Thursday, March 19, 2009

I’m alright Jack! Gordon Brown’s army of voters.

Public sector shielded as unemployment hits 2 million

A growing divide between a burgeoning public sector and struggling private sector emerged yesterday as figures showed that the number of people out of work rose above two millions in January – the highest level since Labour came to power in 1997. The number of people signing on for unemployment benefits rose by 138,000 last month – the fastest rate since 1971. Meanwhile, jobs and pay are still rising in the public sector. Official figures show that 30,000 jobs were created in the public sector last year, with 105,000 lost in the private sector.

Posted by flintster1994 @ 08:38 AM (1529 views)
Please complete the required fields.



29 thoughts on “I’m alright Jack! Gordon Brown’s army of voters.

  • THIS is what the ‘Summer of rage’ is all about.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • happy mondays says:

    Paul – summer of rage ? Do you think the peasants will be revolting?

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • …..and whom do we think will end up paying for their gold plated pensions and fat salaries. Rand was right, it is about time Atlas Shrugged.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • Gravy train. Don’t get me started on public sector fat cats!!!

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • “Average earnings fell in January for the first time since the Office for National Statistics started keeping records in 1991.” Deflation?

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • I don’t think the peasants are revolting, but I do think Gordon Brown is!

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • george monsoon says:

    Tell me about it..

    I know some of these people, and they do nothing but moan about their 2.5% pay rise, guaranteed each year, fat pensions, lavish payoffs for redundancy.. etc..

    I haven’t had a pay rise for nearly 4 years, of any kind

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • george monsoon
    I don’t know any part of the public sector that hands out lavish redundancy payouts, although I know some parts of the private sector that do. Those who get 2.5% pay rises have at best only kept up with inflation (cf private sector real wage increases). Some parts of the public sector have had real pay falls over the last 2 or 3 decades. And pensions are modest; they just happen to look pretty good compared to many bad ones in the private sector

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • letthemfall – i believe this indicates the realities of life in this day and age : “Public sector pay rose by 3.7 per cent in the year to January 2009. Private sector pay fell by 1.1 per cent in that period. Inflation is currently at 3 per cent.”

    We dont need to get political on this. The issue is simply a reflection of the truth which is. When there is an economic contraction of this kind then the private sector employers literally cannot afford to pay a salary increase. Employees put up with that because they cant get alternative employment.

    Re the Public sector is insulated from that. Now wether thats a good thing or bad thing and whether the private sector salaries are subject to boom and bust while the public sectors are insulated is an interesting debate. We discussed this before (but we didnt compare it with actual results – because they hadnt “come in” then).

    Without getting involved in a private sector v public sector spat (which is pointless) my opinion is that the public sector pay will edge down and if the unions try to strike or whatever they will be a fat ZERO public support for them. Now that may be unfair because they did or didnt get pulled up with the rest of the nation during the boom, however my point remains. What is your view?

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • shipbuilder says:

    The thread ‘Why rising unemployment is bad for all’ makes a good point – it’s better for the economy overall (in our current economic system) to keep people in employment and therefore spending. Unfortunately during the bust phase of an economic cycle, the free-market theory that when one company fails, another springs up, simply doesn’t happen – everyone panics and sheds jobs.
    it’s easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to this if you’re in the private sector, but could it actually be better for the economy? What does everyone think?
    Apart from that, i’ve never understood the logic of ignoring the person causing your problem (your employer) and blaming someone else who happens to be OK.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • Surely you can’t sustain the public sector as it is now without a profitable and thriving private sector effectively providing the funding via Taxation – or am I missing something here?

    In addition to the above public sector superannuation pension schemes (IMO) are akin to a Ponzi scheme

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • letthemfall says:

    techieman
    Just looked at the ONS figures (I don’t trust anything in the Times): For year to Jan “… growth in the private sector stood at 3.4 per cent compared with 3.9 per cent for the public sector.” (The figure excludes bonuses). So not such a disparity. I think you’re right that private sector pay is more up and down than public, whose pay tends to fall behind in the “good times”. And you’re probably right about public support for strikes, which in any case is usually lukewarm at best. And unions are no longer strong.

