miko
-
Posts
4,833 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Posts posted by miko
-
-
[quote name='the shaping machine' timestamp='1317333522' post='3133142
I would say I believe in fairness, but I'll accept jealousy if it makes you feel better.
1) They could travel in like I had to when I worked in Westminster.
2) If you moved the subsidy from housing to wages our tax bill would drop (because not everyone actually needs that flat in Pimlico). Overall the system would be fairer and more efficient.
You are jealous and you talk crap .
The council flat in Pimlico that was built by the council 50/60 years ago is far cheaper for the state than taking it away from the person who lives there and upping their salary to rent it on the open market. . How much extra would it cost to increase a nurses salary in order that she can go and rent a one bed flat for £800 p.w.
-
It's you who keeps blaming bankers.
I put most of the blame on the one group who had the power to do something about the problem and didn't. That of course is the politicians (and by direct extension the people who voted for them).
Are you going to tell me the Banking crisis is made up . Blaming the Bankers yes because they caused the problems . The 26 year old who has been able to vote twice in her life is not where the blame lies .
So who did you VOTE for out of those standing at the last election who was going to reduced your tax ?
-
If it needs their services it can pay them what they need to live or travel in to the centre.
But does central London's council housing have to be in central London?
I assume that you can define a "worthwhile job", and also explain why we should all subsidise the housing costs of those who are doing these jobs?
If such jobs are really so important, the absence of subsidised housing would force their employers to pay a higher wage.
Why not have central londons council housing in central London ? Answer your jealous that you cannot have a council flat in Westminister so you don't want anyone else getting one.
Worthwhile jobs , Nurses, Teachers, fireman , Hospital porters, Road sweepers, Cleaners.
Tell you what you just moaned about your tax's , if these people were paid enough to not need subisidised housing in London your tax would go up even more . Make your mind up.
-
. However young people do vote for the failed three parties in large numbers, so they have to accept some responsibility.
Do me a favour
There are only two main parties that are ever going to get into govenment the third can only do it if one of the other parties needs to make up the numbers . Don't blame people voting for the only choices that are there .
Accept some responsibility the woman I spoke to today is 26 she been able to vote just twice in her life she is responsible for none of what has happened STOP PASSING THE BLAME away from where it lies.
-
I live in Lambeth (bought 15 years ago), and couldn't afford to buy here now.
I could never have afforded to buy in Westminster, but there are still plenty who still have council flats there. This is neither fair nor does it make sense to mis-allocate scarce resources this way.
No wrong central London needs the services of people on low pay . Central London needs council housing , Westminister SOLD many of but still has some . What is wrong with someone on a low wage but doing a worthwhile job getting one ?
-
As with most people I grudgingly get out of bed and go to work each day, only to have a disturbingly large fraction of my pay stolen by the government. Some of that money goes to things I support (though I'd like to be asked first), but much goes to people I do not want to have it.
That may make me a unpleasant person, but it's my money, It's only fair that I should decide how it's spent.
But it won't be as well will it , it will be JUST . JUST THE FECKLESS.
Like you I get out of bed grudgingly every day and have a large fraction of my pay stolen by the govenment . This has been going on since I left school in 1979 . However back when I was in my 20's and 30's I still had a chance to make something of my life the jobs were there the housing was at reasonable levels and I got somewhere in life.
I have a good pension that I can get my hands on in 80 months time when Im 55 and I count the time ( talk about wishing my life away ) . Untill then I carry on , everyday I see the results of the mess the govenment both Labour and Tory have made . I see the problems of London first hand and I hate the political elite for what they have done . Yet they pick on the easy target when the whole fked up mess needs sorting and people held to account.
Every day I speak to people younger than me who also have their wages raided but they have no hope unlike I did ( speaking to a young women today who earns a good wage ) she said unless she met and married money she has not got a clue what is going to happen in her future . This is what has been caused and the problems in London are more accute than many other areas of the country. London is now the TALE OF TWO CITYS always was but the gap has now got so much bigger.
