NorthamptonBear

Bjorn Nyland and others estimate less than 10% loss from charger to battery. Non-Tesla chargers charge by kW dispensed, Tesla charge by received so some experiments have been done (plus other ways of calculating this). Various figures for model 3/Y motors at 94-97% efficiency. Refinery costs for petrol seem to be ignored - large amounts of electricity are used in refineries, they often have their own dedicated power plants and more modern ones (ironically) are solar powered as it's cheaper.

I prefer 10-15 minutes for Supercharger use, but it's when I/we want to go, I have enough or charge rate falls below say 100kW. If with family, they take longer usually (toilet, wander around, me a coffee if in mainland Europe - often free in hotels that host Superchargers).

"Don't agree" - ok. You seemed to be suggesting this. "why travel into work where you and your car unwanted" - polluting cars are unwanted. Don't pollute. Poorset affected by pollution the most. Electric Vehicles have lower Total Cost of Ownership, plenty of cheap second-hand ones 3 years old at £5k.

Social care/other costs for old people has been mentioned on my feeds recently and over the past few years. I expect every part of the budget is stretched.

So ban combustion cars from towns then? I'm in agreement with you eventually, but I think it's better to do it step by step with adding costs to unwanted fossils.

Can you provide a source for "chilled salt water". A quick google search found no matches. Cook off temps are much higher. Ambient temperature is fine. Some fire brigades hose down the batteries for a while, perhaps with some kind of flood barrier around and just wait. Some lift or drag the battery into a water filed skip. Seems easier than containing a liquid fuel which will spread all over the place, potentially igniting other combustion cars - especially older/badly maintained ones with leaking fluids or build up of flammable dirt like oils on engine..

I've seen elsewhere that 60% of all cobalt mining is used for removing sulphur from oil at refineries and cannot be recovered. It would be higher, but many refineries have low standards and such fuel is sold in many poorer countries. This cobalt isn't regulated like most (all?) of the EV cobalt use. Over half of all Teslas sold today contain no cobalt. Others have been reducing over time. Oil refineries will continue to use cobalt and their usage will grow as a percentage as other battery chemistries are adopted, especially on mobile devices (Electric Vehicles don't use much). Cobalt in batteries can be recycled (low usage in EVs, high % in phones). The problem is that few EV batteries need recycling. If we stopped using cobalt, most affected - diesel, other fuels, mobile devices, then EVs would switch to Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP). LFP is still a Lithium Ion cell - but with Iron replacing Nickel, Magnesium. You can have cells which have more complex mixes. Every anti-EV argument can be knocked down easily except range without recharging. To counter that one, many can charge at home takes seconds cheap - you can be paid to charge often uses electricity that otherwise causes National Grid problems from oversupply midnight to 4am typically takes excess from home solar DC charging increasing by 45-100+% a year "UK electric vehicle charger network grew 45% in 2023 Ultra-rapid chargers more than doubled in number as infrastructure roll-out accelerated" https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/uk-electric-vehicle-charger-network-grew-45-2023 disadvantages of going to a smelly overpriced garage not everyone is safe driving without breaks every 2-3 hours or has an iron bladder just for the sake of it. Hardened road warriors maybe but not occasional long trips with family. Deep Vein Thrombosis is a thing. HGV driving has limits. when you DC charge - you plug it in, walk away and use toilet (straight away - useful fo rlittle kids who are desperate), get coffee - you don't do this in 2 steps as is often needed at motorway services COST

Thanks, I like the auction videos. Going through the auction process like that is an eye-opener.

EVs make the most sense for many/most people. It's possible to cherry-pick situations, but these are getting more niche and ridiculous every time they're repeated. Each problem is getting sorted over time. Most people only need to DC charge for 15 minutes or AC charge for a few hours every now and then. There are lots of alternatives but everyone's situation is different. EVs may NOT be ideal for you at the moment, but situation and options will improve. This thread's title and many of the posts are really anti Tesla and EV - so the pushback is arguing against that. Like any sizeable purchase, it's best to do one's own independent research. Plenty of sources. Best to look at what EV owners say, not those who harp on about problems and fail to see the massive disadvantages that ICE have because they are used to them. Facebook groups (EV, Brand-specific), SpeakEV and loads of youtube content. What aspect of the Energy schemes aren't available to you? I could imagine if you're not on direct debit, that suppliers may restrict them, but that's a much wider issue that means many can't afford to run an ICE car anyway if they're in that position. [without drives] https://octopusev.com/ev-hub/charge-ev-with-no-driveway ZapMap - check for chargers in your area/near work/other places you often visit. https://www.zap-map.com/live/ Tesla V4 charges 29p / kWh at super-offpeak rates (cheaper than many domestic rates) [without drives]. https://electricbrighton.com/faqs/how-do-people-with-no-driveway-charge-their-electric-cars https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/electric-vehicles/ev-charging-guidance https://www.speakev.com/threads/running-ev-without-home-charger.171018/ - "I haven't installed a home charger and I have no plans to do so at this stage. I use the public charging network and with a combination of the Bonnet app and some good local free charging facilities its been great. 12,000 miles driving is now guaranteed to cost me a mere £25." 5 minutes in - his own experience in London. [Typical household incomes] The poorest people are affected most by pollution, have their lives cut short and health affected long before. They rarely buy new cars of any kind. As EVs get bought new, they gradually become more affordable as they get older. Absolute bargains in second-hand EVs at the moment (in my opinion). There are fewer moving parts in EVs, so hardly any maintenance. You save on annual servicing, wear and tear. You can buy a used 3 year old EV for £5000. If you're on a budget, lease or second-hand. Fuel costs are lower for EVs, so a higher purchase/leasing price works out the same.

