Friday, June 13, 2008

No! No! No! No!

Ireland votes No to Lisbon Treaty

Ireland has voted No to the Lisbon Treaty, plunging the European Union into a new crisis. With results coming in from across the country, a final result of 52 per cent against and 48 per cent in favour of the treaty was rapidly hardening. A final declaration is not expected until after 4 pm

Posted by flintster1994 @ 01:04 PM (3111 views)
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69 thoughts on “No! No! No! No!

  • mark wadsworth says:

    I’m having a Garnier Fructis moment. Yes! Yes! They voted No!

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  • flintster1994 says:

    The interesting part has just begun. I for one will be eagerly awaiting the EU’s next move. Anyone fancy taking a stab?

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  • Thank you Ireland. Thank you.

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  • gardeniadotnet says:

    Well done that turkey!

    G.

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  • The old ploy of voting ’till they get it right will be used.

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  • japanese uncle says:

    The Daily Mail’s anti-free-plastic-bags tactics seem to have turned out useless. Congratulations!

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  • paranoia blue says:

    “Thick Irish” ??? Definitely an oxymoron this time – thankfully !!!

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  • need-a-crash says:

    @3. Montesquieu

    The EU wouldn’t know what democracy was if it hit it in the face. The whole thing is just a bureaucracy machine to keep the staff of Brussels and Strasbourg in their lucrative jobs, at our expense!

    Good on the Irish! The one truly democratic EU state which actually allowed its members a say on this radical constitutional change.

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  • Sensible things the EU wants to do????? Like allow referendums ? This is why!

    Well done Ireland.

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  • All the results so far are from rural Ireland, nothing from Dublin yet, so I think it’s a little premature. Still, if it’s a No, it’s a victory for FUD. Reports from the BBC suggest that a) people didn’t understand, so they voted No, and b) Irish neutrality was an issue. They will not accept any commitment to support any other European countries in the event of war, even in neutral, non-military ways.

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  • mark wadsworth says:

    Monty, Liechtenstain isn’t even in the EU, so what’s your point?

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  • In light of every other country being denied a vote I think the Irish no vote has done us all proud. Whether we need the treaty or not our incompetant leaders do not deserve our confidence. A no vote was the only rational outcome to this farce. For good reason, we have lost trust in our leaders and now they can’t offer guidance when it is needed, so they deny us a referendum which exacerbates the issue. Like most other forms of power the EU is a discrace. To preserve and increase their own power they must take ours away. The politicians are to blame for the no vote, not the people.

    The constitution will be back soon though. Blairs legacy depends on it. Perhaps they will conclude that we have to much freedom of thought nowadays, what with the internet and all.

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  • mark wadsworth says:

    Brian T, results from Dublin so far are here, ‘No’ votes are marginally ahead.

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  • larry pickleman says:

    it’s days like this that make me proud to be a thick and obstinate irishman.

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  • The Yes votes are 51%, no votes are 49%. Looks like they’re accepting it.

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  • My mistake – was reading the dublin area only!! The NOes are winning.

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  • The EU is run as a corrupt and lucrative rest home for failed politicians. It hates democracy and pours scorn on those who doubt its virtue.

    The 1% who were allowed a vote have said NO – now the rest must have their say if this treaty is not to be torn up.

    Fundamental reform is long overdue.

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  • They’ll change a few words, re-title it, wait a year then try again.
    The EU is a self generating and unstoppable juggernaut that will keep morphing until we accept it. I suspect it was designed to be like that.

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  • paranoia blue says:

    “self generating and unstoppable juggernaut”
    So was the Roman Empire but that has been “history” for a long time, even with “pax romana”

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  • larry pickleman says:

    local shops for local people

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  • I’ve always worked on the policy that if i don’t understand a contract, I don’t sign it. Seems the Irish have done the same.

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  • last_days_of_disco says:

    The margin seems to be widening not narrowing.

    I really think that the EU leaders have been appallingly selfish and short sighted. I don’t think the EU is a terrible idea as long as it can be kept firmly in check. This has not happened and it is taking a small country like Ireland to say what John Redwood said on our debates on the EU treaty that were rammed through by our arrogant out of touch Labour party elite: “this is not one step too far, this is many steps too far!”.