    The CBI doesn’t usually spout about gaps between public and private sector pay because public sector is normally behind. It’s an interesting point that the public sector incomes might actually do well out of a period of deflation, which would be a kind of compensation for decades of slow decline in some parts of it. But now QE is unleashed in the US, maybe that won’t happen.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • shipbuilder says:

    george monsoon – I’ve worked in the private sector all my life and have received an above-inflation rise every year except this one. Perhaps your employer is the problem?

    jack c – yes that is the logic that immediately springs to mind, however it is right – could it not be said that the relatively ‘safe’ public sector (whether it is bloated or not – a seperate argument) are actually saving the private sector to a degree by maintaining spending (not to forget that a huge amount of companies get a large proportion of their income from government contracts). I’m not saying this is true becuase I don’t know – just putting out another angle to look at things from.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • letthemfall – i take your point re the ONS figures, although the way things are going i think the disparity is NOW real and will get worse (or better depending on your point of view!).

    Re Pensions i think that at the top this makes no difference ass to where you are employed. I would be naive to think that councils dont enhance salaries for the last few years of a final salary scheme or maybe thats just me being cynical. By the same token we all know about Freds (a “private” sector) pension. As you have said before we should be striving for the best of both worlds not bitching about who gets what (divide and rule personified?). All i would say is that we have to be able to afford them as Jack says.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • BTW Letthemfall did you see my post about Norton Rose? – a major lawfirm and bastion of the private sector. Looks like the sharp end to me.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • @shipbuilder – thanks for the input and alternative angle – I’ll simplfy my view of things a little further (perhaps controversially) – If everyone who is a public sector worker became a private sector worker (self employed, entrepreneur, employee) then the country as a whole ie Great Britain Plc could (IMO) continue to function whereas if everyone who is a private sector worker elected to become a public sector worker (civil servant) the country would go bankrupt. The private sector must produce the goods and services that generate sufficient tax revenues to sustain a public sector work force – if you get an imbalance between the two with the weighting towards the public sector you are heading for economic disaster.

    Public sector pensions are unstatinable in their current form – you guy’s do realise that with a scheme such as the Civil Service pension there isnt an actual pension fund and that todays retirees are simply paid out by todays workers – it’s a Ponzi scheme in all but name !

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • Jack – correct me if i am wrong here but as a point of interest isnt the police different? I mean arent they supported by their own employees contributions? Thats what ive been told anyway. In general i agree with the fact that defined benefit schemes in the public sector arent funded per se, but obviously money purchase ones in the private sector are.

    Its interesting to note that hardly any of the private sector companies can afford final salary and yet these are persisted with (at great cost in effect) in the public sector. Perhaps money purchase for everyone is the way to go.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • letthemfall says:

    techieman
    No I didn’t see that post. Can you point me to it.

    jackc
    That can only be true if you are saying that a section of the workforce stops producing their stuff to produce instead something already being produced, which has nothing to do with public or private sector. The wealth of the nation is dependent on the work done by the populace, not whether they employed by private or state employers. We have a public sector to provide services for the benefit of all, which contribute to the general well-being of the nation. If you turned all these services private, I think that would be a disaster. Pre-War, health and education was only available to a minority. What would a return to that do for the wealth of the nation? For a more contemporary example, look to the US. If you’ve no money, you don’t get health care.

    Pensions funded through taxation are nothing like Ponzi schemes. The state pension is funded through taxation. For many pensioners it is their only income. Part of the civil service scheme is now funded, and retirement ages have been raised. Many schemes are unsustainable as they are, including many private ones.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • Jack C

    Spot on, we need a Public Sector obviously to maintain some degree of order and control, however, I, from a personal view point am very aware of people in the Public Sector who seem to turn up for work and get promoted through time served and yes enjoy what appears to me to be a pretty good salary combined with very good holiday and pension arrangements. More than I might suggest some of them would get in the Private Sector.

    My point, I think we’re already overweighted in the Public Sector by some margin. Agreeing with your point about Private supporting Public I think there needs to be some substantial trimming, or this will be another imbalance that will drag us down. However with regard to keeping people working, maybe nows not the best time.

    I think what I’d like to see is the Public Sector being more enterprising themselves. By that I don’t mean more parking wardens etc. I mean making the lives of the ‘wealth generators’ easier.
    One example would be that HMRC seem to have made everything so complicated they need an army to run it. Not a week seems to go buy without something else arriving from them that I have to read, file or deal with. Yet I just run a small business on my own. It almost puts me off employing people because of the paperwork that would follow.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • rocket robbie says:

    Techie

    I know that is the way it works in the Fire Brigade

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • letthemfall – its the last post of yesterday.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • letthemfall says:

    str 2007
    Sounds like a good job? Where can I apply?

