sleepless Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Suppose that every week, ten men go out for dinner and all eat the exact same meal. The bill for all ten comes to £100. They decided to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so they divided the bill like this: The first four men — those with the lowest income — would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1, the sixth £3, the seventh £7, the eighth £12, the ninth £18, and the tenth man — the one with the highest income — would pay £59. One day, the owner gave them a discount (in tax language, a tax cut). “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by £20.” So now dinner for the ten only cost £80.00. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his “fair share”? The six men realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in £2, the seventh paid £5, the eighth paid £9, the ninth paid £12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of £52 instead of his earlier £59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20,” declared the sixth man, then, pointing to the tenth. “But he got £7”. “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man, “I only saved £1, too. It’s unfair that he got seven times more than me!” ”That’s true!” shouted the seventh man, “Why should he get £7 back when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!” The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn’t show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were £52 short of paying the bill! And that, in a nutshell, is how the current income tax system works. ================================================================================ Regards DaveC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepless Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 Suppose that every week, ten men go out for dinner and all eat the exact same meal. The bill for all ten comes to £100. They decided to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so they divided the bill like this: The first four men — those with the lowest income — would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1, the sixth £3, the seventh £7, the eighth £12, the ninth £18, and the tenth man — the one with the highest income — would pay £59. One day, the owner gave them a discount (in tax language, a tax cut). “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by £20.” So now dinner for the ten only cost £80.00. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his “fair share”? The six men realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in £2, the seventh paid £5, the eighth paid £9, the ninth paid £12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of £52 instead of his earlier £59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20,” declared the sixth man, then, pointing to the tenth. “But he got £7”. “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man, “I only saved £1, too. It’s unfair that he got seven times more than me!” ”That’s true!” shouted the seventh man, “Why should he get £7 back when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!” The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn’t show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were £52 short of paying the bill! And that, in a nutshell, is how the current income tax system works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57percent Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 What if the tenth man would have made nothing and lost his year if hadn't been bailed out by the restaurant owner and otherwise the food bill would have been £5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhDinBubbles Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Suppose that every week, ten men go out for dinner and all eat the exact same meal. The bill for all ten comes to £100. They decided to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so they divided the bill like this: The first four men — those with the lowest income — would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1, the sixth £3, the seventh £7, the eighth £12, the ninth £18, and the tenth man — the one with the highest income — would pay £59. One day, the owner gave them a discount (in tax language, a tax cut). “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by £20.” So now dinner for the ten only cost £80.00. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his “fair share”? The six men realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in £2, the seventh paid £5, the eighth paid £9, the ninth paid £12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of £52 instead of his earlier £59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20,” declared the sixth man, then, pointing to the tenth. “But he got £7”. “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man, “I only saved £1, too. It’s unfair that he got seven times more than me!” ”That’s true!” shouted the seventh man, “Why should he get £7 back when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!” The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn’t show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were £52 short of paying the bill! And that, in a nutshell, is how the current income tax system works. In this Country there is a 95% probability that the wealthiest man didn't earn his wealth, therefore the tax system should redress the balance by punishing the unproductive leech - he could be a banker that made his money by lending huge sums of money to the others who had little choice but to borrow because it was the only way to pay for a scarce asset - but the greedy swine lent too much and then went bust, but then got the others to bail him out and still didn't expect to pay his way. Unfortunately, income tax is a bit blunt and will hit the small percentage of rich folk that actually who have actually contributed to the wealth of the nation. Land and banking should therefore be taxed heavily - not income. At least land is productive; banking is just a utility that can be performed by a simple computer program. The fact is that today in this Country, the real wealth producers are the ones going out to dinner and trying to pay for it with peanuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbital Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I like the idea of a flat