Monday, February 15, 2010

More bad news for would-be borrowers

Building societies warn of threat to their lending power

With all this cheap finance the newspapers talk about house prices have to go up. Don't they?

Posted by chrisch @ 05:49 PM (2649 views)
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70 thoughts on “More bad news for would-be borrowers

  • Is there no more public money that can be thrown with zero interest at these companies that provide such essential services to … erm … baby boomers’ asset portfoilios?

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  • ” that provide such essential services to … erm … baby boomers’ asset portfoilios?”

    Here we go again, baby boomer bashing…… the only contribution some people are capable of make to this site.

    Yawn.

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  • Here we go again, baby boomer bashing…… the only contribution some people are capable of make to this site.

    Oh. Sorry about that. I’ll rephrase my comment.

    Is there no more public money that can be thrown with zero interest at these companies that provide such essential services to … erm … over 50s who now own more than 4/5ths of the nation’s property ‘wealth’?

    Better, non?

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  • Here is a novel idea, why not raise the interest you pay to savers.

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  • What’s your problem with the over 50’s mate?

    Like all your generation you’re embittered, wait until you’re over 50 pal.

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  • What’s your problem with the over 50’s mate?

    You’re not being facetious with that question … are you?

    Go and read about it then ask me again if you really didn’t understand.

    No really, especially if you have kids, you really should read about what they’ve got to look forward to because of what your generation has wreaked. Not you personally, no. You collectively, certainly.

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  • Hope Paul is paying into a pension or making other non-property related provision for his dotage.

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  • Hope Paul is paying into a pension or making other non-property related provision for his dotage.

    A very large percentage of my salary, yes. That’s why I so f*&king poor I can’t afford a house!

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  • I am sure that the so called ‘baby boomers’ did not have the mental ability to foretell or plan the results of political decisions made years ago. The vast majority of boomers in this country outside the home counties do not have two sovereigns to rub together.

    Baby Boomer is one of those disgusting terms coined by Americans.

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  • I am sure that the so called ‘baby boomers’ did not have the mental ability to foretell or plan the results of political decisions made years ago.

    It never happened like that. As the demographic bulge has worked its way through, successive politicians have sought to appease the group to the exclusion of those that went before them (why pensioners are suffering from low interest rates while overborrowed boomers are basking) but most of all … more than in modern history … they are taking from those after them.

    Which incidentally, is the textbook definition of a credit boom – taking from the future to spend today. I know it’s not a comfortable feeling finding out that you are on the side of the baddies, but – ennui and mr g – don’t take it personally. But do understand that subsequent generations will pay for your collective largesse long after you are dead.

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  • @5
    I am over 60, my kids probably belong to your generation and I intend to fight tooth and nail to ensure as many of my assets as possible are passed on to to my family as I’m sure you will in due course. If you object to that, tough.

    Whilst I belong to the baby boomer generation, I have earned my money the hard way by hard work, integrity and not doing the dirty on others therefore I take exception to the snide remarks and ageism that is prevalent on this site and object to being blamed for, to use your expression, “what your generation has wreaked” as I have have wreaked f*ck all damage on your generation.

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  • Whilst I belong to the baby boomer generation, I have earned my money the hard way by hard work, integrity and …

    Tell that to a university graduate with a first who has studied hard only to find themselves working in a sandwich shop. They have no integrity or dignity because it was taken from them along with opportunities.

    Think about that. Please.

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  • A ‘Baby Boomer’ is technically defined as someone who born after the end of WW2 had their childhood in the 1950’s, now this would include my parents and their peers, strangely enough none of them that I know of have a property portfolio, a holiday home and a few of them live in rented accomodation as we a rather backwards up in the north of england.

    I therefore conclude that the ‘Boomer’ smoke screen is a cover for middle-class southerners dabbling in the financial services sector bloated economy down south and general terraced house property spiv’s of all ages of which I know a few in their late 30’s and 40’s all of which will come a cropper when interest rates rise.

    Patience is all that is required.

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  • In response to 12, your anger should be directed at successive governments who have used education, education, education to massage unemployment figures, hide the effects of an ailing economy, with the rub being to get students to fund their own education.