Putting the jobless to the back of the housing queue is going to slove none of the problems that have been caused. Getting hold of the bankers might , but it won't happen.
-
Misunderstanding, I assumed that you were talking about Westminster.
Prices in Newham should really start with a -ve sign.
No this proposal first came from Newham ,
Thanks you just proved my point , by saying that ( prices in Newham should really start with a -ve sign ). You would need more than an average salary to buy there now.
-
Yes, eventually the money will simply run out.
Sadly also likely to be true, but avoidable if we had better governance.
And the the feckless themselves, though arguably they were largely a creation of politicians in the first place.
OH but you fail to mention the Bankers or the MP's who caused it , yes understand why as you cannot bring youself to admit they will never be stopped or caught in any great number , just go for those that you term the feckless.
-
That is what I said. I was just suggesting that an alternative would be to not levy NI and to let the individual decide on the level of insurance required. That is a debate for another time though.
Help is being taken away because the government cannot afford the cost any more, but won't yet confine the focus to the most deserving.
No space in Westminster, and nowhere near enough money to build the amount that would be required to deal with the shortage.
Have you ever been to London?
1) Is true for all of the UK.
2) No not really, not in Westminster.
3) Not been true for at least 100 years.
There should really be zero social housing in Westminster, we can no longer simply throw away such a scarce resource so freely.
Have I ever been to London ? yes lived there for most of my adult life and grew up just outside.
1.The Borough of Newham who first made this proposal has far far more immigration than most of the rest of the U.K taking into account its size , overgrowding , and housing shortage it has had a bigger concentration than most of the U.k. hence the housing shortage is more accute there than many other areas.
2.Forget Westminster there are certain areas of London that are an exception , however they did have a lot of council flats ( you might not notice them as they were not always the ugly run of the mill tower blocks built in much of London during the 50's and 60's. Most of it now sold off.
3.Not been true for at least 100 years . You don't know what you are talking about 25 years ago I bought a flat there the only place I could afford , Beckton which is in Newham was as cheap as chips and all the East London FTB's went there , also knew a single girl who worked as a traffic warden who bought a flat there , that is how cheap it was . It was cheap right up to the last 10 years . Knew someone who bought a very nice two bed house there in 1998 for £79k , I sold the same house for £300k in 2007 . IT WAS AS CHEAP AS CHIPS.
-
Gloriously wrong yet again I'm afraid. It's not envy, but a belief in fairness and equality.
It is simply wrong that an undeserving few should benefit at the direct expense of the many. It is wrong when it is bankers taking large bonuses after being bailed out, wrong when it is lefty politicians fiddling their expenses, and it is also wrong when fecklessness is rewarded by a gift of a house that the rest of us cannot afford.
Of course the fact that the recipients of subsided housing fulfil their side of the deal by reliably voting Labour is just an added insult.
Yes it is wrong all three the
Bankers situation
The politicaians
The Feckless
Problem is the Bankers are getting away with it , apart from a few MP's who were so greedy the rest have got away with it and they will find another scam ( one where they will not get caught this time ) . The Feckless will be stopped , but also many inoccent hard working people who fall on hard times and need help will get caught in the cross fire and will not get the help they have paid for . Help needed due to the conditions that have been bought about by the greed and incompetence of the first two .
-
I've yet to see anyone suggest that those who have worked hard and paid lots of National Insurance shouldn't receive assistance if they encounter problems. You can argue whether the state is really the best vehicle for providing this insurance, but that is a detail.
However what do you do with the significant section of society who just want a free ride? The answer has both moral, practical, and financial aspects. The most pressing is the financial, given that we cannot afford the benefits bill any more. Some people who get help now are going to have to receive less in future, why shouldn't it be those who least "deserve" that help?
Well the state is the one who takes the National Insurance and many many other taxes from the people so it is them that provide the insurance.
