dipstick

We aren't jumping on him we are disagreeing with him. And I still am. Firstly Fred - You go on about wasting your day. What about my day? How long can a potential customer hang around waiting for somebody to call? You are getting paid, pittance that it may be, I am not. You are essentially costing your potential customer time and money. I agree about the market being unregulated. It needs more. It also needs more than the toothless, opt-in, opt-out, industry funded NAEA. Competing on fees you say. I moved from an 1% ea to a 2% ea when selling due to their reputation. If you have a poor or standard reputation then you cannot command the fees. An above average repuation commands a better price. I know because I was prepared to pay for it. And got what I paid for. Erm, EA's entering into the business because it is percieved as easy money - yes. That's why they get in the mess they get into. No sympathy or argument there. With regard to the busy thing again. I can give you concrete examples over a 2 year period of agents wasting their own time due to being bad at their job. Whether this is the actual owner of the business or staff. If you ask me for a property specification and I give it to you, I am most specific, and you send me something completely different from what I requested, then that is your own fault. You have wasted time, envelopes, paper, stamps. If, by the same token whilst putting a completely unsuitable property in an envelope you omitted to put a suitable one in, then you have also missed a potential sale and commission. This happens, over and over and over again. I'm sure this, at least, is not the fault of the owners, company, whatever. It is a case of common-sense. It is not rocket science. It shouldn't really even have to be explained. On the subject of returning phone calls and wasting agents time. How could you possibly know when I phone and ask to be put through to a certain person, usually the one listed on the ad, what I want to know if you don't take the call? For your interest, I see them on the net and usually want one of three things. to ask for a brochure. B)To ask for directions or an appointment to view or C) to get a more detailed description of the garden area. i.e. putting BIG doesn't really say anything. What would be big in London, would I doubt be big in Scotland. How could you possibly perceive that I would be a time waster? And indeed Fred I am sorry to say you couldn't get more wrong. Even though I watch these boards avidly and am a total devotee: I have just put and offer in that has been accepted in todays market - Cash, no chain. A serious buyer. How many agents "missed" me (and their commission) due to all the points you made? It isn't personal Fred, you came on here and made the statements. You have yourself said you have left the business. But I find what you say indicative of the current market in many aspects. Possibly based on the credit card and easy money mentallity. Look on the High Street. It's been propped up for years by customers wafting credit cards under their noses. Nobody had to put any effort in. One mug didn't buy there was a whole queue of mugs standing behind trying to buy the latest mobile, dvd's, clothes. Money lost it's value. How many of those sales would have gone through if people had just been able to purchase with the pound in their pocket? Stores don't think they have to provide any customer service other than a pole that tells queues were to form. Banks don't think they have to provide any other than having a customer service department whilst re-jigging all their branches and departments to their convenience not ours. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Any fool can make money in the good times. The bad sift the wheat from the chaff. When the money is in short supply you have to actually get good at your job to keep it. At the end of the day, whether you like it or not, organisations (not just ea's here) will have to start to learn that their profits come from the customers and that customers aren't just there to provide the easy money.

The media in general has an awful lot to answer for. Leading a nation by the nose. As an experiment try this: Unplug your telly and put it under the stairs. Cancel your newspaper order. Do NOT under any circumstances go near a supermarket to do your shopping. After 2 months go out and buy a paper, nip into your local hypermarket and push a trolley about, then nip back home and plug the telly back in. It will give you a whole new slant on the tatty over-priced rubbish you are buying. Garbage that you are filling yours and the kids bodies with. Highlight to a temendous degree the way marketing is literally being stuffed down your throat for products that matter not one jot (that's always a biggie for me). The newspapers are filled full of misleading rubbish and gossip and the TV is meant to drive you nuts to the point of brain dead. It will also save you quite a bit of dosh into the bargain. Stand back from this life awhile and you really can see how cheap and shallow it really is. I am determined it will not say on my headstone "She had a really nice fitted kitchen"!

Don't think Fred is

Would you explain deflation in laymans (idiots) terms to me please so I can have a little think about it?

