Friday, Sep 18, 2015

Shock! Horror! Elderly asked to downsize. Working people forced to move every 6 months or year...

Daily Mail: It's time to sell up your home OAPs told: Anger as financial watchdog tells elderly to downsize to tackle housing shortage

Maybe let's keep the status quo but strip anyone on the state pension from blocking planning applications? Or even better, strip them of their state pension if they hold onto more than say £500k of house. That figure net of building costs represents the burden that they are placing on everyone else, why on earth should someone tucking into half a million of public land value get welfare?

Posted by mombers @ 09:27 AM (6058 views)
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79 Comments

1. mark said...

apparently there is going to be a supercold winter this year, worse than the 1950s winter

that might solve the issue

Friday, September 18, 2015 08:43AM Report Comment
 

2. i remember the 90`s said...

Pension used to be what you paid NI for then somehow it became a benefit ,now we have politicians citing this garbage when they are the cause of all the housing problems ,(not building ,selling off council stock, keeping house prices too high with all these schemes ,BTL out of control )then to cap it all downsizing will cost more tax .

Friday, September 18, 2015 08:43AM Report Comment
 

3. enuii said...

Rules and laws are not cast in stone and promises are made to be broken. Plan accordingly if you can but the state of flux is ever faster.

Friday, September 18, 2015 09:03AM Report Comment
 

4. judgandury said...

"Pension used to be what you paid NI for then somehow it became a benefit"

At last someone with a shred of common sense and decency.

"why on earth should someone tucking into half a million of public land value get welfare?"

Because they paid for it and on this planet it's not public land

"Or even better, strip them of their state pension if they hold onto more than say £500k of house".

Nasty little pillock. They paid in the contributions asked of them by the government, for their pension. If you don't think it was enough then blame the government...not old people.

As "i remember the 90`s" said, its the politicians fault that there is a housing crisis. They didn't plan ahead or build enough over the decades. It's not the fault of elderly people. The spiteful reactionary behaviour we are seeing here, from a small minority, degrades humanity. Silly little boys.

Friday, September 18, 2015 09:31AM Report Comment
 

5. mombers said...

"They didn't plan ahead or build enough over the decades"
There are more bedrooms per capita than ever before. Housing is being used inefficiently, not least because of all the perverse incentives.
"They paid in the contributions asked of them by the government, for their pension"
Well, their contributions were not enough and were not ringfenced in any case. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, it matters who is going to rectify the situation. At the moment, it is being dumped on the working population via tax increases and the silent repudiation of pension rights for those paying in now. Retirement ages are already creeping up (as they should and then some) but realistically, how do you think that my state pension will be paid? There's not a hope in hell that their will be enough young people to support the state pension system, and I certainly hope that my kids will not be burdened by vastly higher taxes to pay for any old people except the truly destitute. I am sacrificing a great deal of current consumption (16% of my salary) in an effort not to burden my kids' generation.
The government certainly isn't helping by ramping up stamp duty and by not letting the free market build retirement housing. There should be no impediments to downsizing, hopefully this will start a conversation
"it's not public land"
I said public land value. A 500k house that has a rebuild cost of 100k can only be explained by the land cost, and the owner does not create this. If we're going to ask people to hand over 40.2% of their private property if it's the fruits of their labour, it makes no sense not to ask those whose private property is land to chip in at least a little...

Friday, September 18, 2015 10:08AM Report Comment
 

6. p. doff said...

Wot judgandury says @ 4.

Friday, September 18, 2015 10:12AM Report Comment
 

7. britishblue said...

There is a desperate need for a joined up housing plan in the UK that looks at all the different markets from room renters, house or flat renters, 1st time buyers, family homes, retired homes, government owned owned homes, refugee housing, housing associations etc and this is done in relation to changing demographics, population swings in different areas, etc.. It should look at populations density by areas. We are only the 51st most densely populated country in the world and both Belgium and Holland are 50% more densely populated than us. So many of the objections are pure subterfuge and smokescreens.

Land needs to be reclassified. Greenbelt cami into force in 1938 when we lived in a different world. It is an archaic throwback from the past. Greenbelt needs to be reclassified into different types of land. There is green belt that is beautiful country side which needs protecting. Then there is other greenbelt that is merely farmers fields covered with pesticides and deserted by wildlife. Total greenbelt in the UK is 13% of land, whereas on;y 2.6% of land is developed. Ho much greenbelt would a couple of million new dwellings really take up?

This is not hard and just as we have select committees and cross party committees on other things such as phone hacking, parliament should have cross party departments looking to solve this crisis and planning for 5, 10 15 and 20 years ahead. Whether Corbyn will ever lead his party or become Prime Minister, I do hope that he champions this one problem, because this is a problem that shouldn't exist. We do not have a shortage of land or a shortage of skills to build housing. We also do not have a shortage of funds because release of the high intensity/ high rent subsidized housing in this city would offset the investment costs within a few short years.