You say you have yet to see anyone suggest that those who have worked hard and paid lots of National Insurance should not receive assistance if they encounter problems . Well this is just the thin edge of the wedge , slowley slowley the help is being taken away bit by bit . Already single people under a certain age ( think it is 35 ) will have to move into shared accomadation reguardless of how much they may have paid into the system , how much more are the goalposts going to be moved before those who have paid and go for help do not get the help they have paid for.
When it comes to the financial aspect the HB bill is massive so the answer is starring us in the face BUILD SOME COUNCIL HOUSES. The idear of jobless going to the back of the housing queue came from a London borough that
1. Has had a massive influx of immigrants
2. Had many council houses
3. Was a very cheap area a few years ago, but the overspill from other parts of London has pushed up the prices of bought or rented housing beyound many of those who are even in well paid jobs.
We have let the global rich into London the global poor , have made council houses that people had to live in years ago as they could not afford anything better now beyound many peoples reach ( after they have been sold off to the private sector ) we build no where near enough housing to accomadate this demand , yet the people who have come off worse from this situation , who were not consulted on what the govenment have ( done past and present ) are now going to pay for the massive housing and social problems that have been created. DON'T FALL FOR IT .
-
Those most affected being the hard working but low paid people who are taxed to death to house those who don't work I assume.
Or the hard working well paid , average paid , low paid who have lost their jobs. I know you think that once someone has become unemployed they should be shot but many have paid in plenty and now get penalised to apease people like you.
-
I have empathy but not sympathy. The world changes you have to find a way to change with it adapt or die and all that. What we haven't done is considered the micro systems around say a factory or mine when it closed and how do we keep the fabric of those communities alive.
As for the 'elites' it was on the cards thirty years ago. The factory I did mt technical apprenticeship in is now houses. Easy to blame the mythical elites much easier than looking in the mirror for most people.
Ever since we automated the curve was set you could see that from years ago. Don't by the elite theory if you own a business you want to get the raw input as cheap as possible be that materials or skills. Goes back thousands of years not tens.
The golden bubble where average people could earn great money (factory workers eraning twice what a headmaster earnt) was a bubble from 45 -to emid 70's.
No we cannot all be at the top companies rely on the masses to buy their products . A man with Billions in the bank is not going to buy 1 million tv's as he has no need for them . The million people who would have bought them won't buy them as they have not got the means , so the 1 million tv's do not get sold and there is no need to make them , whether they can be made very cheaply abroad or not . Companies need customers and that is what is getting destroyed .
You almost mock the ex factory worker for not having the insite 30 + years ago to see what was going to happen. You talk about them living in a bubble well maybe the elit's are more blind than the average factory worker was 30 years ago and are having their glory days now what will you be telling them when they have no customers.
Yes the cheapest raw imput theory goes back thousands of years but companies needing customers goes back to the begging of time if they think they can carry on when the customer base has no earnings they will soon find out this about this . What peals of wisdom would you give them when this happens ?
-
Job security only comes from having skills in demand you just have to get the right skills - no amount of unionisation/law changes will make that much difference in a global economy.
Security comes from having skills in demand , well people cannot just change horses when the elite have changed the race . I had skills that were in demand and everyone in my industry did , but they took most of that industry abroad . leaving many without saleable skills , you can blame those who have lost their jobs that it was their fault for not seeing in the future 20+ years ago . However it does not matter who blames who the biggest problem at the moment and will always be a big problem is that SENTIMENT rules , if people have no security they will not spend even if they are earning well on contracts , it does not bode well for companies looking for customers.
-
Well eventually were all get a pay rise once the minimum wage keeps rising to match those who previously were on a good wage but have not had a rise in years so end being paid the minimum anyway.
Maybe I should just get a minimum wage job, at least then I can look forward to pay rises every year and don't even have to put in any extra effort to get it.
Many a true word said in jest !!
The NMW is becoming the default wage for many jobs , quite scarey.
-
Why unsustainable? Supply of labour is more than demand. Britain grows by around 400,000 people a year, so that situation may well continue. And why not immoral? Human beings aren't machines. Surely if we are going to employ them we should also be offering them continuity of employment? After all, we pay for the floor space the machine is sitting on, irrespective of whether we actually turn the machine on.
