Wednesday, October 20, 2010

There is no note

If This Is True...... KaBOOM

If there are no actual original, endorsed notes, well then we need to get that fact into the open - to force it into the open - because if true, this is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated in human history, and it permeates every single large financial institution in the Western World.

Posted by devo @ 09:41 PM (3146 views)
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37 thoughts on “There is no note

  • Of course, all this conjecture can be put to bed very easily.

    Banks, it’s over to you. Show us the documentation.

    Lawyers prepare to get busy.

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  • Reads like something the Tea Party put together…

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  • 2. rantnrave said… Reads like something the Tea Party put together…

    The what?

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  • The operative word is “If”

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  • 4. tpbeta said… The operative word is “If”

    That’s the beauty of it. The banks’ bluff is being called. They either put up or shut up… shop.

    Those in danger of repossession can unpack their cases.

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  • … and many of those with mortgages can stop paying – with impunity

    and then…

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  • There is always a paper trail. If there was a huge transfer of funds, a transfer of title of a property, and regular return payments, the courts will say there was a mortgage and repayment continues to be due to the original lender at the very least.

    Now, what happens to holders of securities is another matter. But I don’t think borrowers should start thinking they’ve got a load of free money because that just doesn’t happen on a large scale.

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  • 7. maihem said… There is always a paper trail.

    Let’s see it.

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  • There may be a paper trail, but if there is a broken chain of title or no mortgage note they can’t reposess the house.

    They debtor have a kazillion dolar mortgage that they have only made a few repayment on .The lender may have every piece of evidence, however if they are missing the note, guess what – no reposession!

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  • This where the money from The FED QE2 will go, the next bailout.

    And so goes the dollar with it.

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  • So much breathless, conspiratorial, lunatic fringe (or politically motivated) garbage comes out of the US, one is immediately inclined to bin a story like this..

    .but…

    A paper trail scandal does appear to be unfolding in the US, and much like the subprime scandal, these things tend to emerge gradually.

    I’m really not sure how much mileage there is in this, or whether, like subprime, there will be contagion across the pond..

    ..but the possibility that securities were sometimes fraudulently sold more than once does not seem quite so far-fetched, given the other antics that have already come out in the wash..

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  • I must admit I was expecting Flashman to have visited this thread by now and dismissed this out of hand with a very plausible reason as to why this couldn’t happen ?

    But as yet ………………..

    So I’m with Uncle Tom on this one.

    The otherday on a similar link I expressed relief that the over indebted weren’t about to get a load of free houses, now I’m not so sure.

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  • The ball is rolling already for anyone who thinks this nonsense.

    Some investors are already demanding their money back from companies like Countrywide Mortgage because it didn’t maintain “accurate loan records,” and that is “in violation of underwriting guidelines.” This week, investors asked for $47 billion back in a demand letter delivered to Countrywide. Because Bank of America bought Countrywide a couple of years ago, B of A is on the hook for the refund.

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/institutional-holders-of-countrywide-issued-rmbs-issue-notice-of-non-performance-identifying-alleged-failures-by-master-servicer-to-perform-covenants-and-agreements-in-more-than-47-billion-of-countrywide-issued-rmbs-105221854.html

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  • The banks knew that they could not continue lending to subprime and 125% LTV and it would cause them to fail, did they care? NO!
    So, do the banks care if they securities were fraudulently sold?

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  • Totally off topic, but one has to wonder how many of them got high from the smoke and also has to wonder what BS the USA government feed us about global warming when they do this

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/22/world/americas/22marijuana.html?_r=1&hp

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  • Of course there was fraud it would be naive to think otherwise.
    The scale is unlikely to be $tr though, maybe a few $bn (as much as $300bn? probably not) …and it won’t stop the world spinning, it’ll just make the average man in the street’s money worth that little bit less.
    But the real losers will be the poorest, (no one who blogs here) – think Bangladesh, Congo, Zimbabwe – that’s what’s sick – and suggesting debtors such as US ‘homeowners’ renege on their debt because they can get away with it is morally reprehensible.