I used to feel sorry for people that had flats above an Indian take away or a sfish and chip shop in London. Now a government minister in the cabinet would not be able to afford these on their salary without a significant injection of capital.

Friday, September 18, 2015 10:16AM Report Comment
 

8. Striebs said...

judgandury @ 4

You are right .

I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn and the Layabout Party will be with the original poster though .

Friday, September 18, 2015 12:04PM Report Comment
 

9. Brickit said...

@1 Mark
"apparently there is going to be a supercold winter this year, worse than the 1950s winter

that might solve the issue"

Meaning?





@4 "judgandury"
"As "i remember the 90`s" said, its the politicians fault that there is a housing crisis. They didn't plan ahead or build enough over the decades. It's not the fault of elderly people. The spiteful reactionary behaviour we are seeing here, from a small minority, degrades humanity."

Indeed. Baby boomer bashers need to vent their frustration at those making the government policies past and present.

Friday, September 18, 2015 01:12PM Report Comment
 

10. i remember the 90`s said...

Just to add if state pension is a benefit why is taxable as earnings .? !!!!!

Friday, September 18, 2015 07:00PM Report Comment
 

11. sibley's b'stard child said...

Bloody good post bb.

Friday, September 18, 2015 07:12PM Report Comment
 

12. Headmelter said...

Some of the comments directed towards the elderly on these boards are truly unbelievable. The current pensioners paid what was demanded of them. They bought houses as HOMES not investments. It's been the policies of successive govts, since Thatcher, who have changed the public perception of housing from shelter to investment.... WHY should our pensioners leave their HOMES for something smaller to maintain the 'housing investment' facade ?
We all hope to be old some day, some people would do well to remember that.

Saturday, September 19, 2015 08:20AM Report Comment
 

13. tenyearstogetmymoneyback said...

What would help would be if there was some investment available as consistently profitable as housing.

We could sell my Mothers house but with interest rates at a fraction of the real inflation rate it isn't worth it.

Sheltered housing can be a good idea but I would be willing to bet that the service charges keep going up.
In some cases you are also tied into how the property can be sold, so in the end the deal is not much better than a Static Caravan park.

I was going to say there are some good deals like the one my exs Mother has, but then I remembered how she had to move flats three times in two years when they decided to do up all the flats. She ended up with a nice flat but all the money she put into decorating the first one was entirely wasted.

On a similar subject when they were going on about the "Bedroom Tax" it made me think about my Aunt who lived on her own for about forty years in a three bedroom council house. That was entirely the councils fault. In the 1960s her own house was demolished for a road scheme, but she was told "Don't worry you can have this much nicer council house. The rent is really cheap and of course we will do all the maintenance"

Saturday, September 19, 2015 01:26PM Report Comment
 

14. libertas said...

Most one bed flats in Zones 1 or 2 are over 500k.

Saturday, September 19, 2015 01:48PM Report Comment
 

15. reticent said...

The problem is the problem is the problem is the problem.

Old people aren't selling because they've lived through years of HP appreciation and they don't think it's going to end. They don't want to cash their meal ticket in until the last possible moment and you can hardly blame them. What needs to change is the perception of prices rising 9% y-o-y until the end of time and that will involve a lot of other changes that none of the people who can bring them about would be able to stomach (rising IRs, major curbs on BTL, building council houses, domestic rates/LVT etc.; most of all just more desirable asset classes than property).

BTW, There actually is an NI fund (although I doubt it was entirely ringfenced) and it is supposedly about to run out.

That said, if there is a think tank making the case that those of us in our 30s will get anything like the current state pension in real terms at 70 (or whenever), I've never heard of it. The triple lock is a joke.

@10 Funny how many people who agree with the bedroom tax get very angry when anyone mentions applying nudge economics to encourage baby-boomers whose kids have left home to downsize.

Demographic changes have meant that every 2/3-bed bungalow built facilitates a very long property chain, but other trends dictate that that's not what's under construction. A smart govt. would incentivise the developers to supply what pensioners want and the pensioners to take them up on it, but until one arrives, we'll have to make do with luxury high-rises designed to appeal to foreign investors.

Saturday, September 19, 2015 07:26PM Report Comment
 

16. judgandury said...

@12 That must be a record for the amount of words posted with no real meaning.

I see a pattern here. Write some brain dead spiteful comment and then try to waffle for England in the hope that it gets forgotten. The other day we had waffle to cover up some childish nonsense about confiscating people's assets'. Today we had 'strip them of their pensions'.

This is Britain mate and we don't go in for that sort of thing. Have a little respect.

Sunday, September 20, 2015 10:01AM Report Comment
 

17. pete green said...

Judgandury, I some some interesting patterns too in sentence construction and sophistry masqueraded as logical debate....

