss and the banker would have failed at their job. Then they invented ways of taking the loans and selling them on and suddenly it mattered not a jot as to whether they repaid or not once it was off the banks books. But apparently regulating such things is some sort of evil socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corevalue Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 It looks like a lot of people are posting here without reading the article. The guy was pursued by an over-zealous tax official, who finding no tax evasion, decided to lay a "honey trap". Even then, his conviction seems highly dubious. As for the loans themselves, on one of them Mr. Engle claimed an income of $15,000 a month. As it turns out, his total income in 2005, according to his accountant, was $180,000, which amounts to ... hmmm ...$15,000 a month, though of course Mr. Engle didn’t have the kind of job that generated monthly income. (In addition to real estate speculation, Mr. Engle gave motivational speeches and earned around $50,000 a year as a producer on the hit show “Extreme Makeover: Home Edition.”) The monthly income listed on the second loan was $32,500, an obviously absurd amount, especially since the loan itself was for only $300,000. It was a refinance of a property Mr. Engle already owned, allowing him to pull out $80,000 of the $215,000 in equity he had in the property. Mr. Engle claims that he never saw that $32,500 claim and never signed the papers. Indeed, a handwriting analysis conducted by the government raised the distinct possibility that Mr. Engle’s signature and his initials in several places in the mortgage documents had been forged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 It looks like a lot of people are posting here without reading the article. The guy was pursued by an over-zealous tax official, who finding no tax evasion, decided to lay a "honey trap". Even then, his conviction seems highly dubious. You're forgetting the most important point of all; those at the top of these organisations giving out the liar loans - many of whom who have admitted they knew the loans were unlikely to be repaid - aren't facing jail, or even anything remotely like it. So if you commit fraud on a grand scale, there is nothing to fear, but those who many have committed it on a minuscule scale are - selectively - prosecuted. Even if, as in this case, the evidence is flimsy to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothemaths Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 amazing...at least we both got the same message from the article....yet as the reporter points out, the big fish in this fraud were able to avoid criminal charges and pay a penalty and walk. Yes, the fact that the big fish got a way with only slaps on the wrists is obscene. I hope that this sort of stuff that will get revisited in the future and justice is finally done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caparn Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) Yes, the fact that the big fish got a way with only slaps on the wrists is obscene. I hope that this sort of stuff that will get revisited in the future and justice is finally done. I look at it a bit like shoplifting. If someone owns a shop and they lay stuff out so it's really easy to steal and then someone comes in and shoplifts. Who is to blame? 1. The shop (mortgage lender) for laying out stuff so that it's easy to steal? 2. The shoplifter (borrower) for stealing the goods from the shop. In my view the are both to blame but it's the shoplifter who should be prosecuted the most. Edited March 27, 2011 by caparn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I look at it a bit like shoplifting. If someone owns a shop and they lay stuff out so it's really easy to steal and then someone comes in and shoplifts. Who is to blame? 1. The shop (mortgage lender) for laying out stuff so that it's easy to steal? 2. The shoplifter (borrower) for stealing the goods from the shop. In my view the are both to blame but it's the shoplifter who should be prosecuted the most. The mortgage lender doesn't actually have any goods though, what he's got is a mock up shop with pictures of goods but nothing actually to trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightytharg Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Mr. Engle gave motivational speeches and earned around $50,000 a year as a producer on the hit show “Extreme Makeover: Home Edition.” I could forgive the guy for being a lying, cheating, drug addict, but he was also a property pornographer! They should throw away the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caparn Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 The mortgage lender doesn't actually have any goods though, what he's got is a mock up shop with pictures of goods but nothing actually to trade. They trade money, on the condition the property does not exceed 85% of the value of the loan and that the buyer earns enough to pay the loan back. What happened was that people saw house prices were increasing at a rapid rate and figured they would use someone else's money to bet on them going up some more. It's a bit like someone borrowing money to bet on a tennis match. If the person they bet on wins the match they can pay the person they borrowed the money from their money back. If the person they bet on loses the match then they have no way of paying back the money they borrowed. But having lied about their ability to pay back the money they have committed fraud. Unfortunately, for a lot of these people who overstated their income the price of the property has dropped but the Bank of England has kept rates at a historically low level so most of them can still afford to make monthly payments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 They trade money, Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caparn Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Nope. Oh yes it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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