ThePrufeshanul

Looks to me like some of them have died through mortars/shelling from their positions lying on the road. Timeline from the satellite imagery you referenced ties in with those weapons being used from a Ukrainian counter-offensive on the town which was, according to multiple sources, under Russian control at the time. I don't know - we need evidence from autopsies and the scene. But it's certainly a possibility (i accept you don't think it's a probability). But you have dismissed it completely out-of-hand. Do you see now how blinkered you are?

Two insignias that you can see. Likely many more that you can't. Neverthless, nobody disputes that Azov are jammed full of Nazis. Fantastic that you concentrated on the numbers though, it reminded me that you repeatedly ducked the question about how many Nazis you are happy to supply with arms, cash, training and intelligence. Given the history of our own country IS there a limit for you - a point at which you start feeling uncomfortable or even ashamed? I'll tell you my answer - I am ashamed that we have provided this help to a SINGLE Nazi. I am glad that Putin is eliminating them. What about you? How many Nazis are you happy to arm and supply before conscience kicks in? a thousand? ten thousand? What's the number? Simple question, do you have a straight answer? Or just more deflections?

Er...I mean, you didn't see the literal high def picture I supplied for you? With a trainer, a weapon n the table ans Ukrainian troops wearing Nazi insignias receiving the training and weaponry? You don't believe the proof of your own eyes? Sweet potato.

Complete ********. If this story results in further extensive sanctions being brought or a NATO peacekeeping force being deployed or some newer generation of high tech weaponry being issued do you think Zelensky would think it was beneficial for the Ukrainians? You're a military planner and seemingly unaware of false flag operations? Holy hell. Not that this was necessarily an example but the point is that losses on our own side can be beneficial to obtain further resources. Thankyou for confirming this in your comment about Ukraine benefiting. Gunshot execution wounds are certainly disturbing - all the more reason for a full autopsy and forensic examination of the scene. We know Ukrainian military forces were there for a while and we know they're desperate to pull more allied force into the conflict. Given you seem so blasé about the motivations for invading Iraq - clearly a war crime - you might have thought you had learnt to be a little more careful.

No, I mean the ones with the totenkopf and double lightning strike badges on their uniforms that we are sending help to. All you need to do is check the armbadges. Your vague allusions of whataboutery don't change the fact that we are arming and supplying Nazis. Here's a picture from the training we gave alongside the first batch of N-LAWS that landed in Ukraine. The wartime generation must be spinning in their graves. Congratulations - it couldn't have happened without your support.

....says the guy who supports supplying money, intelligence and high-tech weaponry to literal Nazis.

Unfortunately for you, investigating crimes is a little more complex than that. To start with your last point first, the motive for committing a crime is the most important factor in committing it so please don't try and pretend that it's irrelevant. Finding out "who benefits" is the most critical piece of evidence. Crimes do, of course, occur at random with nobody benefiting but these are vanishingly rare. We are told that the satellite photos showing the bodies on the street are from mid March. If you look at the corner of your screen you will be able to see the current date. Now, allowing for us discussing this for a couple of days, you should be able to work out a minimum time (in days) that the bodies have been lying around in public as evidence of a war crime without being noticed. What number do you arrive at? (PS the reason i say "minimum" is because the bodies could conceivably have been there before the first satellite photo). Now it may be that the bodies died as a result of shelling or mortar fire rather than being executed - there are signs of that around and it coincides with a Ukrainian assault on the town - that also covers means to add to motive. Finally, we have some evidence of Azovs and Ukrainian National Police moving around in the area before this was reported to the world cameras. In one of the videos, an Azov soldier is asking if he can shoot the people wearing white armbands (this indicates a "traitorous" surrender to the Russians as opposed to civilians wearing blue). As with any Social Media its difficult to verify but nevertheless we know security forces have had the opportunity to interfere with the scene. So, yes, there are numerous questions that require full and forensic investigation to determine what happened. Both sides have had arguable motive, means and opportunity to be the culprits however much you'd like to gloss over it.

Again, using Occam's Razor, if there is plentiful evidence of a war crime, what is the likelihood that war crimes have been committed?

Sure - there certainly have been numerous examples of bodies being burnt as well as mass graves. There is also plenty of evidence of Ukrainian military contravening the Geneva Convention. This week a western journalist was reproting on the case of a woman being found in Mariupol having been evidently raped and having a swastika carved in her body - it's not clear which side were responsible but these are clearly sickening crimes. If the Russians are delivering a "don't mess with us" message by leaving bodies in the streets for weeks is it likely that nobody actually noticed these until days after they left? I can seen how it would be possible but is it likely? Ukrainians and journalists were wandering around Bucha days after the Russians left. A thorough investigation is needed.

OK, so using Occam's Razor, who stands to gain from producing evidence of "Russia's war crimes"?

You mean the Russians would openly leave evidence of a war crime despite having weeks to move them? Were they executed or did they die from shelling/mortar fire? Like the guy riding about on his bike. Where are the pools of blood? This is why a thorough forensic investigation is needed.

