Anybody Know Anthing About Electrics?

[Telometer]

My understanding of Part P is any work you undertake on a domestic installation if adding to

an exsisting circuit or installing a new circuit does require certification

A minor works certificate if adding a circuit

If adding to an exsisting circuit this becomes your responsibilty and the installation should have a

periodic inspection.

That's what domestic sparks would like to tell us it means. But it doesn't. It is not that universal.

http://www.abletek.co.uk/partp_electrical_...not_covered.php

(And it leaves the ironic position that installation of supplementary bonding is notifiable, thus if you don't instal it, and leave the setup more dangerous, you're not breaking the law...)

You can issue a test certificate if you are not Part P but it will have to be signed off by someone who is

Part P registered for it to mean anything.

But what do you think a test certificate ever means???! There is no requirement for a PIR other than that of competency. Clearly C&G, or Part P is evidence indicating competency.

NICEIC would like you to think they are the only authority and that they have it all stitched up for their members. They are not, and they have not.

[Maddog21]

That's what domestic sparks would like to tell us it means. But it doesn't. It is not that universal.

http://www.abletek.co.uk/partp_electrical_...not_covered.php

(And it leaves the ironic position that installation of supplementary bonding is notifiable, thus if you don't instal it, and leave the setup more dangerous, you're not breaking the law...)

But what do you think a test certificate ever means???! There is no requirement for a PIR other than that of competency. Clearly C&G, or Part P is evidence indicating competency.

NICEIC would like you to think they are the only authority and that they have it all stitched up for their members. They are not, and they have not.

Before I go into one i would just like to point out I have been a sparks for 20 years

I'am no fan of Part P or the NICIEC

Part P could have worked but as usual the government have made a complete balls up of

it and has just added to the confusion.

A PIR, periodic inspection report

If it is "notifiable" work then yes i do

By "test cert" I mean every circuit you add needs to be tested

this included a r1+r2

zs earth loop impedance

polarity

insulation resistance test

RCD operating times

I could go on

This is all recorded on a test sheet be it a minor works(adding a circuit) or a periodic inspection if you change board

or alter exsisting circuits (notifiable work) not changing a light fitting etc.

to self-certify you have to be part p registered you do this by joining one of the bodies

NICEIC, ECA , NAPPIT etc.

If you do not belong to one of these organisations and you work on domestic properties

ie. fuse board change , extension you must notify the local authority and they will send

someone round at your cost to certify the installations has met PART P requirements

GET IT?

Edited August 5, 2009 by Maddog21

[Maddog21]

That's what domestic sparks would like to tell us it means. But it doesn't. It is not that universal.

http://www.abletek.co.uk/partp_electrical_...not_covered.php

(And it leaves the ironic position that installation of supplementary bonding is notifiable, thus if you don't instal it, and leave the setup more dangerous, you're not breaking the law...)

But what do you think a test certificate ever means???! There is no requirement for a PIR other than that of competency. Clearly C&G, or Part P is evidence indicating competency.

NICEIC would like you to think they are the only authority and that they have it all stitched up for their members. They are not, and they have not.

Exactly but anyone who is Part P registered (and can self certify)would automactically install this

where as a guy who isn't might not because it would mean notifying the local authority

I think the situation is absurd i can work on 11kv installs, change 36 way 3-phase boards and test,

but as im not Part P registered cannot change a fuse baord in my sisters house without

informing the local authority yet i have heard of kitchen fitters doing a 2 week course becoming

Part P when they've paid their £500 notes to NIC or whoever are now more qualified than me

to work in houses and i have every C&G you can get, I just have no need to pay NICIEC ,ECA

whoever £500-£1000 for the first year and £500 every year after that

It is a joke another completely useless piece of legislation from this completely f**king

usless shower of sh*t of a government!!!

I have spoken to about 20 diiferent electricans about this over the last few days

I don't want to argue with you, you have put a lot of valid points across

and points that they have.

There are massive difference of opinions of what you can and can't do in the trade and the general

public have been given even less information.

What they needed to do was a CORGI type registration

(gas engineers will tell you what a con that is as well)

but at least it is just one organisation or like in Australia where only

registered electricians can buy electrical installation products even plug top fuses.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Maddog21

[Telometer]

I'm sorry, but your "friends" don't appear to know what they're talking about, and nor do you, despite your 20 years in the trade.