Sunday, September 20, 2015 05:40PM Report Comment
 

18. reticent said...

@j&j

Well, I must say, your own contributions have been such radical interventions as to make me rethink the whole medium of internet commenting. Or do you see yourself more as a sort of an internet commentator?

@PG

I'll say. A YouTube channel must be missing a troll.

Sunday, September 20, 2015 09:18PM Report Comment
 

19. judgandury said...

Now now. Ok, if you want an internet comment. I think the internet has given naughty children the idea that they can make anti social comments without being told to do one. The internet is now the real world and in the real world you are going to be taken for a nasty snide, if you go around talking about stealing old peoples homes and pensions.

Monday, September 21, 2015 07:41AM Report Comment
 

20. reticent said...

It's an old article, but this was on the front page of BBC news this morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15400477

The very first proposed solution on how to deal with the housing crisis is to encourage old people out of their homes via the tax system.


Current government policy on paying for palliative care is founded on the independent Dilnot commission which recommended that people should contribute no more than 35k towards their palliative care (the govt. controversially made it 75k), and only people with less than 100k in assets (including their home) should be exempt from paying anything. Naturally, in some people's cases, that implies that those with with insufficient cash to meet the cap, by the time they are forced into care, will have to sell their homes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8508048/Dilnot-Commission-elderly-care-costs-could-be-capped.html

Perhaps you should direct your snides to the BBC, the economist Andrew Dilnot and/or the government.


This is a website devoted to how overpriced housing is. You may yet here more radical suggestions as to how to deal with that problem than even the BBC is prepared to report.

Feel free to engage with these ideas and put forward your case as to why you disagree with them. I'm afraid your last comment still seemed, to me at least, like commentating on other people's comments.

Monday, September 21, 2015 11:18AM Report Comment
 

21. judgandury said...

Yes but what's that got to do with your comments about confiscating old peoples assets and the bloke above talking about stripping old people of their pensions? These spiteful child comments are a long way from just messing around with some taxes. If you don't want to be thought of as a nasty pillock then leave out the anti old people stuff. I'd hate to be your grandparents. You've got some front talking about engaging when you spend half your time here group bullying libertas. Since ive been here all l've seen from you is old people hate and group bullying. Thanks but I'll pass on engaging with you

Monday, September 21, 2015 12:26PM Report Comment
 

22. reticent said...

The discussion we had was about forcing old people to sell their homes to pay for their palliative care. I wasn't the one who began equating that to confiscating people's assets, I just posted that I agreed with the fact that those with enough to contribute but without enough ready cash should be made to unlock the value from their main homes. As I just posted, that's actually current government policy.

I never said anything about stripping old people of their pensions, but I have read many an article in the Economist and elsewhere asserting that the state pension will either have to be cut well below subsistence level or else (and more likely) means-tested at some point between now and the time I retire, because of the declining birth rate and the fact that the first generation of pensioners didn't pay into the system. I doubt that will take the form Mombers described (i.e. those with houses worth 500k or more receiving no pension). But if and when they do come to means test it, if they don't count the main home, that will create a perverse incentive for people to tie up all their money in their house on top of not sorting out any pension provision for themselves. Nevertheless, I suspect that is the course they will have to take, because to do otherwise would be politically impossible (not to mention rather unfair on the cash-poor pensioners forced not only to downsize, but in many cases out of the affluent areas they have lived in all their lives). But that's a depressing thought, because more incentives to tie up money in property ultimately means more over-priced housing for the generations to come.

For the record, I don't think we should means test the state pension at any time, but if they're going to means-test mine, it's a bit ridiculous that the current lot get a triple lock, as it only means they'll have to means-test them sooner.

I may have been pretty short with Libby at times over the years, but idaresay I started by showing him a lot more respect than you've shown me. I also don't think the comments I made in the last few days...

1. ...pointing out the climate change denial article he posted had nothing to do with house prices and that it would be deleted (which it was)...
2. ...saying I was sick of pointing out why negative interest rates are macroeconomic lunacy...

...constitute group bullying. It's not as if I've called him a communist, nazi, naughty child, nasty pillock etc.

Monday, September 21, 2015 01:33PM Report Comment
 

23. judgandury said...

Add dishonest to that list

Monday, September 21, 2015 02:25PM Report Comment
 

24. judgandury said...

"Or even better, strip them of their state pension if they hold onto more than say £500k of house"

You: "I'm with mombers"

You: "blah blah nothing communist about stripping assets blah"

Only bullied liberate the once? Yeah right

Monday, September 21, 2015 02:34PM Report Comment
 

25. reticent said...

Are you serious? Because I said "I'm with mombers" on one thread, I automatically agree with something else he said on a different topic a week later?