You raise some good points and raised some others in post 111.
Companies need customers and customers need to earn money. One of the big reasons people spend or do not spend is sentiment . Without any job security people will not buy big items and as you say they cannot get a mortgage. At one point they could self cert ect , which was ok untill it was abused and that has now gone.
We are all dependent on each other but at the moment big companies have ripped up the unsaid rule book and gone to grab more and more , but for them to survive in the long run they will have to wake up to the fact that if they destroy peoples security they will then destroy their customer base.
-
So they let the Global rich come in and price us out.
They let the unskilled come and push pay down .
They squeeze the middle untill there is no more to squeeze .
We end up with a housing problem a job problem and they blame those most affected !! What c--ts !!
-
You misunderstand me - I'm not trying to get wages down. I'm trying to get wages UP for more skilled jobs!
I really wouldn't know what else to do - I've looked at a few alternatives but what I do is pretty specialist. I do hope to earn more with experience - I'm sure the guys around me are on £40kish.. but I have to think if I still want to be doing this for that amount as I grow older. I must get in touch with my friend in Holland...
Sorry if i misunderstood , but I read it that the bin men were on to much compared to you as they were unskilled where as you were skilled.
-
Where is that 'CAGED TIGER' quote from lol??
Good post!!
It seems the wages for skilled jobs just suck in the UK! I've been working my A&se off for 4 years, easily working 12 hour days (+ some weekends) for two of those years, and STILL my wage has only ever increased based on 'inflation'. These Mail stories are often tripe, most of the cases are rare.. though sometimes not! Like I said, my own uncle and his friends in the bin service seem pretty well off to me! I see so many people in big detached houses and I always wonder just what it is they do. Some I do know, some have vans in their driveway and I think 'no way'... I don't think all these people are in serious debt. I think that there is a lot of money to be made in less skilled work in the UK! The UK really is NOT the place to be if you want to make money in skilled work.
IF I were so inclined, I would quit my job and apply to the RAF so they could train me up as a dentist. Free training and upwards of £50k upon completion.
For many once they've chosen a path, they DO become 'comfortable' and hope to progress in terms of salary. I'm still in that phase! The thought of re-training... shudder... all those years, possible lower wage, luck plays a large factor. It can be hard if you've been grafting in a tech job and think you can almost see the light... one of my own friends moved to Holland to work for the ESA... TAX-FREE salary of $60k+ Euros, company car and associated benefits.. only one year older than me! I AM starting to feel the fool. I've been working very late hours of late to get a project out... but it's just not worth my time. But then in the contract (in most contracts nowadays) it's stated that you'll work the hours needed to get projects out - this isn't the public sector where we can go home on time or demand overtime pay (I wish!).
In MY case, I can only hope for a recovery in the States... there I can work as an engineer and earn a fortune compared to here... do that for 3-4 years then I'll have enough money to do whatever I want with.
£20-30k is great for unskilled labour, though is a sting for those that do long hours and difficult technical jobs for the same amount of money. People don't leave as they hope for more in the skilled role. Is it worth the time and money? Is it that the unskilled roles are paid too much, or skilled roles are paid too little (and of course we all know the cost of living is just too high)? £30k isn't a lot of money nowadays (though better than many would like to think). £40k was seen as a good wage by myself a decade ago, and still is. Wages just haven't picked up! I don't know if I'd WANT to earn more than £45k if the rewards:responsibility ratio increased exponentially past that point - more to life than dosh. Hell that's why I'm still in mu current job - it's a paradise for getting my skills up to scratch, I have ample opportunity to learn from good people and the commute is 10 minutes!! I could get a 20% pay rise by moving company tomorrow, I reckon (depressing just thinking about it) but sometimes you have to stick with what's good until you can hack no more of being ripped off in the financial sense.
If you guys weren't in IT or banking... or say those industries started to pay less, would you seriously re-train in a totally different field? Or stay in the same field and look for more pay in a slightly different role?