    % Poll 22.68%
    Yes/Tá 45.54%
    No/Níl 54.46%

    I don’t think that EU common market and community are bad ideas, but the socialist utopian vision of society has managed to basically make something that was good and beneficial to everyone an evil empire. I am really angry with the left for buggering up this thing that was actually a good idea when it started. Instead of just living and letting live they have to try and smush everyone to all chant in unison and, guess what, it isn’t working.

    We need to vote in the UK. Vote against anyone who isn’t willing to give you a choice on this, not because we are anti-EU, but because we should be give the opportunity to decide for ourselves.

    The EU needs to be radically reduced and simplified. I think those that have persisted in promoting the idea of an EU without the input of the people should be removed from office.

    Time for a general election.

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  • paranoia blue says:

    Re: LDoD
    Sound & wise words

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  • It’s not unstoppable, and will eventually fail. The only question is when.

    Don’t forget that as recently as 1985, many people thought that the Soviet Union’s expansionist ambitions were ultimately unstoppable. Then with the appointment of Gorbachev, The Bear stopped growling, and only a few years later, it all came to an end.

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  • last_days_of_disco says:

    @paranoia blue

    At least the Romans pitched up with an army and kicked your behind for you. And generally they were better organized than the people they conquered. I can respect that.

    This is like being taken over by a badly run local council. With them advising you which words are acceptable when referring to your fellow citizens.

    I think we vastly underestimate the Roman’s treaty making and legal capabilities. They would never try to enforce the ridiculous laws like xenophobia whatever that means. They held an empire together with more than just force and many of the administrators of Rome were genuinely interested in improving the lot of the people they ruled (Nero and Caligula excepted). They also did it without modern communication methods.

    There was a lot more trust in the Roman system than in the current ridiculous EU.

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  • paranoia blue says:

    LDoD
    Agreed. They built, positively, on what was already there. The Graeco-Roman system should have survived much longer. The problem was the “slippery-slope” towards self-interest, lack of general compassion, and hedonism. Ring any bells???

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Wohoo!!! We still have a UK Constitution. THE MAGNA CARTA IS NOT DEAD yet, but we have to fight for it. We have to fight for it and the liberties it gives us, like heabus Corpus. We must remember that it was an inspiration to the Founding Father’s of the USA, when they wrote the bill of rights and the American Constitution. The American’s, as we are now, were fighting, not the British, because we are represented by the Magna Carta, aka, the British Bill of Rights. They were fighting the British Bank-Arist-Ocracy, which has continually wanted an end to human rights, and end to liberty, because liberty for us ultimately means less power for them. It could also mean jail for a few of them.

    Just imagine how great our nation would be had we shook them off earlier and not paid BILLIONS into Iraq and HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS bailing out a currupt banking system. This isn’t Liberty, this is hedgemony, dictatorship and corporate fascism. The Nazi’s had National Socialism, our elite want Global Socialism. We don’t need a World Bank, and all the other corrupt institutions taking our money to do what? Have they ever solved any poverty ever?

    Lets take our country back.

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  • There is a lot of ignorance out there, including on this site. The EU is not fully democratic, nor is it transparent. As long as you have vetos you will not have transparency, which is why the roll out of QMV is a good idea. Along with that, at every treaty since the 70s, the democratic side (ie the Parliament) has got stronger and stronger. This treaty would improve that democratic voice even more.

    Also, remember that the remit of the EU is quite narrow — it does not stretch into education, housing or healthcare, for example. What it does do is to provide a framework on which all member states can develop policies that are in line with each other. This is having enormous benefits for all countries because (via the single market) trade is much easier across the continent.

    This is a setback to the development of the institutions that are needed to make the wheels of European governance run more smoothly. It won’t cause Europe to break up, and it doesn’t mean things go backwards, they just don’t go forwards.

    If you want to be a member of the global community then more political integration within Europe is the only way to go. If you think the UK can pull out and do it alone you are, to be brutally honest, living in Aristophanes’ cloud cuckoo land. If we pull out of Europe we will, soon enough, because as useless as Albania once was. Our currency will go down the pan and our Economy with it.

    What’s the betting some of you won’t agree with this?

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Oh, and look at how Germany and France are issuing a JOINT STATEMENT on the treaty. Aren’t each supposed to represent their people? It is so bad now, that governments can only look to each other for support, because they have none at home. I heard that 75% of Germans want the Deutsche Mark Back, that most are opposed to an EU Constitution, or a treaty that pretends to be a constitution. And the French voted it DOWN.