What I actually said was "There's nothing communist about confiscating people's assets when they die, or are about to. Inheritance is anti-competitive, if anything." Its a poorly-worded statement that I wrote at 9am on a sunday morning on my phone and from which you've been quoting a fragment out of context ever since.

As I said later, I don't think making people sell their homes to pay towards their care or inheritance tax constitute confiscating people's assets anyway. Quite why any of this means I'm a drunken, nazi, communist, nasty, old-people-hating, group-bullying pillock is anybody's guess.

When did I say I only bullied him the once? I said I may have been short with him at times but didn't feel like a bully for doing so.

Monday, September 21, 2015 03:12PM Report Comment
 

26. p. doff said...

I think we need people like Judgandury or Flashman to bring a bit of balance to this blog. ;)

Monday, September 21, 2015 05:13PM Report Comment
 

27. judgandury said...

"It's a poorly-worded statement that I wrote"

OK then. Sentiment finally disowned, time to move on. When people make snide statements about stripping people's pensions away it's never a good idea to team up with them. In this country having money is not a crime and old people and minorities for that matter are easily scared by haters like mombers. It's dumb to blame old people for succesive governments f**k ups.

Monday, September 21, 2015 05:30PM Report Comment
 

28. pete green said...

I disagree with you J&J and dislike your hectoring and supercilious tone. Anyone who makes statements invoking the 'will' of the people like you do has me very suspicious and is obviously a wrongun. Also you are very apt at creating straw men to knock down, reminds me of another poster who used to frequent this site. Swaggering blowhards can impress a few but not me.

Old people, at least the better off ones, have been happily voting and benefiting for the policies that have created the private debt fuelled bubble that is at the core of our financial woes making the lives of the young and hard working very much much worse. Increased taxes on the productive elements of our society such as work and trade have hit the young and middle aged very hard and had the effect of increasing the deadweight of monopoly they have to bare. This is patently unfair and we need policies to address this.

I am all for redistribution of unearned income but that is far better achieved by land value and other externality Taxes than any form of confiscation although nobody has mentioned that apart from the usual issue of what level of support the state should give and to whom for retirement care. Care homes are in a terrible mess mostly because of privatisation and the land speculation those new private care home companies got involved in. I think the state should have a safety net for all and so we should get building some more care homes and sheltered housing. We could easily afford it as long as landowners(and the banks) do not get the uplift in land value when the council finds a good spot to build them.

Monday, September 21, 2015 08:01PM Report Comment
 

29. judgandury said...

"Old people, at least the better off ones, have been happily voting and benefiting for the policies that have created the private debt fuelled bubble that is at the core of our financial woes"

Wrong subject mate, this is about the housing shortage. And you haven't thought your voting thing through. The middle aged and young have voted for the same Labour or Tory Governments that caused the housing problem. Using your logic you would have to nick everyone's assets except for SNP and UKIP voters.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 06:22AM Report Comment
 

30. pete green said...

F... I mean B&B takes careful aim at the straw man he just created and fires, missing the point by a mile....

It is the right subject as the debt fuelled bubble is the most important issue with the House Price Bubble & its eventual crash. So the politicians where co-opting floating voters (skewed to older and middle class) to beguile and mislead them that HPI means they are getting richer, while really keeping bankers and big landowners happy.

Your view of politics is naive at best or it suits you to present a naive view of politics to construct your straw man to shoot at. Both the Tories & Labour (& Liberals to that matter) pandered to older middle class voters by keeping the Housing Bubble going and generating enough theoretical unearned income to keep them happy. If income is unearned then I have no problem with shifts in tax structure that takes it away. Far better than carrying on the perverse incentives of HPI that is destroying this country and our future economic prosperity that for some reason your are determined to obfuscate with clownish rhetoric and a laughable effort to play to the gallery.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 02:00PM Report Comment
 

31. judgandury said...

No, its about a housing shortage and you failed to face up to your error. You stupidly blamed old people because they voted for whatever policies. That was shown to be illogical so you went into one. Not sure you're up to this mate. Unsubscribe.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 02:42PM Report Comment
 

32. pete green said...

Yes there is a shortage of quality housing and we should build a lot more & vastly improve the housing stock we have but supply is only one part of a bigger economic topology concerning house price bubbles and busts. Of more importance is the monopoly of land and the complex issues that arise from that. This creates the perverse incentives for builders and sections of the electorate to respond positively to policies that restrict house building. And plenty of countries have built a lot of housing and have not avoided the calamitous effect that Land monopoly has on the economy.

I think it is you who is not up for a proper grown up debate, but I am happy to have a meaningful discussion on the issues of House Price bubbles and their economic underpinning. But if you think you can abuse others on this forum with your 'double taps' then I will continue to highlight the intellectual dishonesty of your rhetoric.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 03:04PM Report Comment
 

33. judgandury said...