I wish I could just forget about the student debt but it's not going to happen, is it? Unless I move abroad and lose touch with the UK, which just isn't going to happen. So I'm paying it back. I'd love to get an extra £25k... maybe from teaching guitar... doing tech work outside of work... first I have to stop working for no extra money and then make a plan. How many people really do this, though. I think it's harder than most sources claim to be earning £x amount extra (not that it should be easy but it's easy for people to say).
guitarman I read your post's often and agree with what you say however on this one I think you have got things wrong.
You say in one sentance that £30k is not a lot nowadays and then go on to say that 20-30k is great for unskilled labour. WRONG
Not all jobs are skilled and do not need skills but they are still very important and need someone to do them , if everyone was skilled who out of those skilled people is going to go and empty bins. Anyone what ever they do who gets up and goes to work all week should have a standard of living that provideds a decent home and standard of living.
I understand that you are pi11sed off with your situation however picking on those further down the pecking order is not going to help your cause . Over the last 20 years we have had a steady downward pressure on wages in this country that is now affecting many average and low paid people . Speaking as you do you are playing into the hands of the elite by helping them get wages down .
Think about it , you can and will if you put your mind to it advance in your career , maybe you will have to come out of your comfort zone and change jobs ( why have you not done so ? ) . leave the bin men alone they will be doing the same very important job which will never change or ever give them much scope ever .
-
Fair play to anyone getting on and applying.. some people are natural grafters.
I have a friend who was laid off by Bombardier recently.. has since turned down two jobs in Oxford and has just accepted one in Scotland on close to minimum wage.
Won't accept so much as a free round in the pub and has never once moaned about his lot.
Wish I had my own company just so I could give him a job myself. Certainly deserves it.
The pity is that 484 people who did apply for the bin mans jobs will be turned down .
Good luck to your friend , long way to go for a job paying close to the MW , hope it does not go the way of his last job .
-
Amazes me the amount of resentment on this board towards these kind of jobs, the "perks" and the pay.
Yes people cannot win . They are expected to do these jobs for next to nothing , and if they decided not to and signed on then they are told they should get off their back side and earn some money.
Wonder who would scream the loudest if the rubbish piled up in the streets like it did back in the 70's.
The sad thing about this is that it shows how dire the job market is .
-
Exactly - my mother owned her own house and had substantial savings
but she got dementia and the state took everything apart from 18k
which was 6k each for me and my 2 siblings when she recently died.
There is absolutely no sense in working round the clock and scrimping and saving for old age
I will not be making the same mistake.
But it is not all about old age there is life inbetween .
I used to earn good money and had a good standard of living , that has all changed now I earn below the average wage.
However I have a small place paid for nothing fancy . I would not like to be with a mortgage or renting now on what I earn . The risks that I took years ago and there was a risk element to it as no one knew what would happen have led to this situation being comfortable . As for throwing myself on the state in retirement yes that might not be a bad move , but at my age without any kids to increase benefits and provided a state funded house life on the state would be far worse than the standard of living I have now.
-
You describe a world where labour is free, where labour doesn't earn it's marginal product - a world which has never existed. So cutting the stupidity out of your question on your behalf - yes I would work for free - knowing that as I became more productive, another company would hire me and pay me in line with my productivity (and bid up my labour value so their competitors don't get me)!
I did not describe any world . I asked if you would work for free knowing that you would be got rid of and replaced with another freebie and no one else would employ you as they could get free workers. You still won't answer that simple question no matter how many times it is put to you yet accuse me of stupidity .
-
If you're asking me would I be happy to receive first class commercial experience unpaid - the answer is yes.
You frame the question with false dichotomy.
Thats not what i asked ,
I asked if you would work for free knowing that you would be got rid of when they replaced you with another freebie and other companies would not employ you paid as they could also access freebies , quite simple really if you read it .
Jobless Go To Back Of Housing Queue
in House prices and the economy
Posted
No you blamed the 26 year old for the problems.