There are massive difference of opinions of what you can and can't do in the trade

There need not be. The Building Regs are very clear - link posted above. Anybody who disagrees as to what is permitted cannot read!

As for a PIR, I am well aware of what has to be done; it's not difficult, an intelligent person can follow a set of instructions to do it - he might not have the test equipment, but that can be hired. As there is no legal requirement for a PIR (save for in an MHO) there is no legal requirement for a "qualification" in order to undertake one. Westminster Council specifically confirmed to me that "any" " electrician" could perform a PIR adequate for the Council's purposes, and Westminster had no minimum requirements for the electrician's competence.

What they needed to do was a CORGI type registration

Interestingly, no. HMG thought that Part P had a similar effect to Corgi. Whereas in fact, anybody may do DIY work on their gas at home - and people don't realise it.

Even more nutty is that you can do DIY electrics in your own shop/warehouse and there is no requirement for reporting/inspection, Part P only applying to residential property.

[white van man]

All electrical work requires a test certificate regardless of Part P. This is a requirement under BS7671. There are limited works that are not notifiable to the local authority, however it should be tested and a minor works certificate should be issued. Any work needing an Installation certificate will need to be notified under Part P.

As for a PIR there is a bit more involved than an intelligent person with a set of instructions and some hired test equipment.For a start you need knowledge of wiring systems, earthing arrangements, supply characteristics BS7671 etc etc. You also need to know how to test, what the tests are telling you, and if they comply. Then you will need knowledge on how to complete the various parts of the report.

It is correct that anyone can carry out a PIR, however, I would not place an ounce of trust a PIR carried out by someone who was not an electrician at the very least. Even then the minimum qualification they should have is city and guilds 2391.They should also have professional indemnity insurance in place. Mr DIY with his Hire shop tester will not cut it.

Edited August 5, 2009 by white van man

[Maddog21]

I'm sorry, but your "friends" don't appear to know what they're talking about, and nor do you, despite your 20 years in the trade.

There need not be. The Building Regs are very clear - link posted above. Anybody who disagrees as to what is permitted cannot read!

As for a PIR, I am well aware of what has to be done; it's not difficult, an intelligent person can follow a set of instructions to do it - he might not have the test equipment, but that can be hired. As there is no legal requirement for a PIR (save for in an MHO) there is no legal requirement for a "qualification" in order to undertake one. Westminster Council specifically confirmed to me that "any" " electrician" could perform a PIR adequate for the Council's purposes, and Westminster had no minimum requirements for the electrician's competence.

Interestingly, no. HMG thought that Part P had a similar effect to Corgi. Whereas in fact, anybody may do DIY work on their gas at home - and people don't realise it.

Even more nutty is that you can do DIY electrics in your own shop/warehouse and there is no requirement for reporting/inspection, Part P only applying to residential property.

Well that clears that one up then, everyone is an electrician who wants to have a go!

White van man thank you good reply

I'am now leaving this thread!!

Edited August 6, 2009 by Maddog21

[Maddog21]

All electrical work requires a test certificate regardless of Part P. This is a requirement under BS7671. There are limited works that are not notifiable to the local authority, however it should be tested and a minor works certificate should be issued. Any work needing an Installation certificate will need to be notified under Part P.

As for a PIR there is a bit more involved than an intelligent person with a set of instructions and some hired test equipment.For a start you need knowledge of wiring systems, earthing arrangements, supply characteristics BS7671 etc etc. You also need to know how to test, what the tests are telling you, and if they comply. Then you will need knowledge on how to complete the various parts of the report.

It is correct that anyone can carry out a PIR, however, I would not place an ounce of trust a PIR carried out by someone who was not an electrician at the very least. Even then the minimum qualification they should have is city and guilds 2391.They should also have professional indemnity insurance in place. Mr DIY with his Hire shop tester will not cut it.

[Telometer]

It is correct that anyone can carry out a PIR, however, I would not place an ounce of trust a PIR carried out by someone who was not an electrician at the very least. Even then the minimum qualification they should have is city and guilds 2391.They should also have professional indemnity insurance in place. Mr DIY with his Hire shop tester will not cut it.