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  • There is a wider theme to all of this: the trust we put in computer systems as a way to validate that someone owns something.
    A bug in the software could surely make 1 property be traded twice or counted twice in a ‘bundling up’ exercise.
    A loss of an archive of transactions is quite possible.
    The movement of staff personnel who know how to delve into the software and retrieve key facts about ownership.
    In this technology age, paper is still pretty important but. by contrast, we need to trust IT systems such as trading systems on stock exchanges. One without the other is a headache.

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  • mdmick,

    Agree – one of the problems of the cyber age is that we still don’t have a sound electronic substitute for a signed piece of paper, and for enabling such a substitute to be both securely stored yet not duplicated.

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  • And still no Flashman to dismiss the story and calm the hysteria ?

    I’m starting to get worried.

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  • Specially for you str:

    It is theoretically possible for JFK and Elvis to be still alive but they’d be too old to sing or run a government.

    For entertainment purposes, let’s briefly scrutinise this breathless conspiraloon gibberish.

    In the US, when you sign the mortgage papers, they get photo copied and sent on. The originals are stored in the broker’s files or in the local real estate office. The lenders and any subsequent owners of the paper have copies of the original. If they were asked for the original, it would take several weeks of letters and phone calls to get hold of.

    Now just imagine you are one of the hopeful plonkers who goes to a judge asking for the ‘wet’ signature.

    Mr Judge: “Are you telling me that this copy of your signature is a fake and that you weren’t given the money to buy your house?

    Mr Plonker: “No it is my signature and I did get the money

    Mr Judge: well fudge off then, you time wasting chancer

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  • general congreve says:

    @21 – I don’t think they’ll let this sink the US banking system. It’s feasible it could of course, because technically fraud has been committed and Us Lawyers are chomping at the bit to get paid for the mountain of litigation that could follow from this blowing up. I personally see some sort of federal emergency law being passed to clear the mess up, like making MERS (the Mortgage Electronic Records System) constitutionally lawful over the original paper note (although I imagine this would open up a can of worms too).

    If it does get sorted out and doesn’t bring the banks down (to be honest they have too, otherwise it’ll sink the whole global financial system), then it has still put an extra financial strain on the banks with all the extra admin trying to sort the mess out. Also note that the foreclosure process in the US in only 25% of the way through completion, i.e. there another 75% more homes to repossess on top of all the others that have already been repossessed. If the fraudclosure scandal doesn’t do it, then is the real problem in the system that will require QE2 to bail out the banks a second time.

    @ 17 “…it won’t stop the world spinning, it’ll just make the average man in the street’s money worth that little bit less.” Totally agree. What to do about it though?

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  • gc: I only responded to this nonsense because str asked me to and I can’t believe, I’m wasting any more time on it. Gullible people believe this rubbish because they desperately want to believe its true. They are fodder for the con men that publish this stuff to boost their web traffic/advertisement revenue

    “fraud has been committed”. Statements like this have to be put into context. There are a negligible number of these supposed frauds (most are just untidy paperwork) and they exist in an ocean of perfectly well transacted paperwork. The banks can easily afford to pay a handful of temps to tidy up the small amount of errant paperwork.

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  • flashman,

    are you saying that the foreclosure thing is a conspiracy and all a load of nonsense ?

    that all the court orders, stories of ‘robo-signers’ are rubbish…

    have you been with the chilean miners ?

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  • debtfree: It’s grossly exaggerated, out of context, nonsense. The vast majority of paperwork is fine. How many more of these ‘stories’ have to fizzle out before you realise that you are being taken for a mug by the owners of idiot blogs and other cynical media outlets, who are only interested in advertising revenue. When this story completely disappears in a few weeks or months time, please pause to think about how easily you were taken in, before moving on to the next barely credible pile of bull-crap

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  • With all due respect flashman, Jim Sinclair informed the foreclosure fiasco on his emailing list.

    I’m not referring specifically to this one thats been posted by devo, but if JS sends out an email detailing about the Mortgage Backed Securities and foreclosure scandal… then I sit up and listen.

    So please don’t call me mug, when your not even fit enough to tie the shoe laces of the original messenger.

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  • Thanks for appearing On this Flashman.