    After all that was done to retain sovereignty following WWII, the French must be devastated that their government is joining forces with the German government against their will and better interest. And the same applies to how the Germans must be feeling right now.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Dude, its not about pulling out of Europe, its about pulling out of Fiat currency, its about sound money, civil liberties, etc. The ECB is much the same as the BOE right now. This needs something similar to Ron Paul’s revolution. AND, I tell you what, I can’t see myself staying in this country much longer if our liberties keep being eroded. My plan B would be move to America if the Constitutionalists led by Ron Paul get in.

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  • mark wadsworth says:

    Dude, seriously, why would we do any worse than Norway, Iceland or Switzerland? OK, Norway has oil/gas and Iceland has fish and thermal energy, but Switzerland has tricky terrain, no raw materials and no coastline.

    What does Switzerland have? A millenium of neutrality, independence and democratic self-government (and plenty of fresh water and milk and lovely scenery, that’s by-the-by).

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Milk and honey don’t flow from a superstate hedgemony. These Global Socialists, Euro Socialists try to make us believe that we can’t look after ourselves! Its an illusion. Why? Because by corrupting the monetary system, they took away our ability to look after ourselves.

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  • ”Have they ever solved any poverty ever?”

    In my view, the ability to solve all poverty is a myth, whether it be world poverty, child poverty or whatever. It is an unachievable utopia used by politicians to boost their opinion ratings.

    It is the very nature of life, including human life, that the margins will be exploited. There will always be somebody eking out a miserable existence on the fringes of society. If you went to the slums of some inhospitable corner of some God forsaken country and gave every resident a million pounds, you can guarantee that within a brief period, a new poor society would have sprung up around the nouveau riche you had created, living on the scraps they had discarded, once again on the fringes of society.

    Nothing to do with NWO or power elite shifting wealth – just nature. Depressing thought, isn’t it, but it shouldn’t stop those of us in our comfortable, middle class,hunger free lives from doing what we can.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    By the way guys. The close vote is misleading. Note that, the No camp won against a backdrop of media support for a yes vote, and, all major parties, with the exception of Sinn Fein, campaigned for a Yes. This is not only a vote against Lisbon. It is a vote against Plutocratic politicians, corrupt media. To sum it up tho, this is a vote for POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

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  • planning4acrash says:

    P.doff, you know nothing about fiat money, sound money, etc. have you listened to those henry hazlitt clips I sent you?

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  • 24. uncle tom said…
    It’s not unstoppable, and will eventually fail. The only question is when.

    I’m not so sure that the past is such a reliable indicator of the future. It is possible that the relevant techniques and ideas have moved on somewhat. I know where your coming from but you know what they say about assumption…..

    28. dude said…

    As an ideal the EU treaty may make sense but the people running the show are as bent as a wad of 9 bob notes! Same old problems.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    As S2R said, we have a lot of destruction to go. Insidious undemocratic international organisations like the world bank will have to implode too, our fiat currencies need to end. Hierarchies everywhere are breaking down now. I feel it at work, see it on the streets. Consciousness is shifting. I’m still waiting for July6th that S2R talked about. Note how Ron Paul left the Presidential campaign almost the same time that David Davis quit his post to put debate to the country. Well, Ron Paul is shifting gear now, avoiding absolute power, focusing on devloping his local support for libertarianism. To nurture a grass roots revolution. The old world is falling, rest in peace 250yrs of power, welcome into your life grass roots, locally driven ethics!

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Oh, my good god. check this out! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7452117.stm

    – Basically, it looks like even Labour may not stand against David Davis on the by-election. It looks like the power elite have lost grip on even the Labour elite! It appears that an ex-editor of the Sun will stand against David if nobody from Labour stands! The elite can’t stop their march to destruction. This is amazing! It is the viel being dropped. Murdoch, not being able to garner support from politicians, is planning to enter the commons without a viel!! IT WILL NOT STAND. This will beautifully demonstrate what has happened for years, that the media carry out propoganda. Whether or not it will expose the people up higher, the Bilderburgers, et al. and the financiers, well, if their instruments of control fall down, they will be next to be exposed. I hope that they are preparing those trial courts in the Hague! Tho, wouldn’t it be great if each nation could try one of the elites. After all, they consider themselves to be globalists. Throw them to the mercy of the electorate!