Nonsense as I'm sure most realise. Sales increased/increasing massively. Highest results in satisfaction/brand loyalty surveys. No real inventory. Less than 20 days, half of which is on ships or transporters. Don't get many lying around. Hard to get one from stock usually (unless flexible). Many competitors beyond a year of stock (certainly in USA, plenty of videos such as CarEdge). Car prices (new and used) driven down by Tesla, others struggle to compete. Tesla set the standard and the price of the segment as they dominate each segment in their markets (Model Y biggest seller in world, Model 3 usually top saloon / "sedan") car. Only CEO who cares for humanity's survival and does something about it. This relates to the Big Battery that Australia's fossil corrupt previous government opposed and Elon Musk got done in less than 100 days. Look what happens in the video when he's told that some Australians have to choose between food and cooking. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1563292/Elon-Musk-emotional-finds-expensive-power-Australia.html

Yes, hyperbole, but I do get fed up with the anti-EV crowd's ignorance of cobalt use in refining, deaths from pollution here and elsewhere. We're really lucky in the UK, as we still (hopefully) have rules preventing the worst kind of fuels in road transport. far worse in Africa or Australia (but new standards coming into force in end of 2025). Shipping in EU is improving, hopefully UK doing the same. https://www.stormwatershepherds.org.au/blog/the-impact-of-stormwater-car-emissions/

So you propose ICE cars are banned from urban environments? Interesting. Apart from petro-chemical places, I can't imagine we've got huge problems in the UK from satanic mills any more. Air pollution from vehicles is a problem in most or even every urban environment. If the argument is that this pollution is pushed to China and elsewhere - well that's why they want EVs - to cut down on the huge pollution from ICE. Air quality in China has improved where EVs are most prevalent. India is doing itself huge harm by letting vested interests delay EV production, import and use.

Interesting numbers - thanks. Also HVDC is just getting started really. Lots to learn, lots to improve, lots of savings from scaling.

High Voltage Direct Current has advantages over Alternating Current. HVDC costs more for for the kit at either end, but is cheaper to build, less losses on transmission side. Hence why transmission distances are going up. A partially global grid is possible. Recently, the ability to have these lines switch direction has got a lot more practical and cheaper. For renewables, there is a chance to extend the geographic coverage of high wind and solar eg as high winds travel east across Europe, capturing in Ireland, UK, Netherlands, Denmark etc. Solar going the other way, peak midday in Spain/Morocco might be useful in Italy (filling storage to max prior to max demand). Even better further east. Bizarrely, arctic summers can be great for solar even without transmission, but with it - huge potential. You can mix farming and other land use - Agrivoltaics can be optimised for solar power or plant health (plants survive extreme heat events). The UK has plenty of capacity most of the time, we just need to find enough for 4pm to 8pm. Wind, interconnects and storage probably best in winter. Much cheaper than fossil fuels and far better for energy independent from rogue petro-dictatorships and disruption to transport. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Comparison_with_AC

Air pollution causes massive health issues.

On trans-continental roadtrips, I charge every 2-3 stops. People in the car need breaks and when I'm driving 600+ miles a day, I like to get a coffee, use toilet, stretch legs. The start of this thread was about noticing how many new chargers. The money is piling in to Gridserve, Applegreen from huge investment companies. Now that the rules allow charging operators to install own substations and some of them realise that Tesla Superchargers cost one third of others, pair well with Megapacks (energy storage/price arbitrage), are very reliable and available in huge numbers, we'll see more and more chargers. Who's going to pay for the decommission of fuel garages and their polluted grounds? The number of fuel pumps has been falling for years, it will just continue and accelerate. The operators generally lost money on operating them, but made up money with drinks/snacks. This is a good coverage of current and future. Includes comparison of ICE vs EV fuelling costs, new chargers in Cornwall (as I recall, not sure when, but he has chapters) - More EVs > more chargers More chargers > more battery storage > more profit from energy arbitrage/sales More EVs charging slightly slower than ICE, more dwell time, more profit for shops/restaurants/landowners. Battery storage keeps electricity costs down by 1) taking when wholesale cost is low or negative and 2) lopping the top off the demand curve. Max power used in a period (15/30 minutes, month) is a high cost. By trimming this, it reduces costs dramatically. "Maximum demand" / "Demand Charges", "Capacity charges" or "Availability charges" - other phrases and special meters.