But what about the bit where your nonsense about voting got shown to be cobblers? It was the basis of your entry into this topic and it was really dumb. If you come in like that and fail to acknowledge your error don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously. BTW from what I've seen most of your posts are met with an embarrassed silence, so try not to be too crazy on the rare occasion that someone replies. Try to remember that it's only a few idiots who hysterically blame old people or any other part of society for that matter. Sensible, decent people don't think like that. I see you're drama queening again on the other thread about theft etc. Why does everything have to be so insane with people like you?

It's quite simple, if we had less people or more houses there wouldn't be a problem. No need for the idiot theft talk, economics mumbo jumbo or hysterical granny bashing.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 03:37PM Report Comment
 

34. pete green said...

What was cobblers? - explain what the issue is - is this your usual debating tactic to say something is cobblers when you have in no way refuted it???? Sensible, decent people don't debate like that....

The only person not taking me seriously seems to be you and libertas. Sensible, decent people don't make false claims like that....

Blame should be apportioned properly and the 'propertied old' just one of many groups have been getting unearned income from HPI and some have voted accordingly what's wrong in pointing that out??? - only granny bashing in your twisted mind, not like what sensible, decent people think like.

Even if we had a lot more houses they would be lots of problems (admittedly less) but still a lot just like in the USA, Ireland & Spain etc

"Economics mumbo Jumbo" - beyond your intellectual level or you perfectly understand just are politically opposed to the issues I raise? - I wonder what a sensible, decent person would think?

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 03:49PM Report Comment
 

35. judgandury said...

Stopped reading after the first sentence. Already explained.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 03:54PM Report Comment
 

36. reticent said...

@p. doff

Flashman certainly often disagreed with a cosy consensus here, but he made 10 valid contributions for every insult he dished out (of which there were many). He alluded to economic indicators, shared regression analyses he'd performed etc. If J&J wilfully misinterpreting people's posts and calling them names is what passes for diversity of opinion around here these days, then we're really reaching.


"Sentiment finally disowned"

I said I regretted the wording. I never said I disowned the sentiment. I spent many words defending the sentiment.

"time to move on"

Are you sure you don't want to quote the first half of the sentence out-of-context a few more times?

"When people make snide statements about stripping people's pensions away it's never a good idea to team up with them"

He said that AFTER I said I agreed with him ON A DIFFERENT COMMENT THREAD ON A DIFFERENT SUBJECT, and as I already explained, something similar to what he proposed is seen as inevitable in the next 20-30 years anyway, so what he said wasn't actually that controversial, even though the wording was certainly vindictive.

@PG

I would argue that FM never actually made straw man arguments but more often forced people to think through the consequences of policies they were suggesting, which some found uncomfortable. He did, however, play devil's advocate a lot in order to try to wind some people up.

"And you haven't thought your voting thing through. The middle aged and young have voted for the same Labour or Tory Governments that caused the housing problem. Using your logic you would have to nick everyone's assets except for SNP and UKIP voters."

This is the straw man argument to end all straw man arguments since it not only involves a leap of imagination to turn PG's refutation that old people bear some responsibility for voting in policies that benefit them at the expense of the young, into a call for everyone who ever voted Labour, Tory or Lib Dem to be punished, but the chosen punishment also involves conflating something Mombers said with PG's line of argument and then exaggerating it further.

You effectively just wilfully misinterpreted what he said, built a ton of logical fallacies upon that and then satisfied yourself that you'd made such a killer argument that nothing else mattered.

"I think it is you who is not up for a proper grown up debate"

+1

"BTW from what I've seen most of your posts are met with an embarrassed silence"

I think PG's posts are informative and welcome and I'm sure I'm not alone. Yours are hostile and when they contain any real substance beyond insults, employ highly specious reasoning.

"Stopped reading after the first sentence. Already explained."

If that's to say that you read everything up until this point, then you clearly didn't understand half of it.

I'm not a Smiths fan, but I think Jack C nailed it with his response to you.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 05:32PM Report Comment
 

37. judgandury said...

Sour grapes for making a fool of yourself. Grow up

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 05:39PM Report Comment
 

38. judgandury said...

Constant bullying of liberate and idiotic reactionary crap against old people. Nasty people.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 05:56PM Report Comment
 

39. sibley's b'stard child said...

I hardly think it constitutes bullying where someone invites ridicule.

In any event, don't you think sock puppet accounts are a little childish Flash?

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 08:43PM Report Comment
 

40. reticent said...

He also posts here of his own volition, more than anyone else I might add. He talks to us all as if we're all ignorant and he has a lot to teach us. I highly doubt he feels bullied in the slightest.

But I also don't think J&J is flashman. Not all caricatures are fictional. There are plenty in the real world.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 09:40PM Report Comment
 

41. pete green said...