    Working in the engineering sector I have witnessed countless quality companies literallly raped by government purchasing policies, asset strippers, speculators and foreign takeovers, these companies would still be existance and providing quality employment for the likes of youself if our government had been more interested as the French and German governments were at the same time.

    Vent your frustration on our political classes not pensioners on a one way ticket to a wooden box, life is short and the human body is weak, property portfolios end up in wills and get sold.

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  • a cover for middle-class southerners dabbling in the financial services sector bloated economy down south and general terraced house property spiv’s of all ages of which I know a few in their late 30’s and 40’s all of which will come a cropper when interest rates rise.

    Those in their 30s will suffer and are arguably most vulnerable – those in their 40s will probably be fine because they would still be quids in even after a further 30% drop in house prices. Those in their 20s just have no-one representing their interests at all.

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  • hey Paul, how old are you?

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  • paul
    This is unlike you to snipe at older people in general. You cannot make a group of people born after the War the scapegoat for the economic ills of this country. I question your figure of 4/5 wealth owned by over 50s but don’t have time to look it up. Even if so, it clearly makes sense that older people, after many years work, will have more money than the young. But you will find that the distribution of wealth is not uniform amongst this age group; there are many poor “baby boomers”.

    The issue has nothing to do with age but everything to do with inequality, which has grown since the late 70s. Bankers, don’t forget, are mostly fairly young, yet they have an enormous share of the country’s wealth. Presumably you are fairly young too, but at least you can comfort yourself that you have time to wait for house prices to be restored to mean values. A hard-up baby boomer may not.

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  • @techieman, I am what an American would call a Gen-Xer. How about you?

    @letthemfall

    Actually it is much worse than that. Inequality has been a product of trans-generational economic infantilism – best summed up by the boomers “spending the kids’ inheritance” on skiing holidays.

    So the advantages they enjoyed were designed to enable them to pass on advantage to their kids. Only by and large, they didn’t and won’t. So root cause of the inequality that we see today (yes including the rise of the BNP, 30% unemployment among under 25s and of course unaffordable housing) is almost certainly pinned on that boomer-mentality of a desire for gratification and personal fulfilment which even their parents wouldn’t recognise in their own children.

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  • i wont f*ck about with titles Paul – i’m 47.

    A little bit too much teenage angst i think Paul. You should take yr energies and use them more productively. Whilst i appreciate some of your arguments i dont agree with most. Your jealousy will eat you up, thats quite sad really.

    LTF – its actually a lot worse than that. While i actually do agree that the older generation should give the younger ones some guidance, the question really is why do the younger generation feel that they are entitled to a dream job, because they learnt what they were told to learn and got a 1st class honours in “uni”? I say so what?

    I’m afraid we live in a world with unrealistic expectations.

    Yes young bankers (and the like) have landed on their feet, but did they have to “work” for it?As i said I’m 47 and the investment banker types i know had huge balls and yes through guile and being streetwise and brains (that they learnt after they left school and higher education) some of them made absolute fortunes. That actually enabled the younger generation to be shoed into such jobs as (like it or not) London became a centre of excellence in the financial dog eat dog world.

    Some went on to lose those fortunes either on bad deals or snorting too many lines (yes you read that right). But would they start robbing grannies to feed a drugs habit because “life is so unfair” and their share of the cake has been eaten by the older generation?

    Maybe that older generation should have a pop at their elders who fought in WW2? I mean why didnt they try and get a better deal after winning the war… what the f*ck is wrong with them!!! Didnt that generation have to deal with the legacy of the war – the horrors of it?

    Whilst i dont want to label all “youngsters” as whineing, god for nothing , lazy b’stards who spend their time enlarging their thumb muscles on the play station counsels, since thats just ageism in reverse; Paul seems to want to blame all the ills of society the older groups.

    Yes old people should do a bit of mentoring … but what would the response be to that ? “F*ck off grandad what do you know!” Well rather alot actually.