Hi Fred, Sorry but I don't care how badly paid anybody is, no excuse for a shoddy job. If you don't like it get another job. If you don't have the skills to get a better paid job, then a) train, tough. A customer service industry should provide just that: customer service. Sick to death of hearing, from all manner of bodies, they were too "busy" to get back to me. The presumption being that I am not busy and can afford the time to sit around all day waiting for them. Maybe we should switch scenarios here? Improve the service, customers will be willing to pay more? From the other perspective, if I cannot contact an agent, why should I use one as a buyer? May as well sell privately. If agents cannot extract the best purchaser for my property why use them? The problem seems to be inherent in the British culture. The we are doing you a big favour by being here attitude combined with the "poor old us, we have to work hard". Which incidently is a bit of a contradiction in itself considering recent events. In the boom they were too busy to do anything for anybody except the most pushy of customers and presumably earning money. Now they still can't get it right even presuming they are saying the market is very poor and they shouldn't be expected to do it right because the pay is rubbish. Heads you win, tails I lose? Nice guy that you are Fred to me you are just highlighting a basic fault in our culture. You seem to have no idea that good customer service and good business go hand in hand. Also when being in this type of industry you are going to be dealing with people. They can be a tad difficult sometimes. Lets face facts. High pay or low pay: Boom or bust: Most estate agents really aren't very good at their job.

All I can add is that it is at least a year old. I saw this programme and haven't had a tv for at least that length of time. It was the one where they completely lost the meaning of Deco i.e. miminalist! Grouping of select pieces.......not!!!!

My twopenneth worth. I know some folks have mentioned insulating homes etc but won't the oil situation have more of an impact on the homes we buy and build? Will we see an end to the "maximising potential" of buying a plot to build a big house with lots of bedrooms and "added on bits". Also the huge numerous bed houses that are on the market today which are currently viewed as status symbols will actually become artifacts that nobody wants. Not only are such properties monstrosities to heat and light but the maintenance and contents would require products derived from oil in many cases. Add to the fact that the government are doing a bit of re-jigging with rates and downsizing may be the way to go? Crikey I think I may become "fashionable"

Oh please Fred. Not the "we don't charge enough so you should accept a crap service" argument. I deal in selling stuff. You spend a fiver with me or £500 you get the same service - a good un! Because I always think that everything is relative. One day the £5 customer may have £500 to spend. One day the £500 customers may disappear and I may be desperate for the £5 ones. If EA's charged more, no matter what the reason, and provided a good service then I would be happy to stump up. What I object to is paying out ANY money for rubbish. And I am also really, really, aware of all the ones that have treated me like garbage as a buyer because they don't think they have any "duty" to me (and in law they are correct), but one day this "buyer" will be a "seller" again. I have a whole long list of agents I would neither recommend or use to sell my property. Very, very, very, short sighted most EA's are! And it is very, very, very, bad business!

Gosh we are so get up and go in this country aren't we? Bulldog spirit and all that. No wonder people in the "professions" feel so secure, you are in awe of them.

Never thought about the mortgage side of it. Perhaps cos I don't need to That's me being smug - don't panic it doesn't happen often but nice to be reminded that I don't have to borrow!

For anybody considering a rural lifestyle may I recommend you read Out of Your Townie Mind first. I think that is the book that says over 40% of people who go in for a country lifestyle return to an urban one. It's lighthearted but does give some good insight into the differences between country and urban living. I still have a bit of difficulty with the definition or rural though. A lot of properties are described as rural when they are actually Village locations. Different ballgame, different outlooks and attitudes.

I have got other stuff to say about your post Fred but don't have much time at the minute, however I thought I would leave you with this one. When I approached the agent who was trying to sell my property to his mate and requested that he stop even mentioning him his response was "What's your f.....g problem?" Ah! just in case you were wondering you can't complain about that because you need witnesses you see. My response: "You are little man, you are".

Did I miss something? When did EA's become generous, giving, paragons of virtue and truth? What evidence do you have Fred for EA's being prepared to swap volume for a lower price? In the recent boom they had both volume and high prices and, in my experience, still squeezed every last penny out. "Who can blame them for trying to make a profit at that time" you may say. Nobody, but then don't try to tell me that their part in the boom was negligable. I have dealt with agents both as seller and buyer. My experiences have been horrendous. When I tried to sell my property through one agent I was continually badgered to sell it at a lower price to a particular chap. Even though this was at the height of the boom. Turns out this chap was a mate of the agents - but as long as they declare it to you at some point then they are doing nothing illegal! When I tried to get away from the agent, I found I had a continual procession of "offers" - You can't back away from an agent if you have an "offer" without paying them. They all fell through of course. I eventually made it and got in with another agent (after 8 months). 2 viewings later I had a cash offer for over 1/3rd more than the previous buyer that went through unobstructed. And then buying - Well hasn't that been a hoot! May I ask - Do any agents know how to dial telephone numbers? Because they seem to have an awful lot of trouble returning calls. They also seem to have a comprehension issue. You say you want a rural detached with land - they send you details for a semi on a main street with a "manageable" garden. No joke - I still have a pile of them coming through every day sat here ready for the bin! I've booked appointments to see properties and only found out when I got there that they sold the damn thing. It's that telephone dialling thing again. How on earth do you expect people to have any respect for this so called profession? Sorry Fred but you can't go about blowing your own trumpet telling folk how good you are - You have to ask your customers to get a more balanced viewpoint. Yes there are some very bitter and confused postings on here, that much I will admit. The fact remains that many more are reasonable and considered arguments. Am I bitter and confused - don't think so. But I know I'm angry at the dismissive, rude and arrogant way I have been treated by many agents. And when it comes to law - Yes I am very aware that an EA has a contractual duty to his client which is the seller. This does not preclude him exclusively from having a moral and professional obligation to the purchaser. Without the purchaser you don't earn a dime. In this current culture of "contractual obligations" many sales people in general would do well to remember that at the end of the day it is the customers money that pays their wages. As an EA you may get your money from the seller but without the buyer they are not going to pay you.

