Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009

Would you adam and eve it!

Times: Thrifty families accused of prolonging the recession

Lovely confused and contradictory article that in one sentence bangs on about the virtues of Keynes and how bad saving is for the economy and in the next reveals that the UK consumer on average carries debts of 180% of net disposable income, a figure that is the highest in Western countries!

Posted by enuii @ 10:54 PM (2748 views)
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45 Comments

1. crunchy said...

phdinbubbles

I am still waiting for your reply.

You shouldn't start things you are unable to finish.

I don't let nosey keyboard bullies off the hook that easily, so answer my straight forward question in the relevent thread please.

I look forward to your feeble reply. Please continue!

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:33PM Report Comment
 

2. novice pete said...

Ben Read, an economist at the Centre for Economic and Business Research, said: “Everyone borrowed too much and are paying the price. People need to save much more, and this will act as a drag on recovery.”

I didn't borrow anything but i'm certainly paying the price.

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:44PM Report Comment
 

3. crunchy said...

phdinbubbles

Crunchy & Maurice Strong are laughing at you! LOL

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:12AM Report Comment
 

4. markj69 str05 said...

Problem is the only ones able to save are the wealthy minority. They can no doubt still afford their luxury items. But that won't keeep the economy going alone. The many middle income families aspiring to become/appear wealthier, and enjoying a richer life style (Of which there are many more), are probably franticly paying down their mortgages and other borrowing. Thus, not contributing to the economic recovery. Then there are the working class. Many of which are also paying down their mortgages whilst they can. (IE interest rates low and they/we still have a job). Can't see much contribution to ER here either. And finally the under class, those poor buggers that the rest of the country would rather not know about (Out of sight, out of mind).

Seems to me that those needed to create the ER are those that can not afford to. Bit of a paradox.

And it doesn't matter how much money the gov't throw at the problem now, people just do not have the savings, equity, or potential salary increases, to sustain a recovery of any sort.

The markets need to find their own level. Settle down without external influences. Then and only then will we stabilize and a recovery begin.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:23AM Report Comment
 

5. markj69 str05 said...

Seems like the gov't have based their strategy on a dodgy market trader.

Del Boy = Economy
Vendors = General population
Rodney and uncle Albert = BOE (QE)

Rodney and Unc posing as vendors, pretending to buy-in to the 'scam'. To think there might be someone saying 'I know, lets throw a gazillion pound at the economy and maybe the sheeple will do the same'. Do they really think we have thousands of pounds stuffed in our matresses?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:37AM Report Comment
 

6. crunchy said...

4. markj69 str05 Agree, but how can you be so ungreatful?

The wealthy minority are raising borrowing rates if they are kind enough to loan you your own money and we now have the

Health Care Bill and Carbon Tax. Hey, if we get any weaker they may be able to help us in other areas too. Just imagine!

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:40AM Report Comment
 

7. markj69 str05 said...

@crunchy.. They don't lend ME any money, not yet anyway. I'm sat watching them lend what should be my interest on savings, to other people at a stupidly low rate.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:46AM Report Comment
 

8. crunchy said...

Oh, how I wished it was that honest. The Del Boy Economy was harmless, because all they ever wanted was to be millionaires.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:54AM Report Comment
 

9. markj69 str05 said...

The more I think about my last comment, the more frustrated and pissed off i get.

I guess that inderectly, what I expected to earn in interest on my savings, is actually paying off someone elses mortgage. IE what they expected to pay in interest to service their debt, is now being used to pay-down their borrowing.

To think that some irresponsible dumbf@@ks probably borrowed far more than they could afford to, and end up with debts at stupidly low rates. And the sensible ones are footing the bill.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:03AM Report Comment
 

10. markj69 str05 said...

Miwyonairs!

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:07AM Report Comment
 

11. crunchy said...

7. markj69 str05 So that's a few ways they are getting you.

1) Bailout

2) Low saving interest rate.

3) Having to work later in life to pay off your mortgage.

4) Having to rent whilst waiting for your own home.

5) Perhaps lower wages.

6) Energy/Oil and Food inflation.

7) Carbon Tax

I could carry on, but I would get called a conspiraloon by 'phdinbubbles.' He seems to think what is happening is by coincidence. LOL

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:08AM Report Comment
 

12. fallingbuzzard said...