    As for your book, i’ve not read it but it sounds a bit Janet and John to me (this is the only review on Amazon someone has given it 2 stars) :

    “Mr WIlletts may have the expertise to analyse the situation but I regret that his prose style does not match his knowledge of economics. It is riddled with cliches, often crudely edited with naive grammatical errors. Some of the writing would be marked down in a 15-year old’s essay. I question too his conclusions. The position of elderly baby-boomers in this country is often pitiful; we have the lowest state pension in the advanced world. Many find it hard to keep themselves warm; they have to sell their houses to pay exorbitant costs of nursing home care. Does he realise that London Weighting-that is the extra payment to civil servants and others for working in the capital-exceeds the basic pension of hundreds of thousands of pensioners who also face the high cost of living in London? Those whose savings and income are just above the poverty level face crippling council tax costs. Mr Willetts should look more closely at the way of life of millions of aging citizens, and not just the fortunate ones who as former public servants or with posts in commerce are enjoying an index-linked pension After twelve years of a Labour government and before the present crisis the UK had the distinction of having the highest number of children living in work-less homes throughout the EU. In the table of elderly poverty we are among the poorest. Willetts has the reputation of having more brains than any other member of the Tory party – he should apply them to more careful research into the condition of baby-boomers below the income level of Tory voters.
    Disraeli’s analysis still stands – two nations, but not the ones he chooses.”

    Really Paul no one is to blame the only thing to blame is the business cycle and where we are in it. I’m truly sorry that co-incides with some people coming out of university, but i remember it was just as bad when i was first job hunting (its like there has never been a recession before!!). Perhaps you would like to live through the 3 day week?? Maybe you would prefer to kick old people in the b*llocks and cast them out of their homes onto the streets? Remember you will be might get old too one day……

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  • Paul, I’m in my 40’s and I’ve never owned a home. And yes I am suffering because of it.

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  • … and to carry on from that, my parents have worked hard all their lives, and i strongly object to some ar5e wipe implying they don’t deserve what they have amassed. They would probably (if i asked) give all of it to me. Do i want them to give me any of it? Nope not in the least (which explains why they would!) I want them to spend my “inheritance”, now stop moaning and if you feel so hard done by I suggest you do something about it.

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  • I wrote this in Feb 2008 – see 11 of my point 7 in particular http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/newsblog/2008/02/blog-poor-little-btl-investor-10517.php:

    “11. Listen to and respect both the views of and old people themselves. Be intrigued by their stories of the “old days”. Perhaps the youth have the edge relative to dot coms etc, but relative to housing forget the property developer millionaire types.”

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  • mark wadsworth says:

    Hang about here, there is

    a) proper earned income (whether you are a postman or Premier League footballer), which means you have added value, contributed to the overall wealth of the economy and been rewarded for it. That is just the way things are, we are not all born with the same luck, and

    b) then there are unearned monopoly gains (mainly property gains) that are earned ONLY because of Home-Owner-Ism generally (i.e. getting Schedule A and Dom Rates scrapped, a lucky million or so who bought council houses for tuppence ha’penny, getting a virtual ban on new builds to preserve The Hallowed Greenbelt, slumlords getting above market rents paid on ex-Council properties, bankers and mortgage brokers messing about with liar loans, subsidised interest rates, public infrastructure being paid mainly out of income taxes and not out of property taxes etc).

    These arise solely and purely because of politics, there is no underlying economic justification, and all these gains come ONLY at the expense of somebody else, which in this case is everybody under the age of 35 or so (who have either vastly overpaid for a property or still can’t afford one).

    And, as a matter of fact, most of these unearned gains have accrued to older people (now aged over 40 or 45, mainly).

    Saying this is not age-ist, it is just saying how things are.

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  • Not really techieman.

    The business cycle predicted on speculative credit of the 70s, 80s and 90s that your generation could ride through is dead.

    I don’t get eaten up or have sleepless nights from it – don’t worry – but I don’t forget it. As you say, no-one is to blame. Or perhaps even, everyone is to blame. Yes, that sounds much more palatable. No-one will be upset by that. Not for years and years at any rate.

    And by the way there is never any shortage of guidance/advice/mentoring from previous generations. Unfortunately, unlike their parents, that is all there is left for baby boomers to give.

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  • MW – so what? The world is full of inequalities. Who are you actually blaming? The people who fall in to two categories, those who accidentally took part in it or who realised what was happening and took advantage of it? Or the successive governments – which you seem to be saying.

    If the former then i am afraid yes it is ageism. If people vastly overpay for property are we not saying that they have that responsibility? Arent we saying that there has been and will be a correction, for that very reason.