I was hoping TTRTR would come back with some concrete examples on this one. Thing is I did buy low and sell high and I did it with a non conventional build property. Making 5x's investment. Same thing happened when I bought that one. Nobody wanted me to. Everybody is a bluddy expert!!! It's like wading through sludge in this country if you want to think outside the box. I know what I should have done - Got a damn great mortgage offer and bought a standard construction property for about 50% over it actual value about 18 months ago. Well that's what everybody else was doing!!!!

Unfortunately Charlie in this particular instance I haven't found it and I'm a pretty determined little soul on the best day of the week. To be honest I'm just sick of the "professionals" in this country full stop. It's a very long and boring story but I'm fed up to the back teeth of professions that just cover themselves every which way. Why can't they just do a proper job in the first place? Don't know how half of themselves can look in a mirror in the mornings! Gosh I'm pigged off aren't I?

OK TTRTR Cheer me up. Tell me you have successfully challenged a solicitor? Please. Cos in my experience they think they are untouchable.

Not that interesting really Walker. It's a non traditional build and they don't want me to buy it full stop. Couldn't be cheap enough. The surveyor type chappie they recommended hates it as well. But then I only got him in because they threatened to back out and charge me if I didn't. He got a couple of things wrong as well which made me lose confidence and also the way it has been valued seems erratic i.e. "the seller paid x amount for it x amount of years ago so it is worth x amount now". What happened to measuring it against current market values of similar properties? What if he paid too much or too little. The assumption is that the previous valuation was accurate. It all seems a little slap happy to me. Shame I'm not buying a flat in Edinburgh really because that would be easy! Thing is, at the end of the day, I am happy with what I am buying. It's my money. Plus I also got somebody else in on the side to look at it and their opinion is a tad different from that of my "official" valuer. But I'm keeping that under my hat at the moment.

Mmm, When I told my sol to offer x, they said they would be basically going against their principles and wouldn't be acting in my best interests so here's the bill and find another one. We got past that bit but they are still not happy even though I subsequently negotiated the price down. It's limping along but shouldn't be limping really. Conveyancing is pretty simple, just a matter of following procedures and knowing what to look out for. Problem is its extremely boring as well! Maybe they just mess about like this to make it more exciting for all concerned? Probably beats struggling which cereal to pick in the supermarket eh? Cos I get the general impression this is about the biggest real worry in their week!

Further thought: Would it be beneficial to start up our own conveyancing link? Advice by DIYers etc. It may take some of the mystery out of conveyancing with the added benefit of shifting the power base a bit?

I'm not looking to save money Walker, I'm looking to save stress. One that I had neither started the sale neither did he complete it but upped my bill to £1400 from £600 on a 60k purchase. That fell through as I had the removal guy in the house. My next one threatens to pull out every verse end and charge me for services rendered so far because they don't like what I want to buy. This is not on a fixed fee system, in fact this one is expensive but turning out to be a bit of a control freak. I have found much of the talk about the Scottish legal system to be a myth. Both buyers and sellers can and do pull out though not due to gazumping etc. In a stable property market it probably works better but in the recent house boom it's been expensive and stressful and completely inefficient. I can't get the simpliest of my ?'s answered and to be honest I'm pig sick of the lot of them. I did have a good English solicitor when I sold my property here but with the Scots ones I have felt completely unsupported and floundering when it comes to finding out info. Conveyancing is I agree a bit of a minefield, but I did used to work in the profession as a secretary and lets face facts they aren't God (they just think they are) and I'm completely underwhelmed by them.