I am not sure J&J and flashman are one and the same - obviously they share an interest in being a moralistic blowhard, playing to an imaginary gallery, constructing straw men to shoot down & other logic fallacies. If J&J is a sockpuppet of Flash then he is trying to go for a more 'moral majority', 'man in the street' approach but once the angry fingers get typing he will give the game away.

Anyway its good to get the old debating skills on the go. Incidentally some of Libertass's latest posts have been a bit more coherent & had elements of logic and real knowledge. Still the denial of the colossal deadweight costs of land monopoly that are throttling our economy.

Tuesday, September 22, 2015 09:54PM Report Comment
 

42. judgandury said...

"I highly doubt he feels bullied in the slightest"

The standard bully reply. Nah, he likes it. He doesn't mind. He was asking for it. Creep.

Whenever you get shown up for what you are, it's always straw this and straw that. Amazing how you and the other one dish out the insults and granny hate with every post then turn into whiny kids when you get a taste of your own medicine. Also typical bully behaviour.

pete green: "Old people, at least the better off ones, have been happily voting and benefiting for the policies that have created the private debt fuelled bubble that is at the core of our financial woes"

me: Wrong subject mate, this is about the housing shortage. And you haven't thought your voting thing through. The middle aged and young have voted for the same Labour or Tory Governments that caused the housing problem. Using your logic you would have to nick everyone's assets except for SNP and UKIP voters.

No straw there, just a dumb anti old people point by pete green being shown for what it is. He couldn't answer so just like you he waffled and insulted for England hoping that people would forget his stupid argument. Straw! take a look above and you've both given out more of your favourite word than anyone else.

Looked up this flashman on the search bar and well I never. It turns out that reticent is actually flashman and a load more and pete green was outed by housepricewatcher and others for being the same as a bunch of banned people. Just like you he shouts straw at people in every old post while getting banned for stawing for England. Also looks to me from old posts like pete green or should i say sparticus has a total bunny boiler obsession with flashman. He's like a crying teenage girl with his flashman this and flashman that in almost every post. I hate him I hate him I lurv him. One of the clowns calls me flashman then the other steps in to defend flashman because he is flashman! Imagine how horrible it is in these jokers heads.

Bullying, pensioner hating, man obsession. What a bunch of freaks.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 06:05AM Report Comment
 

43. pete green said...

To add to the similarities. Flash always had to have the last word on any thread and resorted to abuse after loosing the augument.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 07:38AM Report Comment
 

44. judgandury said...

Time for your meds pete. You've been rumbled mate

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 08:19AM Report Comment
 

45. libertas said...

A financial watchdog, who wants Pensioners to put capital into their member's financial products.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 10:30AM Report Comment
 

46. reticent said...

"Looked up this flashman on the search bar and well I never. It turns out that reticent is actually flashman and a load more and pete green was outed by housepricewatcher and others for being the same as a bunch of banned people. "

Really? You spent all night reading old posts and managed to report back by 7am? That's impressive.

Well, I looked up flashman on the search bar and searched for my own name in each article and nowhere am I accused of being Flashman on the first page of articles that come up, so you must have read a fair few.

In fact, when I search for the only article in which I remember people accusing me of being flashman, via either google or the search tool here, it appears to have been deleted.

So, I think, if anything, that you're the one who's been rumbled.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 10:39AM Report Comment
 

47. judgandury said...

I did read a fair old bit. Once I got going it was too hilarious to stop. Never seen such a shower.

The stuff you choose to pick on is really weird. I am not sure you're the full shilling chief. You weren't accused of being flashman in a heading so that somehow matters? The fact is that you were rumbled as being flashman several times in the stuff I read and the other madman has been rumbled by loads of people as being a whole load of other people. This site is the funniest ever

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 11:21AM Report Comment
 

48. reticent said...

I'm sure you did read them. But you sure as f^@^ didn't read them in the last 24 hours.

I never said I just read the headings. I said I searched for my own name within the articles that come up when you search for "flashman" in the search bar as you claimed you did. None of them include people accusing me of being flashman.

If you have found such an article, by all means, share the link, but the one I remember appears to have been deleted.

I have a job, a family and I'm doing a degree in my spare time. I don't have time to argue with people pretending to be stupid. My instincts kept telling me that you were a troll, but I couldn't understand why anyone would bother with such a convoluted attempt at trolling, so I gave "judgandjury" the benefit of the doubt, even though the username ended up proving eerily prescient as to the sort of definitive indictments he ended up dishing out.

I don't really get what your game is and nor do I care.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 12:41PM Report Comment
 

49. judgandury said...

By troll you mean anyone who calls you out on your bullying and childish pensioner hating. No one needs the benefit of the doubt from you, that's for sure. Don't have a game mate. Get it into your 4 inch plank that I just don't like bullies and bigots. Would have swerved you if it was just the one but both got up my nose. You would be more used to my response if you came out with your spiel in public. Bet you wouldn't talk to your Gran like that, or have you already confiscated her LCD? Thanks for the laugh though about flashman. It was better than a novel reading about you two being outed.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 01:04PM Report Comment
 

50. judgandury said...