Gretna Welcome Break may be the worst Supercharger for queuing in the UK. It isn't the norm. Expansion will help. 4 currently, additional 14 planned nearby at Caledonia Park, opening next couple of months hopefully. Ever seen Supermarket/Costco garages at peak? V4 Superchargers are often open to non-Teslas as well.

Yeah, good point. That's me on holiday. If I need to just add a bit for local runabout travel after I've used up home charge getting there, Instavolt will cost £2-5 extra, but if it's next to a shop and I save on parking charges, I don't mind that it's only 50 kW - gives me a chance to get my stuff done in town. Alternatively granny charger and reimburse accommodation owner. Next few years, electricity prices will (in my opinion) fall dramatically and EVs will be even more common. Accommodation owners should just add an exterior plug and include it in the price. Plug could be 13 amp or commando or both.

If I didn't need a car I wouldn't have one. I personally wouldn't have a car in London. I might hire them for special purposes. Tesla chargers can charge a Model 3 faster than FastNed's can - but one charging curve https://support.fastned.nl/hc/article_attachments/5470726250781/TeslaModel3LR.png According to google search - I think this is old now. Feels faster when I've done it. These might be V2 speeds. Tesla are on V4 now. Of course you do something else while charging (unlike ICE) - you use the toilet, stretch legs, get a coffee (even if in own flask), bite to eat (even if own homepacked). Bjorn Nyland does 1000km challenges. He has an ICE car as a reference:- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit Electric Vehicles can't generate their own electricity (except through solar, impractical for cars as not enough surface area). Please explain what you mean - do you mean hybrids? Anything obvious has tailpipe emissions. Cars cannot run on water. They can split water to oxygen and hydrogen. The hydrogen needs to be pressurised to dangerously high pressures at a huge energy cost. Hydrogen is so small it will pass through many materials and makes them brittle. Very dangerous. Hydrogen in existing gas pipes would be lethal. It embrittles, destroys, escapes. Hydrogen for cars cannot ever be economical, pressurisation is a huge cost, as is maintenance (fuel stations, fuel cells need pure air or high maintenance). Batteries are easily reused for stationary needs or highly sought for the materials to make new batteries. Recycling batteries is profitable. The grid can charge a greater number of % of current EVs than fuel stations (garages) can. People don't realise how precarious and fragile petrol/diesel supply chains are. Everything from oil well, transport (Red Sea), ports, refining (they have whole power plants/solar farms devoted to their electricity needs and consume huge amounts of cobalt and other materials in refining), road tankers. As soon as there's a flood, we get huge pollution spills from any submerged fuel tanks at garages. Electric Vehicles are often (and can be further incentivised) charged at the times when the grid has a surplus of power and so help stabilise the National Grid. That's why electricity is cheap/free/negatively priced between say 00:00 and 04:00. Most people only need to charge every now and then. It's different if you're doing huge mileages, but as I've said before - plugging in every night for those that can is more convenient than filling up the tank at the end of a gruelling day. Easier to plug in at home/work in a few seconds than adding extra time to a long day.

While the important interconnects for this discussion are UK to neighbours, I feel it is important to correct myself. I didn't notice that the Australia>Singapore one is on pause. It was to start now and be live 2026-7 and fully ramped by 2028 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link#2023:_temporary_administration

Batteries are economic to recycle now (high concentration of high value materials) and in high demand as secondary/static storage. "Problem" is that batteries last much longer than was predicted - so recycling feedstock is low. Too many recyclers fighting over limited batteries.

Heavy metals gushing from the exhaust of a Range Rover at pram level outside schools. It's illegal, but few are prosecuted. Of course the driver is also inhaling this pollution and the heavy metals add to the chances of lower IQ, impotence, Alzheimer's and heart/lung diseases.

So many older Teslas with huge mileages on them. Early ones had motors, suspension or batteries swapped for newer tougher versions as knowledge about the fleet & technology developed. Absolute steal are second-hand EVs. The luddites/easily propagandised seem to be sticking with ICE with their high service, fixing and fuel costs. https://www.fleetandleasing.com/leasing-news-1/high-mileage-tesla-close-to-400000-miles-on-the-clock/

If @Frugal Git didn't have free Supercharging, being a Frugal Git, they'd probably find a more frugal way of chargin' git... Only an idiot or someone who is fully expensed (and hence doesn't pay themselves) would pay high DC charger prices.

I charge at home. 30 seconds effort to charge. I used to have to queue at cheaper petrol garages or busy ones on my route - especially Fridays - when I commuted a lot I had to fill up petrol/diesel every 1-2 days at the end of a long working day and commute. Now I just plug in. So much easier. If away from home, I can charge at my hotel or customer site (sometimes), I can nip out at lunchtime, get a free coffee at the Tesla centre. In Europe, I'd visit a Supercharger at a hotel, use the toilets and be offered free (really good coffee) and a cake. I don't know if that's changed but very civilised and happened in multiple countries.