rate system, cut all the bureaucracy, everyone just pays a flat rate of income tax. The savings made from scrapping the entire tax system and the stimulation achieved from the reduced rate makes us all better off. We all pay the same rate, so low income people pay a small amount and large income people pay a large amount. Seems fair. Didn't the lib dems put this idea forward. I wonder if the sums add up though. Nice post though, people do seem to forget that the wealthy pay more tax in a year than some of us do in a lifetime! They are often (but not always !) the people who make the wheels go round, the people we want to encourage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool's Gold Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Suppose that every week, ten men go out for dinner and all eat the exact same meal. The bill for all ten comes to £100. They decided to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so they divided the bill like this: The first four men — those with the lowest income — would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1, the sixth £3, the seventh £7, the eighth £12, the ninth £18, and the tenth man — the one with the highest income — would pay £59. One day, the owner gave them a discount (in tax language, a tax cut). "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by £20." So now dinner for the ten only cost £80.00. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share"? The six men realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in £2, the seventh paid £5, the eighth paid £9, the ninth paid £12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of £52 instead of his earlier £59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got £1 out of the £20," declared the sixth man, then, pointing to the tenth. "But he got £7". "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved £1, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "Why should he get £7 back when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were £52 short of paying the bill! And that, in a nutshell, is how the current income tax system works. Didn't the poorest get a free dinner ? And more poor got a free dinner after the reduction ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57percent Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I'm a big fan of flat tax. Include ENI in wages, then combine Tax, NI and ENI to get one honest figure. Increase allowance to about 10-12k. Then work out what flat tax is required to equal the previous take (I'd suggest this is around 50-55%, but you would be paid 12.8% more) Doesn't matter where you get your money from, everyone pays it. Income, Divd, capital gains etc. Divd would replace corp tax and be taxed at source. Capital gains can have some kind of inflation taken off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erranta Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 And that, in a nutshell, is how the current income tax system works. ================================================================================ Regards DaveC The resturant owner will eventually go bust. The whole system deflates. People start exchanging real goods as bartering. ie the men all bring in a rabbit or fowl in exchange for a scrummy dinner. No Middlemen/shareholders SKIMMING off your hard work(which is why the super rich make sure they are in charge of most of the farming land)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 The resturant owner will eventually go bust. The whole system deflates. People start exchanging real goods as bartering. ie the men all bring in a rabbit or fowl in exchange for a scrummy dinner. No Middlemen/shareholders SKIMMING off your hard work(which is why the super rich make sure they are in charge of most of the farming land)! exactly - who needs the 10th man - ungrateful jerk. what kind of sicko has such extreme wealth in a world of such suffering - guillotine the lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Suppose that every week, ten men go out for dinner and all eat the exact same meal. The bill for all ten comes to £100. They decided to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so they divided the bill like this: The first four men — those with the lowest income — would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1, the sixth £3, the seventh £7, the eighth £12, the ninth £18, and the tenth man — the one with the highest income — would pay £59. One day, the owner gave them a discount (in tax language, a tax cut). “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by £20.” So now dinner for the ten only cost £80.00. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his “fair share”? The six men realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in £2, the seventh paid £5, the eighth paid £9, the ninth paid £12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of £52 instead of his earlier £59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20,” declared the sixth man, then, pointing to the tenth. “But he got £7”. “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man, “I only saved £1, too. It’s unfair that he got seven times more than me!” ”That’s true!” shouted the seventh man, “Why should he get £7 back when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!” The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn’t show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were £52 short of paying the bill! And that, in a nutshell, is how the current income tax system works. ================================================================================ Regards DaveC another option is to kill the 10th man - redistribute his wealth and all eat for free from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erranta Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) exactly - who needs the 10th man - ungrateful jerk. what kind of sicko has such extreme wealth in a world of such suffering - guillotine the lot How dare you - I put forward the simple solution and i'm a "jerk" "guillotine the lot" - didn't harm the French! Edited December 7, 2009 by erranta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babesagainstmachines Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 You forgot to mention that the rich man is the other men's landlord, and they pay him 1/3rd of their wages