Ha ha this is great, just found another one where you get outed as being at least four other people. Normally read a book in bed but this was too funny. Couldn't put the ipad down. The wife wondered what I was laughing at. Never thought I would have such a laugh looking for house price articles

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 01:33PM Report Comment
 

51. reticent said...

Share the link then.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 01:42PM Report Comment
 

52. judgandury said...

Apologise first

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 01:53PM Report Comment
 

53. pete green said...

Another similarity with Flashy is referring to evidence to back up his argument without ever providing such a refutation, then going on and on about said unproved 'evidence'. Whole swathes of vitriol was spued out against Wadsworth saying he refuted him without ever having proved anything, a bit like his posts @39 & 30 on this thread.

Also another similarity is complaining of bad motives in others on the flimsiest of evidence while demonstrably exhibiting that actual behavior:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

"Psychological projection, also known as blame shifting, is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude."

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 01:57PM Report Comment
 

54. pete green said...

And another similarity try to get people to apologise
And another similarity trying to pretend they are party to special skills or knowledge without ever demonstrating such abilities or knowledge

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 01:59PM Report Comment
 

55. reticent said...

What do I have to apologise for exactly?

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 02:06PM Report Comment
 

56. judgandury said...

Freak show

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 02:50PM Report Comment
 

57. sibley's b'stard child said...

I think Flash mk2 will suffice until the real one rocks up.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 03:10PM Report Comment
 

58. judgandury said...

This is too much fun. As usual the bigot bully one can't remember what was written a few minutes ago and is talking about flashman again when he's been outed as flashman!! And the thick really crazy one has just written almost the exact same old cobblers he has written under several names to several people. All you have to do is look up the old names he has been accused of and its there. Oh flashman please say its you. I hate you I hate you I need you so bad.

Anyway its my dinner time. Back to your dorms

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 03:30PM Report Comment
 

59. pete green said...

Last word, ignoring the issue when proven wrong and personal attacks...

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 04:53PM Report Comment
 

60. reticent said...

Ultimately, the burden of proof is on you J&J. Why you're in bed reading with the wife at noon and having dinner at 5pm is anyone's guess (where does this J&J character of your live supposedly). However, if you really genuinely got up to speed on all the historical accusations bandied around this place in 12 short, mostly night time hours, you'd be able to link to the relevant threads and you would want to just to prove me wrong. Everything you've revealed about yourself in your posts as J&J suggests that you would relish doing just that.

But you can't, can you?

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 05:56PM Report Comment
 

61. judgandury said...

No one has proven anything including me. It's not that sort of argument. You are just posting the same old comments I've now read from you to loads of people under all your names. Doesn't seem matter to you if they are relevant or not. Do you think you have to keep changing your name because the website thinks you are normal? Here is an example

"trying to pretend they are party to special skills or knowledge without ever demonstrating such abilities or knowledge"

Special skills or knowledge? Its obvious to anyone with a a full set in their tool box that I haven't claimed or pretended any. Don't really need special skills or knowledge to spot a reactionary bigot or a bully. You are not really with us are you mate.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 06:01PM Report Comment
 

62. judgandury said...

Dinner at 5? Got to get there first and I dont have a spaceship. Bed at noon? No pal, normal time. I don't know if you are as you seem but I don't think you should apply for detective school. All you've got to do is put a combination of three names into the search bar and a ton of crazy arguments comes up. Put reticent, pete green, flashman in and see. I'm seriously shite at tec but I bet you didn't think of putting in three names at once. It takes about half an hour to scan through and find the same old words used here about other people. Then from reading all that nutty stuff you get a few new combinations of names and bingo, the accusations are all there. Maybe I should have read war and peace but the madness was hilarious and it only takes about two hours of laughing out loud to work out why some of you have gone mad. I don't even think you are flashman but after you have been accused by a few freaks you should think twice about joining in with stupid claims about someone else. I only came here because I wanted to read a few house market articles and then got involved in some wild stuff. Got to admit it made me laugh but I was actually annoyed about the old people stuff because of the really shitty lives of some old people I know. They've got houses but their lives are still terrible. And I do hate to see someone picked on by a crowd. A bloke in my school topped himself because everyone ridiculed him. You never know what effect it has on someone. Could be water off a ducks back or it could be bad. Anyway I'm not flashman no matter how much pete green wants me to be. I don't think he will admit it but he seemed really excited that it could be flashman. I think there is some sort of bogey man obssesion going on there.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 06:42PM Report Comment
 

63. p. doff said...

I'm Spartacus!

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 08:14PM Report Comment
 

64. box thinker said...