Sure - but bodies were lying around in the open streets for weeks having been executed by the Russians and nobody noticed until a few days after the Russians left?

Cant link just now but there is a video from The Sun website where Lavrov is setting out plans for emergency UNSC meeting - I posted on here about it yesterday. Yes, it takes time for bodies to be counted but are we seriously being told these were photographed in the street days ago and that people have been wandering around and not noticed them? Relatives and neighbours didn't report anything in those days? Why are the bodies scattered around like that? There are many oddities here - lets hope whoever is responsible is caught and executed.

Well, I'm sure everyone on the thread is keen to see the perpetrators of this injustice caught and punished. Seems like the Kremlin has been caught flat-footed by the images emerging however there has clearly been a rush to point the finger at the Russians. Clearly, there needs to be an independent investigation to look at what has happened with forensic evidence and autopsies. Here's what we know, Russia requested an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to highlight and present evidence - this was blocked by the UK who hold the presidency this month. The topic will therefore be discussed at a meeting that was already scheduled for today. We're being told that Russian forces left the town some days ago but that the bodies were photographed by drones and satellites at that time. Nevertheless the Ukrainian mayor of the town made a social media video celebrating the return of the town to the Ukrainaians - people made subsequent videos over the next two day wandering around the town, no mention of any bodies in the streets. Then a bunch of bodies are found, laidout in an odd manner down the street with hands tied with white bandages (the pro ukrainain forces wearing blue, the pro Russian/surrender/civilians wearing white cloths). We know that the Ukrainians are desperate to drag the West into further confrontation with Russia - which is why the nuclear reactors had to be secured. For at least the last fortnight people have been waiting for news of a chemical or biological attack as a false flag operation in order to achieve this. The world has already paid heavily for the lies about WMDs which were made in order to drum up support for invading Iraq - it is essential that this incident is independently, comprehensively, forensically and patiently investigated.

In this scenario I'm afraid you are the flat earther.

You seem to have a real problem comprehending straightforward text. I think the issue is you keep trying to twist it to suit you. The Nazis the Russians are fighting are a security threat to Russians - comprende? There are Nazis in the Russian military (as in all militaries) but they are not a security threat to Russia. If they were to become so, trust me, Putin would have no qualms about having them thrown off a balcony into a tub of polonium. Nobody (including you) does know how many Nazis there are in Ukraine - we know its a significant number - we also don't know how many are armed by us. Likely, again, a significant number, the first batch of anti tank weapons that arrived were being demonstrated to Nazi members of Azov - as their arm badges showed. Again, how many Nazis are you OK with arming even if its to "defend their own country"? A number please. No "every person deemed a security threat to Russia" is not the same thing as calling every security threat a Nazi. Every Nazi is also not a security threat to Russia. Nevertheless, there ARE Nazis who ARE security threats to Russia and these are the ones they are trying to kill. It's extremely straightforward. I can;t believe you were in charge of explosives!

It's the Russian who are actually killing them by the bushel numbnuts - what are you talking about? It's literally one of their stated military objectives.

Seriously what ARE you warbling about? The Russians are trying to kill the Azov Nazis - the Azov Nazis are trying to kill the Russians. They're on opposite sides. At least get the basics right if you're going to post.

Well we know that some of the troops we are sending these weapons to are Nazis. The exact figure I would only be guessing at (as are you). As far as I;m concerned one Nazi is too many. How many would you be comfortable arming? A thousand? Ten thousand? Or is there no limit?

Nope, not what I said. Nazi count inreased by Russian invasion yes. Nazi count will be decreased by Russians successfully killing the ones they find. I think we had a similar situation in WW2 - choice is either to fight them or not (or arm them as you have been advocating). Russians have chosen to fight them. As for what is a "Nazi" and what isn't - you put a good case forward, so now get out there and eliminate them if that's how you feel. The Russians have been clear about their intentions and the Ukrainian Nazis are pretty easy to spot.

No - the Azovs are the Ukrainiains not the Russians. By "us" I mean UK and US governments and - unlike most people on this thread - I'm very much opposed to giving arms to Nazis - I'd prefer they were all killed.

Yes there are Nazis in the Russian (and every other) armed forces. Point is there are no "official" nazi battalions, statues, commanders, policies that represent a security threat to Russia or Russian-ethnic or Russian-speaking people as there are in Ukrain

It's a little more complex than that. Some people are out-and-out Nazis, they wear the insignias, have the torchlit marches, the full enchilada. Some are Nazi-curious and become full Nazis when a military situation arises. So, that's what has happened here. You identify the "full" Nazis and the "previously quiet but now full" Nazis and eliminate them. Of course, as you say, should you FAIL to win the fight all you have done is increase the total number of Nazis since you create them without eliminating them. However we must assume that Putin thinks he can win (even using your criteria of losing even though he is capturing Ukrainian ground and achieving his military objectives). You clearly hope Putin loses and are in favour of arming Nazis in order to do so. As I said, let's see how your comments age.

Well that's easy for you to say sitting safely at home.

Seems to be going great. Best way to do it is to expose, identify, eliminate. The process would be much quicker if we weren't arming them of course.