    The point of the article though & situation as I understand it is that the mortgages were sliced and diced so to speak so a whole mortgage hasn’t gone into a single cdo but into several. Therefore when there’s a default and the money stops flowing the cdo owners are unable to trace back to the original mortgage accurately and get their hands on the paperwork which they need to be able to foreclose.

    To add to the confusion I get the impression that mortgages have been packaged more times than they should have been.

    So some some cdo’s perhaps contain fake mortgages or mortgages that had already been divied up elsewhere.

    Perhaps it is a storm in a teacup, but given what’s been going on it really wouldn’t surprise me if something like this did turn out to have an element if truth.

    Sorry if this was beneath you and you had your time wasted.

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  • Saying you’re being taken for a mug is not the same as calling you a mug. The story is already fizzling out. The very few banks that halted their repossessions recommenced them only 10 days later. Most banks didn’t halt them at all. When this story disappears, I’ll remind you of this exchange

    Jim Sinclair is a busted flush. He used to be someone but he lost most of his his money and now earns a living giving talks on gold investing. Think about it, would he run a poxy website at his age, if he still had his fortune and credibility? In 2008 he made the following public challenge (he was getting desperate at that time). His ‘followers’ lost their shirts and he ended up skint and with egg on his face.

    “My position on timing and price is that Gold will trade at USD $1650 before the second week of January 2011.
    I am offering a $1,000,000USD wager to a financially qualified party that this will occur within the stated timeframe.”

    It’s very sad but he is widely regarded as a gold bug crank these days. It often happens to traders who lose their shirts (they become very bitter and hope for a total crash of the system as a kind of revenge).

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  • “Sorry if this was beneath you and you had your time wasted”

    That sounds a bit uncharacteristically bitter by your standards? I replied to you in good humour. I originally avoided the story because some people desperately want to believe it and my answer was bound to get them a bit worked up.

    There is a small element of truth in the story. There are always a few shenanigans and balls-ups when large sums of money are involved. However the numbers and percentages involved are almost negligible. It’s good news copy and of course the banks don’t exactly need bad publicity at the moment but other than that, it is as you say, a storm in a teacup.

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  • Well, that’s a very bold statement flashman.

    But 2011 is yet to arrive. So far he’s been spot on. Just when some were saying otherwise.

    It’s hard to know what to believe these days.

    If gold does hit $1650 by Jan 2011 and QE2 is used to bail out the foreclosure fraud, I too will also remind you of this conversation.

    All the best

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  • I’m baffled by your comments on Jim Sinclair.

    Can you please post any evidence that he lost all his money and is a crank ?

    Thanks

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  • debtfree: Don’t try to turn my post into a gold forecast contest or discussion. I couldn’t care less what gold does and I have absolutely no stance or interest in its price. I only showed Sinclair’s public bet to illustrate his erratic behaviour. No one makes wildly bombastic bets like that in public unless they are feeling a little stressed or ignored.

    The article story is already fizzling out and it is sad to see a once big guy like Sinclair dancing with the fairies.

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  • You have taken what he said out of context, I’ve been following his running commentary on the market for 8 years now and he’s been spot on. To say why do you think he runs a blog is absurd, because Rio Ferdinand is on twitter with thousands of followers, does that make him injured, washed up and broke ?

    You can’t go around calling people cranks and say they have lost all their money without any evidence to back it up.

    Neither you know or does anyone else where this foreclosure scandal will lead.

    Maybe it might fizzle out, but the cracks can only be hidden for so long.

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  • Hundreds of traders (smelling loser blood) tried to take him up on his public bet and he never accepted one of them. If you read the rest of his public bet statement, you will see that he foolishly ranted and raved about no one having the guts to take his bet. Unfortunately, he didn’t have the money or the confidence to back up his silliness when his bluff was called. Rio Ferdinand is actually washed up (his injuries are now more or less a permanent feature). That’s probably why he spends so much time on twitter trying to prepare for the next stage in his career.

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  • Flashman

    It wasn’t meant to sound bitter or twisted, It was an attempt at humour based on your response to GC @ 23.

    Cheers for coming back, as you say repos back on in most cases.

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  • str: I’m glad you cleared that up. I wasn’t sure and I’d hate you to think that I’d taken a high handed attitude to anything you posted.

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  • well flash, thanks for making me aware to the other side of the coin.

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