    Don’t forget that everyone is a “wealth generator”. All the stuff you can buy is part of it, but so is access to a doctor when you’re ill, the education you received and your children will receive, law and order, bins emptied, and so on and so on.

    And to repeat once more, who has done the most to devastate the wealth of this country in recent years?

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • george monsoon says:

    Lethemfall…

    I get 1 weeks salary for every year I have worked at my company for redundancy pay… thats 5 weeks pay, or just over a months salary.

    The public sector workers that I know … One had been with their company for 10 years and took VR with a payout over 6 figures… a civil servant no less, and still gets their pension protected… These people moan about their pay and pensions all the time, most have never worked in the private sector, so have no real understanding of business economics.. and no, apparently I am not on my own with the pay increases.. I know other people who have not had pay rises for years, some have had pay cuts… this is deflation in action..!!

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • @techieman – Thursday, March 19, 2009 02:05PM – Police and fire brigade members currently pay 11.5% of salary but their contributions are paying towards those officers who are retirees they are not building up their own “pension pot” hence my belief that the current sytem due to demographics etc is completely unstsainable.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • letthemfall says:

    george m

    I agree your deal doesn’t sound good, and the civil servant you cite has done pretty damn well, possibly more than deserved – I don’t know. But this is not a general rule, and the early retirement payouts finished some time ago afaiaw. Mind you, I could offer as an example a couple of retired airline pilots on 6-figure pensions, one of whom complains about inheritance tax. Sitting pretty, if no longer flying.

    It’s a grossly unfair society we live in, and I’m sure both of us would like to see it made fairer.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • letthemfall

    I wasn’t knocking the doctor/teacher etc. it’s obvious to me this is all needed and in an indirect way does generate wealth.

    It seems to me everytime a local authority gets ‘enterprising’ it involves raping it’s people not helping them. Parking Wardens, Speed Cameras etc.
    My HMRC example was another of an overly bueracratic system that seems to hold back rather than push forward others.

    Another impression I’ve got from those Public Sector workers I know is that they think they run some sort of business when in actual fact all they do is send out bills to everyone to a level that covers their costs (Council Tax).

    I assume you’re talking about bankers bringing about the wealth destruction – yes agree to a point – but operating in a system designed/adjusted/monitored by the Public Sector.

    I guess the nearest analogy I can come up with quickly is the Entrepreneurs are the equivalent of the WW2 Fighter Pilots and Public Sector the ‘factory workers keeping them going with planes and ammo etc.

    Both were needed as much as the other, but then the factory workers were proud to be helping where as now I get the impression they can more more of a hinderance in parts.

    I just wish there was a little bit more of the ‘team spirit’ so to speak.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • @letthemfall – thanks for your feedback – techies post you are looking for was the last one from yesterday.

    Just to pick up on 1 of your points “The state pension is funded through taxation” correct but the taxes/NI collected today are paying todays pensioners (not tommorows pensioners ie you and I – assuming we hit age 66) – am I wrong to draw any similarity with Bernard Madoff’s scheme? as there is no tangible pension pot.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • jack c @ 26

    It’s true that the day to day cotributions have always paid retirees, and never developed a ‘pot’.
    However it’s been so for a century, and to simply draw a line in the sand is cheating those that paid for mum, dad, and granny’s pension.
    It’s understood that this is a game of diminishing returns – and was so at the time Lady Thatcher bribed her police stormtroopers with absolutely untenable index linked pensions. I think we should resign ourselves to sharing out the cake a bit more equitably – or should we bring back the workhouse?

    We’ve all been voting in shysters and snake oil salesmen these last 30 years – they knew it, but figured rightly that by the time the sheet hit the rotary, they’d all be tucked up in the nursing home and some other mug would carry the can.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



  • shipbuilder says:

    If public services were privatised, does that automatically make them ‘wealth generators’? They provide a service that the public pay for – does it matter if that is via taxes or directly? So, in other words, the divide isn’t really that clear.
    I work for a manufacturer – technically I am a wealth generator, so by the ‘rules’ on here I can sneer at the lawyers, accountants, IT workers.
    Does anyone in the morally superior private sector on here want to be sneered at by me for being in a service industry?
    In other words, it’s all a load of b*llocks.

    Reply
    Please complete the required fields.



Add a comment

  • Your email address is required so we can verify that the comment is genuine. It will not be posted anywhere on the site, will be stored confidentially by us and never given out to any third party.
  • Please note that any viewpoints published here as comments are user´s views and not the views of HousePriceCrash.co.uk.
  • Please adhere to the Guidelines

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes:

<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>