But this brings us back to the original question, what do you want Mr DIY to cut?

Why do you need a PIR? What public body ever needs you to do one? And if they do, what legislative requirement is there for the tester to have a C&G? None whatsoever.

Mr DIY CAN do a PIR if he is competent. Whilst a C&G is an indication of competency, it is not a legal definition. And it is extremely arrogant of an electrician to suggest that his C&G gives him some sort of god-given rights to write the above.

[white van man]

But this brings us back to the original question, what do you want Mr DIY to cut?

Why do you need a PIR? What public body ever needs you to do one? And if they do, what legislative requirement is there for the tester to have a C&G? None whatsoever.

Mr DIY CAN do a PIR if he is competent. Whilst a C&G is an indication of competency, it is not a legal definition. And it is extremely arrogant of an electrician to suggest that his C&G gives him some sort of god-given rights to write the above.

Periodic inspection and testing is necessary because all installations deteriorate over time due to damage, wear and tear, ageing, corrosion and excessive loading. Legislation requires that electrical installations are maintained in a safe condition and therefore must be periodically inspected and tested.

Public bodies that may require a PIR are licensing authorities, local councils, insurance companies and mortgage lenders.

Arrogant? Why? Because I wouldn't trust a PIR carried out by someone with no electrical background or qualifications. Damn right. I see on a regular basis, dangerous electrical work carried out by DIYers who think they are competant. Inspection and testing is not as easy as a hired test meter and a set of instructions. People place trust in a PIR, in that it is proving an installation is safe. You are giving the impression that a PIR is not hard to carry out and anyone can do them correctly. You are wrong.

I too am out of this thread

[kingsgate]

My take on that is that there is no requirement for landlords to have a periodic electrical inspection done.

But there is a responsibility to provide SAFE accommodation.

So, if you can see that something is dangerous, and you inform the landlord (write to him and keep a copy so he cannot say he wasn't told) then he should get it sorted.

[kingsgate]

Exactly but anyone who is Part P registered (and can self certify)would automactically install this

where as a guy who isn't might not because it would mean notifying the local authority

I think the situation is absurd i can work on 11kv installs, change 36 way 3-phase boards and test,

but as im not Part P registered cannot change a fuse baord in my sisters house without

informing the local authority yet i have heard of kitchen fitters doing a 2 week course becoming

Part P when they've paid their £500 notes to NIC or whoever are now more qualified than me

to work in houses and i have every C&G you can get, I just have no need to pay NICIEC ,ECA

whoever £500-£1000 for the first year and £500 every year after that

It is a joke another completely useless piece of legislation from this completely f**king

usless shower of sh*t of a government!!!

I have spoken to about 20 diiferent electricans about this over the last few days

I don't want to argue with you, you have put a lot of valid points across

and points that they have.

There are massive difference of opinions of what you can and can't do in the trade and the general

public have been given even less information.

What they needed to do was a CORGI type registration

(gas engineers will tell you what a con that is as well)

but at least it is just one organisation or like in Australia where only

registered electricians can buy electrical installation products even plug top fuses.

I'm sure all the trades would LOVE it if we ended up unable to change a cracked socket-front or a broken light switch in our own houses because we couldn't buy the parts, and had to pay someone £60 + VAT at least to come and do it!

Sure, things need to be safe - but its a question of how far you go, isn't it?

Should people be able to work on their own cars, or should you need a bit of paper saying you are "qualified" first?

Maybe people shouldn't be able to buy ladders to fix their roofs in case they fall off - best leave it to someone "qualified" eh?

People on this site are always pointing out the dreaded "VIs" (vested interests) when TV programmes, newspaper columnists, politicians etc talk up the property market because they stand to make money from it.

Well, same rules apply when you get any industry body lobbying for either a new regime of compulsory testing and/or certification that only their members can provide, or new laws forbidding anyone except their members from doing certain work...... they very much have a "VI" in promoting this, using "elf n safety" as the excuse.

[Telometer]

You are wrong.

But you quite right ignore my question

And if they do, what legislative requirement is there for the tester to have a C&G? None whatsoever.

For in fact I am right. VI isn't the word for it; electricians are the worst closed shop around.