Sunday, Sep 27, 2009

Brown On The Anrew Marr show

BBC News: Gordon Brown on UK debt levels

I have never seen such a blatant display of lying before.
Just warming up for the annual conference.

Posted by wdbeast @ 01:22 PM (2526 views)
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1. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

 

2. britishblue said...

According to the Economist the debt level of countries mentioned for 2009 are:

UK 79.6 percent of GDP.
France 83.7 percent of GDP
Germany 87.9 percent

I dont know why some of you dont set up a blog called, 'We hate Gordon.' as no relevance to HPC has been derived from this article

alan_540, please give you source which shows this is a blatent source of lying

Sunday, September 27, 2009 01:42PM
 

3. alan said...

"Total government debt will double to 79% of GDP by 2013 - the highest level since the Second World War. The annual budget deficit will rise sharply to £175bn for the next two years".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8011321.stm

These debt levels (above) are looking pretty high to me.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 01:53PM Report Comment
 

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5. alan_540 said...

britishblue - regarding your "We Hate Gordon" blog - what a good idea!

Would you like to start one?

Sunday, September 27, 2009 02:02PM Report Comment
 

6. britishblue said...

Alan_540. not particularly. i'd like to read about house prices at a house price crash rather than peoples political views

Sunday, September 27, 2009 02:14PM Report Comment
 

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8. bellwether said...

BB, the debt level calculation you cite discount personal debt (which is 180% of GDP in the UK, far far higher than any of the european countries mentioned and some 50% higher than even the US) which in a consumer driven economy is horredous. It is this debt that terrifies the currency markets. The figure also ignores the QE needed to fiance our debt and the huge guarantees given to our banks with balance sheets 4 times GDP. I think there are some other omissions also eg pension liabilties. I'm afraid on a relative basis we are fcked.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 02:31PM Report Comment
 

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10. braindeed said...

9. alan_540 said...

Sunday, September 27, 2009 02:40PM Report Comment
 

11. alan_540 said...

british blue - bellwether's post, which I have no reason to doubt is correct, would indicate that I was correct in assuming that he was lying (albeit by omission) when he stated in the interview with Andrew Marr that our debt levels were similar to other comparable economies.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 02:40PM Report Comment
 

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13. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

 

14. britishblue said...

alan_540

I personally don't like Gordon Brown, never have done! I have always thought he has been smug and arrogant and waiting to knife Blair. He's not the sort of bloke I would ever like to share a drink with. He took a lot of credit for the credit bubble when it was in full flow, which he regularly mentioned in his budgets (GDP growth, ect). Although he wasn't respnisble for the worldwide financial collapse, he was in high office and bought into the credit bubble all the way, and like all politicians hasn't admitted to his failing in this area. In that sense he could be termed as a 'prat.'

However, since September 2008, I believe he has shown leadership in coming up with routes out of this problem. Many countries have first sneered at him and then followed suit in bank bail outs fiscal stimulation, etc. His proposal for a Fiscal Responsibility Act is a worthy extension of this and is something that is needed in all debtor countries. In this sense, I wouldnt call him a 'prat'. I would see him as someone that is doing a very, very difficult job.

I hope that answers your question.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 02:45PM Report Comment
 

15. enuii said...

Spot on analysis Bellweather, looking at individual debt figures is in itself very misleading as the health of an economy cannot be determined by a single statistic.

As well as government debt both on and off the balance sheet as you say we need to consider private debt both personal and mortgage based housing costs, pension liabilities public, company pension scheme deficits, private pension scheme costs (and losses), GDP, Sterling, Inflation, Employment levels and Tax Receipts both personal and companies.

Whatever way you look at it one person and one person alone has been steering the good ship UK and that person alone is responsible for the course and direction she has took because he has had his hand on the financial tiller for the last 12 years.

That person Britishblue is Gordon and it is he alone who I hold personally responsible rather than his party as a whole, the only thing they are culpable of as a collective group of MP's is of complacency of a comfortable ride while the going was easy.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 02:52PM Report Comment
 

16. alan_540 said...

british blue

He sold himself as being fiscally responsible (and still is selling himself and his party on this basis). He has not been responsible. The German chancellor does not think he is fiscally responsible - which was why she was more than a little put out that had a go at her for disagreeing with his stimulus measures. The jury is still out on whether his actions are going to be anything other than a delaying of the inevitable, and cynics would say that he did what he did to try and save his and his parties skin before the upcoming election.

As for a "Fiscal Responsibility Act" that probably has more to do with hobbling an incoming government than being a true vehicle to rebalance the books. It is just a smokescreen to put off till tomorrow what should be done today by those in "high office" who are paid to make those decisions NOW and not during the next parliament... in other words "vote for me and give me power for 5 more years and then and only then will I take responsibilty and sort out the mess that I have created".

