Friday, December 11, 2009

Grim stats

Poorest half of UK owns just 9% of wealth

Shows a shocking disparity in wealth in this so-called developed country. Of particular interest here is the figure of 6% of households who own a second home.

Posted by letthemfall @ 09:38 AM (3875 views)
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86 thoughts on “Grim stats

  • It is also the case that no more than 20% of the population have wealth greater than 5 times the national average

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  • the number cruncher says:

    There is a lot of hidden wealth and the real figures are much worse than these as they only represent wealth that is ‘known’.

    The fundamental problems in our society exists in the uneven distribution of wealth and the lack of taxation of that wealth. Until we have a system that taxes wealth instead of work, we shall always have poverty and the social problems that go with poverty.

    If you look at the countries that do tax wealth, as well as work, you will see lower poverty, crime and such measures as teenage pregnancy and illiteracy.

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  • Revolution Revolution Revolution…Be patient, In time, it will come..

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  • 3. happy mondays

    America is the place and it will not be pretty. Cops v the wrong men and it will all break loose.

    England? Are you kidding? The bought off lazy pussy’s who can be malgamated into a man-bear-pig. lol

    Google bye!

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  • amalgamated, even.

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  • general congreve says:

    @2 – I plan to be in that top 6% by the time this mess is over and the govt. can go jump if they think they’re taxing my investment profits to give to the feckless chavs.

    But speaking pragmatically, over here in Sweden where I am now, the socialist policies (50% income tax for average wage earners) seem to have resulted in a much fairer society. I see it as a sort of upmarket Stalinism – most people live in small apartments but they’re less grey than Russian the version. Also the Swedes don’t seem to have our problems of the burgeoning chav underclass.

    The question is, did Swedish socialism stop Chavism here, or is Chavism just something that is peculiar to UK society and cannot be eradicated no matter how much money you through at the problem? As they say, ‘You can take the girl out of the estate, but you can’t take the estate out of the girl’.

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  • general congreve says:

    @6 – Typo – the Russian version.

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  • [email protected] “is Chavism just something that is peculiar to UK society and cannot be eradicated no matter how much money you through at the problem?”

    Yes, this is something that is peculiar to the UK caused by 40 years of dumbing down in every walk of life and which I fear is irreversible.

    You don’t find the same kind of attitudes and behaviour in other European countries or even the USA.

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  • Far more dangerous are the more knowing, who are unaware of an ambitious plan to wipe out vast populations of the third world off the back of fraud and to tax and control the living daylights out of the remaining. Give me a useless eating chav any day, as they at least have an excuse.

    Viva Life! Viva the truth! Viva freedom! Viva to the final end of BS!

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  • But for the poorest half rising house prices should not come as good news even if they own a property because their children wiil have to pay for all inflated wealth of this country and not the children of the other half. So should listen to Vince…

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  • 10. mander said…’because their children’

    Typo…because their child. Remember they breath? Research, research one child policy and the like.

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  • To breathe is now the crime of the century.

    Viva to the final end of BS! and the end of big oil and big banks.

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  • To call someone a “chav” is to adopt an arrogant superiority. Okay, we all do it to some extent. The chav or underclass culture is a product of poverty and philistinism. Sweden makes strenuous efforts to ensure a more equitable society – hence their high public expenditure – but perhaps they are also a less narrow-minded society.

    Some of the above comments show that wealth is no barrier to being a philistine, of which the UK would seem to have many.

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  • cat and canary says:

    IMO,

    rampant chavism is a by-product of having too many astronomically super-wealthy people in a country.

    The only problems with Chavs, is that they don’t know who to direct their anger at.

    Perhaps they should aim it towards those who say “I plan to be in that top 6% by the time this mess is over and the govt. can go jump if they think they’re taxing my investment profits to give to the feckless chavs.”

    …i find this really insulting. I’ve clawed my way up from being working class poverty from birth, through to middle class and now middle income.

    These sort of comments show no understanding of how hard it is to battle tooth and nail in a society that is super-biased towards the over-bearing rich classes.