    Aside from some of the examples you provide, i would say that the great majority of the people aged around 50, live in their home and don’t really think about what its cost. The majority feel sorry for their children struggling to find the mortgage, but i will accede that they think that, that is just the way it is and property will always eventually go up in price because “it always has”.

    Its really for the younger generation to refuse to hit the offers. That is THEIR responsibility and what THEY should do about where they find themselves.

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  • Oh, and here’s a better review from a more reliable source:

    Clash of generations

    As I say, do read up. It’ll be an education (and you’ll only have to pay a tenner for it!)

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  • That is THEIR responsibility and what THEY should do about where they find themselves.

    Thanks for the advice. No really. Thanks.

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  • Speaking as a 35 yr old who was too young to catch the boat and too smart to jump on board when he could (2006), I gotta say MW is right.

    My parents (late 60s) were too old to bother with BTL as they had enough income.

    My mates have either overpaid, are renting, or were lucky enough to have parents who bought them houses at uni in the mid 90s.

    The ones I knew who were making out like bandits are in the 40-50yr old bracket – old enough to have £££ and young enough to want to take a gamble on property in 200-2004.

    Do I feel a resentment towards them – yep I did, but I don’t now, because a large number of them that I know are getting laid off from their day jobs.

    I think I mainly resented them at the time for their ‘I’m ok jack and scr3w you’ attitude – at least that was the majority of the ones I knew!

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  • “The business cycle predicted on speculative credit of the 70s, 80s and 90s that your generation could ride through is dead.”

    The cycle is part of a bigger cycle. As you know i believe in the K-Wave, which predicts what you say. Yes I agree “you” were born at the “wrong” time. But its not your parents fault is it, either singularly or collectively as a generation.

    If your parents “spend” your inheritance – well tough sh1t. Get over it.

    As for the government doing what they have done – i am the first to admit – yes thats wrong and we are mortgaing our children’s futures. Also that is why i want HPs to fall, so that yes the children can afford a roof over their head. But i dont agree that its one generation to blame over another.

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  • But i dont agree that its one generation to blame over another.

    So you see the arguments are logical and valid, but you don’t agree because … turkeys don’t vote for Christmas … or … ?

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  • “That is THEIR responsibility and what THEY should do about where they find themselves.

    Thanks for the advice. No really. Thanks.”

    yep just like we had to – as i said. And yes you are Welcome Paul! :-).

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  • yep just like we had to – as i said. And yes you are Welcome Paul! :-).

    I will rob you in your sleep. I will wear a hoodie.

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  • 🙂

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  • Paul here is a deal – i will read the Willetts book IF you promise to read up on nikolai kondratieff and the K-Wave. He was actually executed for what he believed in – but hey he probably deserved it didnt he!!

    I dont agree with the personalisation of the argument thats all. I agree its happened, but because of the K-Wave it was going to happen sometime. I just know that had it happened to “us turkeys” i dont think i would have been wasting my time arguing with some old codger about it…. but maybe that’s just the attitude of people from my generation?

    I wish you luck – i really do – but be positive and stop wallowing in self pity, because thats how you come across.

    Less than an attractive trait.

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  • “I will rob you in your sleep. I will wear a hoodie.” You better hope i dont wake up….. cause i’m still a bit tasty!

    Best you leave it a few years ….. sonny.

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  • I do not agree to the bargain. I will not read about K-Waves. I don’t take advice from baby boomers any more. It’s my new resolution.

    No self pity here, I’m ready to go out robbing in my hoodie.

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  • ok ill give you my address….. best you get heavily tooled up and bring round a few mates, you’ll need ’em!

    Its Hamilton Palace, near Uckfield, Sussex. 😉

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  • “I don’t take advice from baby boomers any more.” Yes be your own man, theres my advice…. laddie.

    anyway i’ll have to leave it there… us old timers get a bit tired…..goodnight……ZZzzzzzzz

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  • ok ill give you my address….. best you get heavily tooled up and bring round a few mates, you’ll need ’em!

    Actually we’ll do much worse than that. I’ll facebook my scally hoodrat mates and organise a rave on your front lawn.

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  • anyway i’ll have to leave it there… us old timers get a bit tired…..goodnight……ZZzzzzzzz

    Sleep tight. You old codger. We’ll keep the music down. For a while.