Sunday, September 27, 2009 02:59PM Report Comment
 

17. britishblue said...

alan_540.

That was part of the point I was trying to make. Merkel sneered at bank bailouts and fiscal stimulus. Then followed suit with both of these along with bailing out the German car industry.

The Fiscal Responsibility Act won't hobble an incoming government. They can always pass another Act to reverse it, if they wish. If anything it plays into their hands. The masses often vote on 'Jam today.' More than anything I would like to see all the major parties in agreement that this debt has to come down and that votes are not gained through tax cut proposals, etc.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 03:14PM Report Comment
 

18. alan_540 said...

british blue

It would take an act of God not just an act of Parliament to make Gordon financially responsible.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 03:37PM Report Comment
 

19. braindeed said...

8. alan_540 said...
It would take an act of God not just an act of Parliament to make Gordon financially responsible.

You don’t ‘do’ subtlety, do you? In a similar vein - Jeez, what a boor.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:11PM Report Comment
 

20. alan_540 said...

Each to their own braindead.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:12PM Report Comment
 

21. braindeed said...

I refer the Honourable Gentleman (titter) to my previous comment.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:15PM Report Comment
 

22. alan_540 said...

Indeed braindead, indeed.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:16PM Report Comment
 

23. braindeed said...

Better read that last one again, dear.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:18PM Report Comment
 

24. alan_540 said...

How booring braindead.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:20PM Report Comment
 

25. braindeed said...

yes - you win, yahoo.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:21PM Report Comment
 

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27. braindeed said...

It's the manner in which you express said opinion, that makes you boorish.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:27PM Report Comment
 

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29. braindeed said...

Context is everything

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:36PM Report Comment
 

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31. braindeed said...

By jove, I think he's got it.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:41PM Report Comment
 

32. alan_540 said...

This has gone a bit off topic. All a bit Pete Tong really. Over to you braindeed.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 04:46PM Report Comment
 

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36. bystander said...

Absolutely hpwatcher, wheres Paxman when you need him? Brown wouldn't let himself be interviewed by someone who has their own opinion, and is willing to ask and pursue dificult topics. Brown Broadcasting Corporation do it, or rather don't do it, again.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 06:16PM Report Comment
 

37. mdmick said...

There was a documentary on telly this week about the financial crisis and Brown was presented as someone who came forward with a plan that America later on thought, "What a good plan!" about.

The documentary refers to Ireland before the UK as a country which said, "Let's bail out the banks!"
and I was puzzled thereafter because the documentary emphasised that Brown had started the bail out ball rolling.

I read on HPC today or yesterday about how maybe the UK should have let its weaker banks go to the wall.
And that puzzles me too. This is because the banks all do deals with each other and the fall of a bank affects the worth of the assets of the banks still standing. And I think that the people who said, "Let them fall" understand that fully and yet still would have preferred that systemic risk increase rather than the bail out. From reading this site a lot, I imagine that part of their thinking is that these bail outs are, in themselves, a displacement of the crisis into a long drawn out crisis rather than inviting a short sharp shock intense crisis.. with the risk of also being a long drawn out crisis.

I think that the bail out, if not the only option, was a safe bet - especially when you consider that politicians build their careers on 'a favour for a favour' - that is not in keeping with a 'let them fall' psychology. A Private Eye reader cynic might say that, when Brown leaves his PM job, he might be able to get a nice job in the banking world because of the decision to try to save banks. It's intrinsic.

I feel strongly that almost any PM would have adopted a bail out. And I feel uncomfortable with this idea that Brown instigated global bail outs or that he showed any great thought process in reaching the decision to do bail outs.

I have no personal feelings towards him really on this - it's just how I see things.
My only issue with Brown is how he allowed house prices to get as big as they did by allowing the Bank of England control of interest rates [/allowing the long term lowering of interst rates] but that's a topic for another day, perhaps.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 06:33PM Report Comment
 

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39. mken said...

Gordon Brown claims leadership in "coming up with routes out of this problem" (otherwise known as postponement by any means) but doesn't claim leadership into the crisis which is rightfully his. When the game of pass the "postponed crisis" parcel ends he will be nursing his pension on the Isle of Man.

Sunday, September 27, 2009 07:45PM Report Comment
 

40. Macca said...

Even if he didn't see the bank crisis looming he should have realised that property prices couldn't and shouldn't have continued rising at that pace and that there was going to be a limit to the amount of borrowing by individuals given the average wage in this country. The social impact was obvious and he did nothing. Prevention is always the best cure.

Monday, September 28, 2009 08:25AM Report Comment
 

41. uncle tom said...

Has someone from the Labour party hacked the moderator's access codes?

Everything remotely critical of GB has been removed..

Monday, September 28, 2009 09:07AM
 

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