#enuil, she's a barrister. one wonders why she wastes her life as an economics journalist for rupert murdoch.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:13AM Report Comment
 

13. markj69 str05 said...

Thanks for pointing those out to me. I have been only too aware of how I am being let down by those in power.

I believe society needs a multi-layered class. But, I do think too many people were able to make too much money, and it all became an uncontrollable beast (Unregulated financial industry). If no-one keeps an eye on the cookie jar, and keeps greedy children in check, then all the cookies will disapear, and you'll have a lot of fat kids.

I also beleive, that the sheeple do not need to be driven into the ground, in order to keep them under control.

And to coin a 2ronnies gag - 'I know my place'.

As for conspiracies, i'm not convinced, but keep an open mind.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:23AM Report Comment
 

14. crunchy said...

enuii...Lovely confused and contradictory article that in one sentence bangs on about the virtues of Keynes and how bad saving is for the economy and in the next reveals that the UK consumer on average carries debts of 180% of net disposable income, a figure that is the highest in Western countries!

I think we need a massive global restructuring with an unstoppable (yet favourable to the status quo) agenda to push it through.

Now seems the time to do it.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:25AM Report Comment
 

15. crunchy said...

13. markj69 str05 said..."As for conspiracies, i'm not convinced, but keep an open mind." Good man!

"I also beleive, that the sheeple do not need to be driven into the ground, in order to keep them under control."

'I know my place'

Would you 'know your place' if life got alot harder?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:32AM Report Comment
 

16. crunchy said...

13. markj69 str05

I'm asking because, so many people and global companies rely on credit which seems to be tightening. This is of some concern to me.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:40AM Report Comment
 

17. markj69 str05 said...

A poor quality of life, a life that 'got a lot harder', it's the same as being 'driven into the ground'. Those that experience this and have been let down by the governing powers have every right to complain, and i'm sure would make their place well known, if only there were a mechanism available to them to do it.

When talking about the rich, 'the need of the few is greater than the need of the many'.
When talking about the poor, 'the need of the few is unimportant'.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:41AM Report Comment
 

18. markj69 str05 said...

I wish to make it clear, before i get castrated, my last comment is not my own personal view. Just what I believe are the views of the wealthy minority.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:45AM Report Comment
 

19. markj69 str05 said...

Off now. Good chatting.

Look forward to finding out why you're so concerned about - 'so many people and global companies rely on credit which seems to be tightening'. That's just life isn't it? peeks and troughs. And if you go by hpi, this trough isn't that bad, well not yet anyway. We'll just have to keep tightening our belts.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:52AM Report Comment
 

20. crunchy said...

17. markj69 str05 Have you ever thought about what a world would be like if everyone was either poor, rich or super rich?

Goodnight.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 02:04AM Report Comment
 

21. Urbanbear said...

Keynes was wrong in his prime, his ideas are sub-prime and defaulting now!

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 03:46AM Report Comment
 

22. devo said...

The basic premise of the article is correct: if consumer spending drops, the recession will continue.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 07:51AM Report Comment
 

23. crunchy said...

21. devo

Just as the spiral of debt got out of control, is there not a possibility that the contraction of credit will follow suit?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 08:08AM Report Comment
 

24. devo said...

absolutely

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 08:15AM Report Comment
 

25. alan said...

Folks, I think we missed the thrust of the article.

...We should go out and by lots of grotty stuff we don't want or need just to prop up the economy!

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 08:32AM Report Comment
 

26. devo said...

alan, your sarcasm is duly noted.

If your point of view becomes embedded across the UK, we will never get out of recession.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 08:42AM Report Comment
 

27. crunchy said...

24.

That depends on the manufacturer.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 08:52AM Report Comment
 

28. paranoia blue said...

Unfortunately, the realisation of a totally flawed, sustainable, economic model is slowly becoming apparent to most.
There are a few remaining who will be dragged kicking, and screaming that it is all the fault of the "doom and gloomers."

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 09:04AM Report Comment
 

29. crunchy said...

24, There is quality stuff that can break weak economies.

Perhaps grotty stuff is good.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 09:06AM Report Comment
 

30. crunchy said...

27, doom and gloomers or baby boomers?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 09:09AM Report Comment
 

31. crunchy said...