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  • After all that, the post was about building societies, does anyone see a future for them?

    For what it’s worth, I do.

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  • 🙂

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  • 🙂

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  • @ mr g

    I dont think Building Socs can survive in their present format and expect lots more consolidation.

    This from todays Moneymarketing

    Building societies are close to agreeing a deal with regulators for a new investment instrument that would allow them to meet stringent capital rules without losing their mutual status. The Financial Times reports that the building society sector is close to reaching an agreement on the creation of “mutual ordinary deferred shares”. Mods would be like bonds with a capped coupon but be loss-bearing from a regulatory perspective. The new instruments would allow building societies to meet European capital requirements, which is problematic because they are owned by members and not shareholders, meaning they cannot convert debts into equity in hard times.

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  • I think building societies will become the undeserving victims of the crunch. Undeserving because they have been far more prudent than the investment banks that created the boom and bust.

    On the other hand, they did benefit significantly from the boom …

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  • hey techie

    All this talk about age is a manifestation of the blame culture. Blame is either valid because there has been incompetence, or a statment of ignorance – because people don’t understand a situation.

    People will take advantage where they can. That’s why other folks lend them money – they earn a percentage. Peolle buy house because someone will buy it off them so they earn a percentage as well. The government earns a percentage because they get more in in heritance tax, stamp duty etc as the price of property rises. It’s the gravy train. Noone thinks about the outcome because noone in a house buying position has until now lost out.

    People need to see that the property market needs disincentivisation – that’s in the interests of everyone in the future. Trouble is, lawmakers are in the here and now. Turkeys might not vote for Christmas isn’t that valid. I’d say Pigs, Sheep, Chickens and everything else does so the Turkey is well stuffed (ahem)

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  • I’m with Paul on this, but I am not going to be half as polite as Paul, I have no idea why anyone over the age of 45 needs to buy a house. Unless you are divorced and somebody screwed you over and kept the house there is no excuse for already not owning at age 45+. The time for planning a life is when you are young, that is when opportunities should be available. You lot have had your time, if you haven’t made anything of yourselves by now then accept the fact that you are well past it, your best years are gone, the women are gone, your earning potential is gone, your dreams are mostly gone, all that is left is to drive to the gym in your 4×4 or 20k bmw looking smug but sad. That’s all, over and definitely out of here.

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  • No idea what this discussion is about. Andrew sounds like you’ve had some old dude mack your girlfriend. Sore one!

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  • Interesting… from Andrew

    If this is typical for what people think in the UK, then there is huge resentment as a result of the crass politics in here in the UK towards supporting homeownerism. The fact that Andrew makes hugely naive comment is almost irrelevant. People move house for a few reasons – something to do with growing kids (average age of parents is increasing), job moves/loss, immigration, too much debt – the list is endless.

    I find it alarming people think you have plans when you’re 20-30, get a job buy a house and then sit there…. for ever. This is a Victorian ideal coming from the young.

    However do they manage on the continent? People don’t buy houses until they are about 45-50 just so they can move around, don’t have a mortgage, can enjoy experience of different jobs and countries.

    We are soooooo indoctrinated here in the UK it’s untrue. I had hoped that youth brings new ideas. Like: How do we change this trend? What can be done to make housing in the UK as affordable as anywhere else. Take Germany – largest economy in Europe. Just look at what you get for your money in property for what is supposed to be “expensive” Euroland. Average salaries there are higher than here. Property is a far higher quality and about half the price. There is a huge manufacturing base even though so-called financial innovation lives abroad on an Island with people wearing bowler hats. Public transport works. …

    We’ve got to have a serious review about housing in the UK. My view – as I’ve mentioned – is capital gains tax on first homes. I’ll bet Andrew and others like him either don’t know this, or don’t think it’s a problem. We have a tax-free cash cow in the UK that all people fiddle about in. MPs included. Interestingly, the expenses committee are talking about clawing back some of the capital gain. Now just extend that to ALL homes.

    Look at it this way (Andrew), if you didn’t have to pay tax on say buying and selling a relatively limited good – it would be a huge boost to that industry. You could hoard it to make money, you could sell it for what you liked. People would have to pay the price. Look at the price of Trabant cars in Germany pre and post GDR days. They cost a kings ransome pre 1989. The young were mad angry that they couldn’t afford a car. 1990 – the value plummeted when the state disappeared.