    Lucky for me I was given the gift of brains to claw my way up. The people I left behind had no such luck. And they are still there, slaving away paying rent to landlords who are in your top 6%

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  • the number cruncher says:

    general congreve @ 6

    Its that attitude that got us in this mess in the first place

    No man should be allowed to live of wealth acquired through speculation on asset/commodity prices – that’s what the bankers and super rich do.

    Come the revolution comrade number cruncher will order FIRE! and charge a bullet value tax to the family.

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  • I think we have moved too far towards the American model, where the goal is to get rich, then spend and pollute your way through life. We are such a narrow society that we have political parties that attack the EU, when they are streets ahead of us in social and cultural attitudes. At the same time the rich, who are often members of these parties, will do just about anything in their power to cling on to their wealth, which in general they have acquired through occupying powerful and privileged positions. I find it quite sickening actually.

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  • cat and canary says:

    number cruncher: “Its that attitude that got us in this mess in the first place” … couldn’t agree more.

    In fact substitute the words “investment profits” for “bonus” and hey presto, you have a senior banker…

    “I plan to be in that top 6% by the time this mess is over and the govt. can go jump if they think they’re taxing my BONUS to give to the feckless chavs.”

    LTF, as always I agree with your insights, as much as it sickens me also.

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  • 16. letthemfall

    You have no idea what the EU is, or was, which seems to be the general theme that runs through your posts.

    15. the number cruncher said…’No man should be allowed to live off wealth acquired through speculation on asset/commodity prices.’

    Welcome to the club of the derivative carbon trading floor. You thought this wasn’t about money. lol

    How far behind are you guys? It’s painful to see.

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  • This is the kind of extreme inequality and concetration of wealth that Marx railled against, assuming that a largely urban, increasingly educated society would come to awarness and overthrow such a manifestly unfair system as rampant capitalism.

    However, he wasn’t quite specific about what system was supposed to take its place. And as a result, when the only big countries that embraced his manifesto were actually full of ill-educated peasants, easily manipulated by power-hungry iconoclastis spouting Marxist jargon, it all went a bit pear-shaped.

    Inequality is a bloody hard thing to fix – but one thing you can be sure of, a wealth tax is NOT on the cards when the Tories take power.

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  • the number cruncher says:

    Crunchy

    I have always been opposed to carbon trading and agree it is a complete con by those that own mineral wealth to increase the value of their assets.

    The strength of the conviction held is often inversely proportional to its verifiability, I am therefore touched by your great acts of faith in your own beliefs, as opaque as you try to make them… And you have my most sincere sympathy that other people’s opinions pain you…

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  • Rather meaningless. After all, the refugee family living in two £1600 a week London houses are no doubt asset poor but have a better standard of housing than most of us on this site. Can someone post the full article?

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  • ontheotherhand says:

    In tax year 08-09: 3.56m higher rate tax payers paid £83.9bn income tax (£23,567 per head) and 25.8m lower income tax payers paid £64.9bn (£2,515 per head). It’s difficult to see how much more redistribution can be achieved. I export UK accounting services and bring in dollar revenues. I am paid commission to incentivise me to work hard. I don’t think I’ll bother when the government is going to take more than half of my commission to bribe a bunch of voters with benefits. I studied hard to get an MA and an MBA and I work hard. The result is I can’t afford a house in this country and the government stirs up envy against people earning higher salaries.

    If somebody wins the lottery are they taxed 51.5% of it because the government argues they have ‘broad shoulders’. Why not? Because everyone playing the lottery aspires to win it and would hate the idea. But as more people give up on aspiring to work hard and earn a bigger salary themselves they vote for governments who penalise those who do.

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  • 22. ontheotherhand said…

    “In tax year 08-09: 3.56m higher rate tax payers paid £83.9bn income tax (£23,567 per head) and 25.8m lower income tax payers paid £64.9bn (£2,515 per head). It’s difficult to see how much more redistribution can be achieved. I export UK accounting services and bring in dollar revenues. I am paid commission to incentivise me to work hard. I don’t think I’ll bother when the government is going to take more than half of my commission to bribe a bunch of voters with benefits. I studied hard to get an MA and an MBA and I work hard. The result is I can’t afford a house in this country and the government stirs up envy against people earning higher salaries.