"Thrifty families accused of prolonging the recession"

How about "Thrifty banks accused of prolonging the recession"

back to a spiralling of credit contraction. What if the economy weakens further and financial investment continues to move to safer heavens and those heavens have a further negative effect on purchasing power and the efficiency of production?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 09:20AM Report Comment
 

32. paul said...

I'm quite sure paedophiles think it wrong that everyone doesn't love children the way they do. Doesn't make their opinions right though.

PS. Yes, I did just compare the article writer to a paedophile.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 09:26AM Report Comment
 

33. crunchy said...

In the banking bailouts did we not forget to bail out the 'too big to fail' public economy?

Did we pay for our own demise, or for a new global era we still have yet to fund?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 09:30AM Report Comment
 

34. crunchy said...

31. paul

Focus on the questions please, or are they too challenging?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 09:32AM Report Comment
 

35. paul said...

32. @crunchy

No, I'd rather concentrate on the article, thanks.

Crunchy, you're turning into a nutter.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 09:39AM Report Comment
 

36. crunchy said...

My comments are relavent to the article if it was not spun. I am so nutty that I'm going to vote UKIP. There is no other choice.

"Thrifty families accused of prolonging the recession"

How about "Thrifty banks accused of prolonging the recession"

back to a spiralling of credit contraction. What if the economy weakens further and financial investment continues to move to safer heavens and those heavens have a further negative effect on purchasing power and the efficiency of production?

In the banking bailouts did we not forget to bail out the 'too big to fail' public economy?
Did we pay for our own demise, or for a new global era we still have yet to fund?

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 09:47AM Report Comment
 

37. crunchy said...

Does anyone not notice the lack of changes to the regulating of financial markets with regards to Derivatives and short selling.

We still haven't ruled out the possibillity of the too big to fail syndrome, yet are trying to introduce a catalyst for the next bubble.

Can our economy afford to lose further industry to offshoring that will have little effect on the objective? I can only see chaos.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:03AM Report Comment
 

38. mander said...

I guess assets are not inflating fast enough to justify spending and borrowing.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:05AM Report Comment
 

39. cat and canary said...

..the article is utter crap!!!!

... lets turn the author's argument on its head..

> the UK is a net importer, and we don't manufacture that much anymore, so spending less will not necessarily cost British jobs, apart from part-time jobs in retail! Germans and Chinese might not like it though!

> Brits have been complaining about "Rip off Britain" for years, and surprise surprise, we are now the most indebted nation in Western economies. Time for a change?!

> and most importantly, Britain does NOT have the greatest government-spending, several Western nations have worse as a % of GDP. Buts its such a big problem in the UK, because the public doesn't have the means to pay-off (via tax etc) the government spending. Hence by paying off our personal debt, and by saving more, we are placing yourself better to withstand future tax rises, and thus making it easier for the UK to pay off its government spending, and recover in the long term.


Let the greedy manufacturers drop their prices!

...the author's greedy screams come too late, the British public is already very aware of the need to save and pay down debt... and we will become a better place for it. So the authors can fluff-off

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:06AM Report Comment
 

40. crunchy said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1waGanUNt0

Call me a nutter, but is this not insider trading by a 'possible' traitor. What price is gold now? Nice trade, golden handshake.

Paul, you wonder why I ask difficult questions.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:21AM Report Comment
 

41. braindeed said...

I never read the article - whatever can be new in the argument of ever diminishing return?
Best just strap yourselves in as the slow-motion train crash unfolds.......wherever you're sitting, it's going to sting.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:24PM Report Comment
 

42. crunchy said...

41. braindeed

'Ever diminishing return.' You have a polite turn of phrase for such global gravitas.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:48PM Report Comment
 

43. crunchy said...

Ever increasing frustration. That's the real sting comrade.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 01:06PM Report Comment
 

44. Major Des Aster. said...

@20

Have you ever thought about what a world would be like if everyone was either poor, rich or super rich?

Yeah, I have.

either Underweight, Overweight or Obese.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 05:49PM Report Comment
 

45. Henrylow said...

There's a movement to radically change California government, by getting rid of career politicians and chopping their salaries in half. A group known as Citizens for California Reform wants to make the California legislature a part time time job, just like it was until 1966.

latest trend

Monday, December 28, 2009 06:14AM Report Comment
 

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