    Property first home (most people) pay no tax on gains only in the UK. Can we really be so surprised we have created a fat cat industry around it??

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  • forgot the un-italic

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  • Rats, I missed all the fun last night. That’s because I’m pushing 60 and can’t cope with too many late nights. Also, Mrs Doff (another ‘past it’ boomer with no earning potential) likes to go to bed early as she gets up at 5 am to drive 120 miles to her overpaid managerial job.

    Anyway, I was going to respond to Paul and Andrew’s posts with verbose indignation, but I think Bellwether’s concise remark does the job far better.

    P.S Andrew, you’re out of touch mate. The Beemer I smugly and sadly drive around in cost more than double the amount you quote.

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  • Paul, although i might disagree with him, does have a point (i just think he is shooting in the wrong direction). Andrew – regardless of politeness or otherwise, doesnt. Much too prescriptive of life.

    You are born, you get married, you buy a house, you have kids, you pay off your mortgage, you move to a smaller house, you retire and live happily ever after.

    Only someone that hasnt lived for long enough can come up with this kind of thinking. Youth wasted on the young as opposed to experience being a comb which nature gives to men when they are bald.

    Its interesting when Andrew you get a little older (though not necessarily wiser) and life has kicked you in the b0llocks a few times… or not… you may change your tun… or you may not.

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  • mark wadsworth says:

    Hang about here, I am 44, I made handsome amounts of money from the house price boom, I’m not complaining or bitter personally, so what?

    But I have never been a Home-Owner-Ist. I have never opposed planning permission for anything. I have never asked for bail outs or subsidies just because my name is mentioned on the Land Register etc. I have never complained about Council Tax (which is a very modest tax indeed) and so on.

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  • The comment that hits home to me – and the widest ranging – is growlers about the blame culture, if you can’t get what you want it’s someone else’s fault.

    Paul & Andrew, if too intrusive ignore the question but I’d be interested to know how the older generation in your families are fixed and how this influences your thinking.

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  • okay p. doff, here is your chance to respond but I wouldn’t say with with justified indignation.

    If your car cost you twice as much you have no problems paying monthly housing costs or even buying into the property market, so what are you doing here? There are plenty of real life social clubs out there that you could join and meet real people. There are many young people who have trouble paying their bills and rent, I started reading this site for insight into why we are in the ridiculous situation where house prices were already high circa 2001 then doubled again by around 2005 and then kept on rising, I wanted to get some info as to why this enormous bubble simply refuses to burst. It is mostly older people that have property, most of them want to hang on to their properties to pay for their old age, something they should have taken care of without having to use their house.

    Again if you are close to 60, what are you waiting for, take the advice of some of the others here and just “go out and enjoy life”, and don’t worry about where you live. The point about the car being sad is that have you noticed how people that really have money don’t need to buy a big car ? Also by close to age 60 you should have matured into not needing a fast, flash, big or powerful car, just go for something sensible, like old people used to.

    You guys are complaining about hypocrisy on a daily basis and I can see plenty of it coming from some on this site.

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  • to answer your question Nomad, my parents could afford to buy a house on a single salary in the early 70’s. That is a 3 bed semi on 1 salary in London. Now tell me it is not more difficult for younger people now. Things were tight as they were for most people back then, most people I know are on above average salaries and still cannot buy, it is as simple as that.

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  • “the blame culture, if you can’t get what you want it’s someone else’s fault.”

    In other words, the “I want it and I want it now” culture where everything is handed to you on a plate and you don’t have to work hard and save for things. When you can’t afford it now, you blame someone else.

    Crass hypocrisy.

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  • mr g, it is not an I want it now culture, it is not a blame culture either.

    Some of us could save for the next 20 years, prices are too high, so we cannot afford it now or later.

    There is no hypocrisy in that theory.

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  • [email protected] “Some of us could save for the next 20 years, prices are too high, so we cannot afford it now or later. There is no hypocrisy in that theory.”

    Agreed and I feel genuinely sorry for anyone in that situation (I’m not patronising by the way), house prices bear no resemblance to the earnings of the average person and therefore their ability to afford a house.