    If somebody wins the lottery are they taxed 51.5% of it because the government argues they have ‘broad shoulders’. Why not? Because everyone playing the lottery aspires to win it and would hate the idea. But as more people give up on aspiring to work hard and earn a bigger salary themselves they vote for governments who penalise those who do.”

    Hence TMC’s point about taxing wealth instead of work.

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  • The comments on here about ‘chavs’ are laughable. All the self-declared educated, middle class and economically aware on here yet I see as much ignorance, shallowness, bigotry, greed and utter narrow-minded grey lifelessness as anywhere else in society. Sad.

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  • ontheotherhand says:

    So taxed as you earn it, taxed as you spend it, taxed if you hold it (your wealth tax idea), and taxed if you pass it on to your children. Surely if they taxed wealth, the wealthiest would leave? Taxing income works because there are no jobs for me in Monaco, only in the UK, but if you tax wealth the wealthy go? And if they started considering my pension savings as wealth, as they do in this FT article, and then they start taxing it more (they already take £10bn out by taxing dividends each year), I’m going to start to feel pretty picked on.

    A mother at the same nursery as my child went shopping with my wife for little stocking fillers the other day. She and her partner live in a very nice council property and neither work. She bought her 2 year old and her 4 year old £120 Nintendo DS each and yet she is in this mass of poor people statistic that is deserving of more of my earnings.

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  • the number cruncher says:

    ontheotherhand

    Dont get hung up on qualifications, I have 5 higher degrees, including an MBA, and I do not place too much value on them, there where plenty of dolts on the courses that passed. I put much greater store on the fact I have raised over 50 of million pounds for charitable causes and have ran a number of multi million pound charitable enterprises and I am very happy with my modest stipend, which nudges me into the higher income tax bracket, and i did that starting from humble origins without any financial help from family.

    1. You only include income data and not other taxes
    2. the real rich do not pay income tax
    3. the real inequality is getting the wealthy to let the middle income earners shoulder the burden of taxation.
    4. we have a progessive taxation system up to people like ourselves and then the tax system is regressive with big tax breaks for the well off.

    The data you need to compare is the net worth of an individual against their overall tax burden. Those figures will tell you who are the real scroungers in our society. If you only can see your own tax burden in relation to the poorest in society those with wealth have done a great job in keeping you blind and working hard for their luxury.

    You would do well to to heed Mr Marley:
    `Business!’ cried the Ghost, `Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business;
    charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!

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  • ontheotherhand – why complain about the government taxing your income when you agree with it? Taxing wealth i.e. assets, would replace income tax, so the harder you work, the more you earn, what I thought you wanted according to your post. The assets taxed would be those held in this country i.e. land and natural resources, that rightfully belong to all the people of Britain, and unavoidable. Also, the tax would effectively come from the ‘speculation’, or unearned value increase of the assets.

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  • the number cruncher says:

    shipbuilder @ 24

    Great little post – You have my respect

    I see the spirit of Xmas is still a little distant this early in the season.

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  • ontheotherhand says:

    shipbuilder – it would be in my interest if it worked. I’m just unsure if it would. Do the wealthiest leave messing up the sums for hoped for revenues? What would happen to someone who has just retired with a £200,000 paid for house and a state pension? Forced to sell? If we had such a wealth tax now and the same person had saved £15,000, would they effectively ‘earn’ a negative interest rate after this asset tax?

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  • 24. shipbuilder.. Try living around chavs or with them. I get a sense from you much like the people that promote immigration and multiculturalism, but rarely step out of their exclusive rose lined villages to see beyond the idealism. There is a downside to all aspects of our society and to point these out sometimes is unavoidable. I hope you have lived a life that is colourful enough as to banish any possibilities of the gray lifelessness that you talk of. Please tell me I’m right and educate me on the finer points of chavism.

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  • the number cruncher says:

    ontheotherhand @ 29

    You are being really obtuse about asset taxes based on the idea of Land Value Tax replacing income and purchase taxation system.

    You are also using a straw man argument to counter it by picking an extreme example. In 95% of cases Land Value Tax would be beneficial to lower and middle income earners. sure their will be loosers but they will be a small % of the population.

    If someone cannot afford to pay the tax for occupying an expensive house then they can move to one where they can afford to, big deal

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  • ontheotherhand –

    “Do the wealthiest leave messing up the sums for hoped for revenues”.