every month for a roof over their heads due to the unfair distribution of property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babesagainstmachines Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 You forgot to mention that the rich man is the other men's employer, and he charges 100% markup on their labour simply due to having access to capital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 How dare you - I put forward the simple solution and i'm a "jerk" sorry - this was not intended as an insult to you - until now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porca misèria Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 You forgot to mention that the rich man is the other men's landlord, and they pay him 1/3rd of their wages every month for a roof over their heads due to the unfair distribution of property. Nope, the landlord is the one with wealth, not the one with income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babesagainstmachines Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Nope, the landlord is the one with wealth, not the one with income. Ok, he bought in 1997 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Nope, the landlord is the one with wealth, not the one with income. the two are usually well correlated (except truly incompetent aristocrats) - regardless the guillotine has his name on it. hopefully all the rich people will go to places like Monaco and Andorra, then we can just put up barbed wire fences and keep them there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinceBalls Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 And that, in a nutshell, is how the current income tax system works. No it isn't, life isn't about sitting around eating dinner together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 No it isn't, life isn't about sitting around eating dinner together. it used to be - along time ago. take a village structure - the top people felt the concerns of the poor too - a lot of the issues now are probably because people do not have the same risks and benefits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erranta Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 sorry - this was not intended as an insult to you - until now Huh? I am not a bum. I'm a jerk. I once had wealth, power, and the love of a beautiful woman. Now I only have two things: my friends and... uh... my thermos. Huh? My story? Okay. It was never easy for me. I was born a poor black child. I remember the days, sittin' on the porch with my family, singin' and dancin' down in Mississippi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erranta Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 sorry - this was not intended as an insult to you - until now It's my favourite Steve Martin film! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny dalglish Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Suppose that every week, ten men go out for dinner and all eat the exact same meal. The bill for all ten comes to £100. They decided to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so they divided the bill like this: The first four men — those with the lowest income — would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1, the sixth £3, the seventh £7, the eighth £12, the ninth £18, and the tenth man — the one with the highest income — would pay £59. One day, the owner gave them a discount (in tax language, a tax cut). “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by £20.” So now dinner for the ten only cost £80.00. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his “fair share”? The six men realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in £2, the seventh paid £5, the eighth paid £9, the ninth paid £12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of £52 instead of his earlier £59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20,” declared the sixth man, then, pointing to the tenth. “But he got £7”. “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man, “I only saved £1, too. It’s unfair that he got seven times more than me!” ”That’s true!” shouted the seventh man, “Why should he get £7 back when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!” The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn’t show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were £52 short of paying the bill! And that, in a nutshell, is how the current income tax system works. Fridge magnet, folksy wisdom, but utter tripe of course. In reality the 10th man, wouldn't pay either, he would eat but then not have to pay because his wealth was held off shore. Carry on believing if you like that it is the poorest in our society that have brought the country to it's knees. No doubt the people that have constructed these straw men, will be very happy to hear you verbalise the thought processes you suppose to be your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) In the real world it would be those around the middle -- 5, 6 and 7 perhaps -- who paid most, and they won't stop because they get beaten up and driven out of the group, they'll stop because it's just not worth it any more. Let's not forget that the diners are not fully paying for their meal either, their nourishment depends on the willingness of the kitchen staff to keep lending to them... Edited December 7, 2009 by huw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Twin Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 the two are usually well correlated (except truly incompetent aristocrats) - regardless the guillotine has his name on it. hopefully all the rich people will go to places like Monaco and Andorra, then we can just put up barbed wire fences and keep them there. What is so wrong with being rich? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REP013 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Huh? I am not a bum. I'm a jerk. I once had wealth, power, and the love of a beautiful woman. Now I only have two things: my friends and... uh... my thermos. Huh? My story? Okay. It was never easy for me. I was born a poor black child. I remember the days, sittin' on the porch with my family, singin' and dancin' down in Mississippi Steve Martin classic. Thanks for the reminder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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