    What I object to is the way that my generation (60+) are all tarred with the same brush and blamed for the obscene level of house prices, we’re not all avaricious barstewards you know and some of us do have a social conscience.

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  • What you say Andrew is irrefutable, some excellent comments under the Shelter article posted by freemanphil. But I won’t accept the blame.

    I’ve owned 2 houses, one end terrace bought at the same time as your folks and then an extended semi bought after I’d shared in a successful business for several years. I didn’t see much of my kids through the pressures of work and now my son, who runs a business, takes the opposite view and time spent with his daughters is non-negotiable.

    Fortunately, for the reasons that make you scream, I am able to invest in his business enabling his time there to be spent more effectively.

    Swings and roundabouts.

    Incidentally both my sons have mortgages that make my eyes water.

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  • “There is no hypocrisy in that theory.”

    just resentment

    You have no idea how pdoff has earned his wealth, so what right have you to tell him on what or how to spend it?

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  • techieman, you also have no idea how he earnt his “wealth” so why choose to defend him ?
    I don’t think that someone driving a 40k car has financial problems enough to be on a site discussing house prices, he can buy an even bigger car if it makes him feel better, my personal opinion is that it is sad to see an ageing man in a flash car of any description, it should have been a case of been there done that, otherwise sorry missed the boat, let it go old man.

    My point is that, other people are struggling and struggling to make sense of what is going on in all of this. Granted, the powers that be, the VI’s whatever you choose to call them play their part, but the other half are ordinary people, ordinary but greedy, shortsighted and inconsiderate, who just happened to have houses available to them at a reasonable multiple but now seem quite content to stick with the status quo if it benefits them but completely screws everybody else.

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  • Andrew i guess it really doesnt actually matter how he earnt his wealth…. my point is its his wealth and he can choose how he spends it. I say good luck to those lottery winners, but i am sure unless they give a certain percentage of it away to some “deserving cause” you would be critical of them too. I cant understand why anyone shouldnt be on a HP site discussing them, we are all entitled to our opinions after all…. or dont you subscribe to that democratic viewpoint?

    Your personal opinion is exactly that perhaps his Beemer is an X 5 or similar, and maybe he drives it because its reliable and comfortable or maybe he just likes it! In any case whatever his reason really what difference does that make? It just strikes me as very odd to have a go at someone because of the car they drive… its all a personal choice. Whatever you drive is up to you. You really just come across as someone with alot of jealousy who needs to take it out on someone.

    Personally i want HPs to fall, but its an academic issue more than anything else, inasmuch as high HPs are a waste of productive resources, that should be employed in other capital expenditure.

    If someone works hard and makes a ton of money i admire them, even if they are in property and have learnt and played the cycle then fair dues, if they overstay their welcome and dont get out then no i dont think they should be bailed out. And i have no axe to grind really because a very small % of my net wealth has been predicated on the rise in HPs.

    To label the older generation as uncaring selfish idiots, is just the same (as Paul alludes to) as labelling the youth as knife welding hoodies. OF course there are some people like that (and probably more in both camps since old mother thatcher turned up), but i suppose it just depends on your up bringing and experiences. Prejudice is an ugly word, whoever is pronouncing it.

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  • OK Andrew @12-02pm, I’ll indulge you.
    Correct, I now have no problems paying housing costs – but that wasn’t always the case. Like most young single people I started out renting (a room in a shared house) because I couldn’t afford to buy a home on my salary, and the ‘want it now’ debt culture wasn’t prevalent in those days.

    So what am I doing here? I came to this site because I earned a living in the property field and it was in my interest to keep abreast of what was going on in the market. I’m still here because I remain interested in property and financials (and also for a bit of light relief).

    I don’t think I have time to join any more clubs, thanks – I’m neglecting some of the ones I’m already a member of.

    I don’t need to ‘hang on to my property to pay for my old age’. I have made alternative provision for that. There will come a time, however, when the maintenance of this place becomes too much for me to manage physically and I will downsize – but not yet.