    What makes the wealthiest the wealthiest are the assets they hold in this country, so they can leave if they want, but they will still pay the tax, or the person they sell it to will.
    But one should ask – why would they leave? Well, if someone wants to earn money from speculation and effort-free investment, rather than creative innovation and work, how much are they contributing to society? Perhaps it is better if they do leave.
    As for the rest of your concerns, Mark Wadsworth has answered them many times on here, maybe he will again.

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  • the number cruncher says:

    crunchy @ 30

    The gray lifelessness that shipbuilder speaks of is that which resides in your soul… and you cannot see it…

    It held up its chain at arm’s length, as if that were the
    cause of all its unavailing grief, and flung it heavily upon
    the ground again.

    `At this time of the rolling year,’ the spectre said `I
    suffer most. Why did I walk through crowds of fellow-beings
    with my eyes turned down, and never raise them to that blessed
    Star which led the Wise Men to a poor abode! Were there no
    poor homes to which its light would have conducted me!’

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  • 30. crunchy said…

    “24. shipbuilder.. Try living around chavs or with them. I get a sense from you much like the people that promote immigration and multiculturalism, but rarely step out of their exclusive rose lined villages to see beyond the idealism. There is a downside to all aspects of our society and to point these out sometimes is unavoidable. I hope you have lived a life that is colourful enough as to banish any possibilities of the gray lifelessness that you talk of. Please tell me I’m right and educate me on the finer points of chavism.”

    “Exclusive rose-lined villages”. LOL, I grew up and live in Belfast.
    Perhaps you missed my point. One can point out the downsides to our society, but to associate such downsides with a single income bracket or ‘class’ is rather naive and narrow-minded.
    Don’t you post regularly about seeking to see beyond received views? If you know as much as you claim, then you know that the real criminal underclasses worthy of debate in our society are not to be found in council estates.

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  • ontheotherhand says:

    Also, they put the assets in trust, the benefits of which are paid to the nominee as income and Voila, you have less tax coming in from the wealthy…

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  • Crunchy, everyone lives a colourful life, every day, if they choose to see through their bitterness and preconceptions. Go for a walk and see some nature, maybe?

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  • cat and canary says:

    Crunchy, “Try living around chavs or with them.”

    …i did, for years. I have been mugged several times, had my car broken into several times, house broken into.

    …but i’d rather have chav who steals my car radio, than a senior banker who steals my future

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  • ontheotherhand says:

    Land Value Tax is one thing but a wealth tax is different. 32 Shipbuilder ‘why would they leave’ For the same reason Lewis Hamilton left the UK for Lake Geneva. And whilst you’re correct that the wealthy can’t take their house with them, they can take their share certificates, pensions, cash etc.

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  • 36. shipbuilder, I was expecting a short answer. Very wise of you. : )

    37. cat and canary, May I refer you to post 9 “Give me a useless eating chav any day, as they at least have an excuse.”

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  • ontheotherhand – presumably Lewis Hamilton left the UK to avoid paying income tax, which is exactly my point. Lewis, however, is a minnow in comparison to the real rich in the UK, the receivers of the UK’s economic rents.

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  • general congreve says:

    @ Everyone I upset with my comments.

    Apologies for my slightly bigoted attitude regarding the underclass, but it is built on my own personal experience.

    Firstly I’m no lord of the manor, far from it, coming from a family who made the transition from working to middle class in my parents generation. And I doubt I’m going to end up minted like a banker from the small allocation of my savings I have transferred to gold, but hopefully I’ll end up quite a bit better off for it. If I’m wrong, I lose and end up out of pocket, my fault, if not I intend to keep the rewards for myself, after all it is me taking the risk with my savings, not the government.

    My attitude might be a little different if government spending was efficient, properly allocated and not controlled by imbeciles paying legions to be in non-jobs (I have worked in the public sector and seen it with my own eyes). That is not the world we live in though, so I am loathe to contribute my resources to this stupid and senseless waste.