One IP address for 4 different posters. Work it out for yourselves.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 08:35PM Report Comment
 

65. reticent said...

OK.

Well if you pick up your iPad and
1. Open safari
2. Press the bookmark button (the open book icon next to the address bar).
3. Choose history.
4. You should see a list of all the webpages you visited last night in the order that you visited them.

It should be easy to track down the one where I was outed as flashman because you has such a memorable moment laughing about it.


You mentioned another one in which I was outed as 4 people that you discovered at lunchtime. If that was on a different device, you can Google how to view the history on any browser on any platform very easily.

Once you've found the page where people are all outing me as Flashman (although it's nice to know you've chosen not to believe them, after such extensive research), or the one where I'm 4 people, copy and paste the webpage address from the address bar at the top of the browser window into a comment and post it here.

To copy and paste on an iPad you just hold down your finger on the relevant text until an icon with two pages overlapping comes up. Press that to copy. Then, to paste you simply hold down your finger in the text field where you want to paste and the option to paste will come up.

I can find you a YouTube link if it helps.

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 08:41PM Report Comment
 

66. reticent said...

@bt how do you know the ip address of posters?

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 08:42PM Report Comment
 

67. pete green said...

And another similarity - an pathological hated of me
And another similarity - refusal to engage in logical debate outside proving his own point
And another similarity - thinks he can brass it out when caught out :)

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 08:47PM Report Comment
 

68. pete green said...

And another similarity - an pathological hated of me
And another similarity - refusal to engage in logical debate outside proving his own point
And another similarity - thinks he can brass it out when caught out :)

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 08:47PM Report Comment
 

69. pete green said...

And another similarity - an pathological hated of me
And another similarity - refusal to engage in logical debate outside proving his own point
And another similarity - thinks he can brass it out when caught out :)

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 08:47PM Report Comment
 

70. pete green said...

And another similarity - an pathological hated of me
And another similarity - refusal to engage in logical debate outside proving his own point
And another similarity - thinks he can brass it out when caught out :)

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 08:47PM Report Comment
 

71. reticent said...

@61, bt,

I just opened up dev tools and it doesn't seem to log ip addresses within the source code, but I admit I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to that sort of thing. Do you work for hpc?

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 09:21PM Report Comment
 

72. reticent said...

Who are the four posters?

Wednesday, September 23, 2015 09:22PM Report Comment
 

73. judgandury said...

Ha ha ha. It gets better. The amazing front of some people. reticent might be the world's slowest detective but I think I am going to apply to the Met. Followed a few of the old accusations and what do you know. pete green appears immediately after the number cruncher disappears - banned for abuse according to the chat. They always talk about exactly the same subject, use exactly the same phrases, claim to have just had a chat with exactly the same important person and go bananas using EXACTLY the same nutty stuff he uses above. But most importantly to us detectives the exact same weird spelling mistakes pop up over and over. For example do two searches putting these words in: pete green seams and the number cruncher seams. Seams is his favourite word but he always spells it seams instead of seems. It's one of those spelling errors that really hurts your eyes so you can't miss it. What a plonker. Bang to rights.

Detective reticent, I'm busting you down to traffic duties. The blagger was right under your nose. I'll tell you what be honest and admit that you know full well that pete green is the number cruncher and I'll throw in all the links you ask for. Can't say fairer than that.

Thursday, September 24, 2015 10:15AM Report Comment
 

74. reticent said...

I did not know that.

But if they genuinely both spell "seems" "seams", then that is indeed pretty telling, because that is a highly unusual spelling mistake.

I guess it is not surprising that he came back with a different username and that he used his real name, since he claims to friends with MW and MW prided himself on doing just that.

Can you post those links please?

Thursday, September 24, 2015 10:41AM Report Comment
 

75. pete green said...

J&J after that rant I think you have proved beyond doubt that you are Flashman ..... Angry little fingers could not be wrong :)

Thursday, September 24, 2015 01:17PM Report Comment
 

76. judgandury said...

Too late. You've been busted and every time you post people will know.

Thursday, September 24, 2015 01:23PM Report Comment
 

77. pete green said...

I became friends with MW after Joining HPC and MW helped me understand some economic ideas underpinning Land Value Tax and the issues around 'Georgist Economics'. MW is a great chap and I respect him a lot. His work is very interesting and I do like his Killer Arguments against Land Value Tax NOT! Which I believe had Flashman's unintentional input as his protestations helped develop it: http://kaalvtn.blogspot.co.uk/

Flashman's increasingly unhinged aggression to MW and is augments against MW's views using the full gamete of logic flaws showed up what an awful bully flashman was. Interestingly one of his biggest problems was he kept referring to any issue that he proved MW wrong but without ever have doing, or referencing where he had done so, a bit what is going on in this thread.

Thursday, September 24, 2015 01:43PM Report Comment
 

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79. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

 

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