    ‘What am I waiting for? – go out and enjoy life.’ Well, I’m doing my best, however I’m not going to be drawn into divulging what activities I’m involved in or what foreign holidays I take each year. That might make you even more resentful 🙂

    Oh, and the car thing. Yes, I did the flashy bit as a juvenile when bird pulling was important – Triumph GT6, MGB GT, Porsche, BMW etc but then got married, bought a house and ended up driving an Escort 1.3, Austin Metro 1.0 and later a company Ford Mondeo. I’m sorry if my current choice offends you, but after many mid-life years of being sensible I think I have earned it. Anyway, 1) I can afford it. 2) It’s comfortable. 3) I can fit two mountain bikes in the back. 4) It’s heavy/powerful enough to tow the boat.

    Like you, I used to think anyone over the age of forty was a washed-up, useless old [email protected], but believe me, when you get there you will think differently. My neighbour is 73 and he owns and races a Lotus Exige, so we don’t all hobble round in Zimmer frames and, disgusting as it may seem, some of us still even have sex!!!

    Good day.

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  • Remember Paul and Andrew – I think pdoff makes the point we have all been exactly where you are. Its just what if anything you do about it thats the issue. Yes in some ways its harder “now” – and i would agree it IS unfair i mean “now” in a loose sense, but in some ways its easier “now” too.

    In my fathers day he was a grocer and there was no Tesco or Sainsbury’s but when they came to town – did he say well thats it – i will have to rely on the state , or did he look for something else to do, and without the benefit of a masters degree or even GCSE passes?!?!

    Whatever you say about the BTLrs they took a risk when BTL first came in, the fact that the johnny come latelys have come unstuck is merely how it is. Of course looking back on it, it was probably a no-brainer, but at the time lots of people wouldnt have dreamed of taking that risk and we can all be rich with hindsight.

    I am afraid nobody owes you a living chaps.

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  • at Andrew at 64:

    My point is that, other people are struggling and struggling to make sense of what is going on in all of this. Granted, the powers that be, the VI’s whatever you choose to call them play their part, but the other half are ordinary people, ordinary but greedy, shortsighted and inconsiderate, who just happened to have houses available to them at a reasonable multiple but now seem quite content to stick with the status quo if it benefits them but completely screws everybody else.

    That’s my point but from a different viewpoint.

    People, I’m afraid, are part of the “self-preservation society” because we’re human. You can’t blame people for their humanity. Just because I find a 35-year old female attractrive that I thought was ancient when I was 25 doesn’t make me short-sighted.

    Blame Governments for not dealing with it. They are meant to govern with the “public interest” as the objective. We let them get away with a policy of rampant house price inflation. There’s plenty of policy to make sure fruit and veg is measured to huge degrees of focus. Just imagine if you had 10 different ways of measuring the price of beer. You’d be none the wiser what it really was. What have we got with property??

    Let’s measure it properly and call it what it is: unjustified rampant inflation.

    I think you’ll agree with that point at least? 🙂

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  • Can we keep this discussion going and reach the ton (100 comments)?

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  • Pdoff loved your response @3.07pm

    All this generation bashing stuff is a little bit sad really, but hardly unsurprizing in the current climate.
    The bank bailout and government policy is certainly getting peoples backs up and rightly so, but all this blaming the “boomers” is silly.

    There are are plenty of Gen X and Y’s that have large property portfolio’s they aquired during the boom, are they not more deserving of your flak Paul and Andrew?

    Techieman

    plenty of wise words from you, however your comments “the investment banker types i know had huge balls and yes through guile and being streetwise and brains”

    Give me a break, i don’t work in the city, never have but have met plenty of these guys through friends of friends and have come to my own conclusions about them, and there not that special, great company on a stag do or night out granted.
    Without the oporttunities of the City i imagine they would have taken on other risky paths to riches, thats just the type of people they tend to be, i reckon most of them would be involved in some sort of criminality.
    same differance i suppose.

    Anyway back to the Baby Boomer thing i was listening to radio 2 a couple of months back and they was talking about these labels and the dates i seem to remember where anyone born between 1945 and 1965 is a “boomer” after 1965 your gen x and then i can’t remember the dates for gen Y and whatever was after that??

    Its all a load of [email protected] in my view, just media labels that mean nothing, Paul and Andrew you need to Chill out and have a re-think on this.

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  • Fair comments sold out. A bit of a generalisation on my part that you picked me up on, however to maintain balance i did mention ” a few lines” so your remark “be involved in some sort of criminality” can strike a chord! But some of them were very, shall we just say, “driven” :-).

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