    As for Chavs, I have had the misfortune to live next door, right next door to people that fit the description on two occasions. The first time, in my last property resulted in the 18 year old lodger over the road using my front window as wall off which to kick his football (reported to me by a neighbour – he was lucky I wasn’t in), local kids destroying my gas meter box outside my property and turning the gas off, being woken up in the middle of the night by a man shouting ‘Your a [email protected]@king slag’ at the house of the lovely woman who lived in the very nice and newly built Local authority house across the road, to which she screamed out of her bedroom window ‘Just [email protected]@k off!’. She had three young kids and two cars, a people carrier and a peugout 206, both pretty new and she didn’t work. I eventually rented my property out while I worked abroad, only to have my tenants move out a few months later after a gang of 20 youths smashed up their car which was right outside their front door to the tune of £2000. Luckily I sold said property for a song in July 2007, I pity the poor woman who bought it off me.

    I thought that was the last of that, but no. In my new property in a respectable little town, the BTL’ers who own next door decided to rent to the local authority. In moved a 19 year old single mum, rough as they come but seemingly polite, so no worries… Until her boyfriend moved in who wasn’t supposed to be there (no doubt subletting out his own council place courtesy of the tax payer). I know he wasn’t supposed to be there because the first thing he said to me after having been there for 5 weeks when I said ‘hi’ was, ‘I don’t live here, I’m just a friend’. Guilty of something? If it had just been that I wouldn’t have cared. But they also moved in a constantly yapping pit bull that they weren’t legally allowed to keep, were dealing drugs and would go on Thurdsay through Sunday drug benders without sleep every week. Now, let’s say I’ve most definitely lived, but doing that stuff with a 2 year old kid in the house is plain wrong. Also screaming at your 2 year old child to ‘Just shut up!’ when he’s crying is also wrong in my book. Luckily I got them moved out after difficult negotiations with their ignorant and selfish landlady.

    Now, tell me would my potential wealth be best allocated to the two-car sweary single mum in lovely free house that on the free market would be worth 300k plus (if she bothered to clean the piles of litter out of her front garden that is) or to the druggy single mum and her waster boyfriend in a nice free house worth 200k on the free market, while also letting them afford to keep a dog illegally and a bothersome unloved child, consume expensive drugs for half the week and behave like complete scum (did I mention they just dumped the rubbish in the rear garden and never put it out for 3 months until the neighbours complained?)?

    Perhaps you can see where I’ve got my attitude from? These people already have plenty of money, while my middle-class twenty and thirty something cousins all still live at home with their mum and dad because they are skint and loaded up on student debt. Fair?

    The issue isn’t about money, it’s about not behaving like gutter scum, if you’ve experienced it you’ll know.

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  • So apparently to know chavs is to hate them. I wonder do the hundreds of low paid and voluntary community workers up and down the country feel the same, or maybe they decided to stay in their community and help solve the problems?

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  • 36. shipbuilder I was expecting a short generic answer. Very wise of you. : ) I have an intimate relationship with nature btw, through plein

    air painting, but unfortunately not enough of late. Too busy trying to brush off the onslaught of poverty I guess.

    37. cat and canary, Sorry to hear that. May I repeat my earlier comment, “Give me a useless eating chav any day, as they at least have an excuse.”

    The days of living in Whitechapel and Bethnal Green. Colourful? Yes. I’m affraid not all life’s are colourful shippy, or valued.

    Sometimes greyness in life, with the odd accent of light is to be embrassed or even promoted, not just banished and forgotten about in a

    quest for a moral righteousness that still remains as ugly as sin.

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  • Crunchy – short generic answers? I guess I’ve learnt from the master ;). Perhaps I misinterpret, but the odd time I get a flash of deep conservatism in your posts, which you then seem to scramble to cover up. Indeed not all lives are valued, even less so in this thread where insults are so easily thrown at the less fortunate.

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  • 41. shipbuilder I personally never said anything about hate. There is a time for help, a time for judgement and a time for justice. This

    applies to all, apart from the very weakest in society that have no hope of self help. Socialism at it’s best.

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  • 43. shipbuilder said… ‘conservatism in your posts’

    Now this should be interesting, please elaborate.

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  • general congreve says:

    @41 – I admire those that voluntarily try to help their communities. I voluntarily undertook my own local litter pick of the area at the last place I lived, including the sweary mum’s front garden over the road under cover of darkness (couldn’t really knock on her door and tell her I thought she was a f4cking mess). I filled up 3 bin bags of rubbish from a 300m stretch of road. Worth the effort though, I got the offer which led to the sale of my property the next day.