I'm just not fashionable Giri. I wouldn't know if I was wearing that type of shoes or not!! I wouldn't consider moving abroad to be simple or easy at all. But if quality of life is what you are after and you value other stuff than material goods then I wouldn't stay here. Like Running Bear says it is down to attitude (or should we call it sentiment on here?) It seems like absolutely everything in the UK has to have a monetary value placed on it or it is slung into the pit of worthlessness. Yet the stuff people have isn't even bluddy paid for in a vast amount of cases! The times in the past couple of years that people have stuffed the fact down my throat that they have bought a property for x amount. WAKE UP CALL - If you have borrowed to buy it then it ain't yours! Simple really isn't it? Do you need a chart or a graph to prove it? Where's Dr Bubb? On another tack: What government positively encourages people to borrow to the point of limiting their quality of life? Whether this be in housing or material goods. This government have literally made a large proportion of the population homeless, in the sense they have been forced into rented accomodation or still live at home. Who, in their right minds, would put the country they are supposed to be running effectively and efficiently, into this situation? The lot of em are certifiable. When you look on this forum and see the ridiculous and mind-blowing cost of properties that are dumps, in poor areas with a generally breakdown of social order, it infuriates me. And then the fat, useless, flacid lumps want you to trust them and vote for them. How could you possibly go to a bank in the UK and take any advice they give you seriously? They lend extortionate amounts to any poor fool who is desperate or stupid enough to go to them. Loan sharks is the term I believe? I must be angry I'm keeping this one going a while!

I don't believe Mark that we actually have much left to build on. We are flaccid. Opinionated certainly but not inspired enough to get off our backsides and stand up and be counted. Taking it from the bottom level if you like, the times I hear people spout off about how hard working and great they are, when in actual fact the evidence points otherwise. Back to the EA thing for a minute (it is a housing forum after all!) I had a little bit of a run in with somebody the other day who was saying how hard she worked in as an EA and how horrible and terrible the customers were. i.e. not turning up for viewings etc. and how she had to work 10 hours a day and it was soooooo difficult. I pointed out (as I have been on the receiving end for so long) that: A) It was a customer service environment ie some people are difficult If they did their job more efficiently in the first place they would not be so busy i.e. don't send out a brochure for a semi detached property to somebody who wants a detached. Don't send them 2 brochures for a property that was sold 2 weeks prior. etc etc. C) If they weren't such money grabbing leeches and striving to get every penny out of each sale they would see that there are other factors to finding a "suitable" purchaser and they wouldn't waste so much of their time on the big money promises. Not my fault if the people in a service sector industry don't actually have the wherewithall to judge people and learn by their mistakes. Hey guess what? Any idiot can make money when times are good. The bad times sort the wheat from the chaff and a lot of people are about to enter the grinding stone! But obviously it won't be their fault. It will be somebody elses. Because like the credit mess we have also got ourselves into "it is somebody elses fault". No sense of personal responsibility never mind social or cultural. Where is the work ethic? Why do we think we are great when we obviously aren't? Who is telling us we are great? Yes we used to have a culture and national pride. There is absolutely nothing stopping us from having that again if we want it. Trouble is it has to be earned and I think deep down we know we aren't actually earning the pride. Also it takes bottle to stand up and be counted. People are fine giving opinions or approaching a situation where they have loads of backing or cover, but take a risk? I think not.

Where did you go Giri? I wouldn't mind learning another language at all but I do think to go and live abroad without even knowing the basics really is naive. Or maybe many English still think everybody should speak our language? Wish I could say it was a "sounding off" Confused, but it ain't. Everyone I seem to have dealt with in the last 6 years in particular, has been looking for an angle. Through my eyes and experiences we seem tacky, cheap, stupid, greedy, arrogant, uneducated, untrained and so far up our own backsides it's a wonder we can get off the sofa! Our culture is disappearing. This is nothing to do with immigration or anything like that. This is because we have let our sense of identity diminish because we don't actually care about it. Councils that have stupid planning regs and are ungoverned. Police, that are so quick to jump if you go 1 mph over the limit but show bugger all interest in burgalry, arson (in my sisters case) - Route of least resistence is the title I would apply to them. Politcians who couldn't lie straight in bed and are willing to sell us down the swanny to please either large corporations or their mates in high places! Sorry but I just don't like what England is becoming any more. We just don't have many reasons left to be so ****-sure of ourselves. To be honest I think we are becoming a bit of a joke. The countryside is nice though!

Hi Penbat, I know all the stuff about the house prices in Ireland but if you look down market at the rural stuff there are still loads to be had in the very, very, manageble price range. Wish I had a boat!

Ahem.......I may have gone a little off thread there in comparision to the much more reason responses of the other posters. I think language and friends are an issue for many people as well. But then I would be quite prepared to learn another language if I thought I could easily GET OFF THIS SINKING SUIT FILLED DUMPIT HEAP!!!