    Volunteers is not what’s really required though. I would suggest cattle prods as being the most effective prescription for the problem, to be used as training aids in the manner of Pavlov’s Dog experiment.

    In all serious though, what the children of the underclass need is opportunities, a reason to feel proud of themselves, something that will encourage them to rise above the station they’ve been handed by their parents. Plus a bit more discipline. A form of National Service for youth offenders wouldn’t be a bad thing, better for them than prison, give them some discipline, self respect and direction in life.

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  • 46. general congreve.. Watch out, you might get a grey bigot calling you a ‘conservative.’

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  • Can one be a renegade conservative? I hope so!

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  • Crunchy, just pointing out the irony of someone who posts so frequently about the ‘elite’ oppressing us defending sweeping attacks on ‘chavs’.
    “Chavs and immigrants to the left of me, New World Order to the right…..”. What a miserable life you must lead.
    I take people as I meet them. Generally those who I meet from all walks of life are fine, with all the faults and blessings that most people have. Make assumptions if you want about my experiences or background.

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  • Who knows, maybe Northern Ireland turned out to be a better place to live that England! Now that would be ironic.

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  • Whilst I am waiting shippy, lets do some research on the NWO NEOCON scum. Oh, perplexing!

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  • We’ve somehow spent too much time
    Staying in line
    With screw ball attitudes on our minds
    We’ve run off the track
    The gang’s all back
    We’re not just doughnut kids
    It’s too late for someone like me.

    Punching the clock, we somehow forgot
    We’re not just doughnut kids
    With screw ball attitudes all the time.
    It’s too late for someone like me.
    Too late for someone like me.

    Just get on up like I know you can
    ‘Cuz currency can only do so much
    And it certainly can’t dance,/b>
    Can’t dance
    Can’t dance
    Can’t dance

    Sure I need you just like anyone else
    And you’re no fun if you can’t help yourself.

    There are many ways to treat a patient,
    But dancing is best at beating inflation.

    Ain’t got no arms,
    ain’t got no legs,
    Ain’t got no eyes,
    ain’t got no head.

    Don’t wanna be cruel.
    Ain’t got no arms,
    ain’t got no legs,
    Ain’t got no eyes,
    ain’t got no head.
    There’s some things I can do and some I can’t!

    Just get on up like I know you can
    ‘Cuz currency can only do so much
    And it certainly can’t dance
    Can’t dance
    Can’t dance
    Can’t dance
    Can’t dance
    Can’t dance
    Can’t dance
    It’s too late for someone like me.

    We’re not just doughnut kids.
    We’re not just doughnut kids.

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  • weee oops. I’m so bad at closing them there html tags. 🙁

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  • Anyway…

    Money can’t dance!

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  • shippy, I have made no assumptions, it was a question. The day you stop outsmarting yourself will be a day when you will carry an

    opinion. Untill then you will be pi88ing in the wind like so many that don’t know the difference between choice and prejudice, but hey, if

    you don’t come to a conclusion on anything you can’t be wrong and thus always hold the seemingly higher ground.

    lifes about choices and those are made through experiences. That’s why people are different. Nothing to be afraid of shippy.

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  • It could be said that generalisations kept my country divided for decades. I guess my experience tells me not to make generalisations.

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  • 55. 51ck-6-51x said…Money can’t dance! but it will pay the bills in retirement and allow a rare humane walk down the final pathway

    to death. It’s that or euthanasia for me.

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  • 57. shipbuilder.

    Ok ship, have a good night! I’m off to the Consevative Club, blue blazer in hand, LOL. (That’s bloody scary)

    I would rather drink with a chav if I had no other choice.

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  • @LTF
    “To call someone a “chav” is to adopt an arrogant superiority.”

    It’s actually adopting a Geordie dialect word, charva, that I remember becoming very popular in Newcastle in the late ’90s (I think it originated from one of the Northumberland pit-villages). Charvas aren’t really defined by their socio-economic class (although they are all from the same class), but by their taste, dress-sense, attitude – although the word is pejorative, it was essentially one section of the working classes having a bit of a dig at another (it is a Geordie dialect word after all – it didn’t originate from the middle classes). Once Southerners got hold of it a few years ago in it’s new form (and especially the London media), it became the much more socially-demeaning chav – an acceptable means by which the middle-classes could snear at the underclass and blame them for their misfortune by dehumanising them; the subtlety of the original meaning was lost.

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  • SIT DOWN & SHUT UP, Let us socially engineer you. Do whatever we want with the population dynamics of your country.

    Do whatever we want with education. Do whatever we want with the justice system even though we don’t solve anything.

    BUT DON’T YOU EVER, EVER, CRITICISE THE OUTCOME OF OUR DECISIONS OR WE MIGHT HAVE TO LISTEN TO AN INTEREST OTHER THAN OUR OWN.

    We have ways of shutting you up too. We have words like Bigot, Racist, Snob, Nazi, and we have an army to enforce this not up for

    debate agenda. Political Correctness and it’s role in society.

    Show me a chav and I will show you social breakdown.
    Show me a fierce dog and I will show you a bad owner. (Don’t expect me to stroke and embrace it.)

    It is in the ’cause’ that things are improved not in the servicing of the aftermath. If I call someone a chav and a useless eater it is because someone is.

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  • “Honesty is the first chapter of the book of wisdom.”

    Thomas Jefferson.

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  • @crunchy 58…

    Maybe that’s the idea. Make old age unbearable, so opt for the early shower. Might even get the sheeple to buy into a general cull at the age of 75! I guess they would save a fortune on NHS costs and pension costs. Just a thought.

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  • general congreve says:

    Well been away playing Call of Duty during most of this, as advised by HPCers in response to my recent poll (HPC or CoD), but looks like I got a good old debate going with my Anti-Chavism remarks earlier – 63 posts! Most I’ve ever seen on a news article posting. Well done me 🙂

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  • 63. markj69 str05 Did you know that we can now (god willing????) te technology to live up to 150-200years of age, but it’s not for us.

    64. general congreve Correction-65, at least. Well done!

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  • the number cruncher says:

    Crunchy on this matter we have full agreeement

    “Show me a fierce dog and I will show you a bad owner. (Don’t expect me to stroke and embrace it.”

    I study dogs and wolves to a greater depth than probably anyone else in the UK and on this matter we have full agreement

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  • the number cruncher says:

    general congreve

    in my time I have had my next door neighbour murdered, prostitutes on the street outside my house, hell I have even had a neighbour offer a 13 year old girl for marriage(or stranger), but that does not mean I hate all my unfortunate past neighbours, only some of them.

    I now live in a rural village, far from the maddening crowd, but I still think that I am not above the common man, only more fortunate. Charity is a most wonderful of gifts and to understand the pain of the upbringing of those unfortunate souls that were neieghbours of yours is to understand how your own parenting made you the man you are today>.

    Thanks Mum and Dad for making me a hard working chap who still has the ability to hold charity in my heart for may fellow man…

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  • general congreve says:

    @67 – snap! I had a next door neighbour murdered too. Next door-but-one actually, I was out of the country at the time, it was an estarnged husband who came back to talk things over with his wife via a handy bread knife in the kitchen.

    To complete the story, the flat I owned was part of a pub that was converted to flats because the landlord was gunned down on the premises in 1992. And the other house next door saw an old lady beaten to death when she disturbed burglars in 1989. So, what with the murder I first mentioned that happened in 2005, they’d been 3 murders in the space of 4 houses in 16 years on my old street. A peace time record in the UK I reckon!

    @67 – agreed, upbringing is very important. But the buck has to stop somewhere. If they aren’t capable of brining up decent offspring don’t give them money and property to breed!

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  • general congreve says:

    @68 – drunk. Typos – 1. bringing. 2. give them money and property to help them breed.

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  • 66. the number cruncher.

    I have a Cavalier King Charles, she’s 7 months old and loves a scrap to burn off energy. She has never bitten me in an agressive way whilst playing, but I have heard that one shouldn’t encourage a dog to bite in any way. Should I refocus her attention on a toy when she needs to play? Your advise would be appreciated.

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  • the number cruncher says:

    I have two wolf packs,I kid you not, and a love of their descendants in all their form’s. I do hope some day we can discuss these matters.I Manage a number of research projects that will hope to re-introduce the wolf back to the UK.

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  • the number cruncher says:

    Crunchy – the bond between a dog and its master must be between that of a farther and child. You must stop a dog hurting another human or dog but allow it enough self expression as possibles to become your lifelong freind.

    I love my son far more than the wolves but both must respect authority and that is only achieved by being someone to look up to, not just feared.

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  • 72. the number cruncher

    Thanks for that, all is ok then, as I picked a Cavalier for their fearlessness. lol

    Seriously, she is a fast learner as well as runner, coupled with the King Charles law of access rights into Parliment, who knows. ; )

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  • @ 71, number cruncher:

    Have you met Shaun Ellis then? What are your remarks. For me it’s a shame that a guy like him has had to sacrifice so much regarding the invaluable knowledge to humanity he’s given (or at least to the fear-monger, tick-box, health-and-safety-first society we have here Britain). Hope you are doing well with the wolves. Hopefully they may come back sooner rather than later!

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  • Shipbuilder, wonderfully reasoned arguments as ever. You are a patient man. The “chav” thing is out of hand on this post. However, the production of a disfunctional section of the poor is the direct result of the free for all British society has become. The promotion of materialism as the only meaningful persuit, of money as a measure of a persons worth, the acceptance of greed in the face of obvious need, the duplicity of the political class and the glamourising and extremity of violence in mainstream entertainment all corrode each of us as human beings and as members of this socity. Those left to rot, educationally, cuturally and emotionally as well as financially, are most likely to most crudely mirror the most base and obvious values around them.The UK prodces a particular brand of this because of the unique combination of family breakdown and social history but the wealth and income disparity allowing it to flourish are the result of the wholesale adoption of an “anglo-saxon” transatlantic economic model.

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  • 61. crunchy said…SIT DOWN & SHUT UP, Let us socially engineer you. Do whatever we want with the population dynamics of your country.

    Do whatever we want with education. Do whatever we want with the justice system even though we don’t solve anything.

    BUT DON’T YOU EVER, EVER, CRITICISE THE OUTCOME OF OUR DECISIONS OR WE MIGHT HAVE TO LISTEN TO AN INTEREST OTHER THAN OUR OWN.

    We have ways of shutting you up too. We have words like Bigot, Racist, Snob, Nazi, and we have an army to enforce this not up for

    debate agenda. Political Correctness and it’s role in society.

    Show me a chav and I will show you social breakdown.
    Show me a fierce dog and I will show you a bad owner. (Don’t expect me to stroke and embrace it.)

    It is in the ’cause’ that things are improved not in the servicing of the aftermath. If I call someone a chav and a useless eater it is because someone is.

    74. clockslinger : )

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  • krustyatemyhamster says:

    crunchy
    “Honesty is the first chapter of the book of wisdom.”

    I can’t see what’s honest about writing that all men are born equal whilst keeping slaves.

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  • 76. krustyatemyhamster said.. “I can’t see what’s honest about writing that all men are born equal whilst keeping slaves”

    I didn’t write that…. have another try.

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  • krustyatemyhamster says:

    You quoted it crunchy, from the world’s biggest hypocrite.

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  • 78. krustyatemyhamster You really are getting desperate now, please show me where. Such resistance! : )

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  • Please take your time krusty as I have an ‘Indian’ client and a long standing friend to see. Bye for now.

    btw, If you do happen to find it, could you post it in it’s fullest of context please. I dont remember writing that.

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  • general congreve says:

    80th comment – WOOHOO!!!!!

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  • general congreve says:

    Damn it crunchy – 82nd comment – WOOHOO!!!!!

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  • Crunchy @75, yes there is something to the view that opportunistic social control is founded on the back of some stage managed social panic! Look at S44 Terrorism Act! Or anything to do with kids and adults working near them.

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  • krustyatemyhamster says:

    “62. crunchy said…”Honesty is the first chapter of the book of wisdom.”

    Thomas Jefferson.

    Friday, December 11, 2009 11:54PM ”

    Evidence isn’t your strong point though is it, so no doubt you’ll continue denying it.

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