    Oh gosh, this is going to be fun!!!!!!

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  • sold 2 rent 1 says:

    Sending this from an internet cafe in Ireland (on holiday)
    Fantastic news. D-Day landings and all that Mayan Calendar WW2 nonsense.

    Question is what is David Davis’s role in this fifth night destruction?

    Role on the black swan event around 6 july 2008

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  • montesquieu says:

    Sad to read the usual rabid anti EU nonsense. If Europe is to any future at all in a globalising world, it can’t be as a motley rat-bag of outdated nation states.

    It may not be perfect but the EU is the only show in town for maintaning Europe’s weight in the world. The Little England brigade are living in the cloud cuckoo land. A debate is still raging about the EU’s future, and yes some contributors to this debate (who have seen the federal system work well in Germany in particular) are federalists, others want an entirely new model. This debate is ongoing and far from settled. Yes the EU is still far from perfect but it’s quite a young organisation. It needs our time and input, not (in classic English tradition) another bout of ignorant foreigner-bashing.

    There are many good things in the Lisbon treaty which are urgently needed to enable an expanding EU to function. By rejecting it wholesale the Irish have shown that they are a pretty mindless bunch easily manipulated by a vocal mob with axes to grind who just happen to own a lot of media outlets.

    The Euro is a bit of a side issue, in general we should join it but only once structures have been refined sufficently to enable regions to keep a degree of control over the side effects of having one currency and one interest rate. That hasn’t happened yet, so we haven’t joined (simple – any other stance is emotional twaddle). Likewise our opt-outs on key treaty provisions – such localisation is allowed under the EU’s own structures and we benefit from that. What’s the problem then?

    Without the EU we’d be in a far weaker position to resist things like GM crops from US agribusiness, and have far less protection of consumer rights, the environment, or indivdual liberty (being at the mercy of our own courts, self-appointed and run by stuffy old British elites). Yes we have to give up some things to join this club but on balance, it has to be worth it – as one of the larger member (at least post-Lisbon!) we get an appropriate amount of say in what happens.

    Thank god for Brussels, and to hell with the little England, keep the immigrants out, bring back hanging Daily Express mindset which, to my shock, I find well-represented here, thinly camouflaged under a veneer of liberal democracy. Do you anti-EU people really want to be on the side of Rupert Murdoch on this one?

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  • Europe wanted to get rid of it…. but democracy prevails.

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  • uncle chris says:

    Thank God for Ireland – well done them. Maybe the death of democracy at the hands of Brussels may well be avoided.

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  • musn't grumble says:

    The EU treaty is DEAD – long live democracy ….. let’s hope it’s time to vote on our continued membership of this discredited organisation.

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  • paranoia blue says:

    montesquieu
    I presume your “Little England” slight encompasses, also, Scotland’s contribution to the debate. Unfortunately, it has been, sadly, diminished, in recent years, by circumstances out-with my control! Get real – shrug off external, manipulative control. In today’s parlance “get a life, and for heaven’s sake, hold on to it!!!”

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  • paranoia blue says:

    re: Uncle Chris
    Also, I would add, the death of any sort of common sense, or even, in the larger scale, true common justice. The fight is on!
    Let’s hope the classic oxymoron “apathy rules” morphs into a tautology based on the later! i.e. local control and debate, rather than “fascism from afar”
    ATB

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  • last_days_of_disco says:

    p. doff said…

    ”Have they ever solved any poverty ever?”

    I suddenly remembered what all beauty queens say, “I want to work towards ending poverty and world peace!”, Cheering from ogling guys in audience. Its sad that our politics have got to that pathetic level.

    monty

    We know there is a world out there. Being part of the EU doesn’t help us against the Americans. And why would we want to be against another English speaking country. No one else came to our rescue in the second world war. You speak as though the Americans are our enemies.

    We are fellow competitors with the Americans but I don’t see my close family as enemies (a number in my family are Americans). Its an illusion to think that a motely rag tag crew (Europe) can be forced together. The USA grew organically over a long time and was made up initially of a bunch of people who had the roughly the same language and religion.

    The EU has no real chance at being like America and the sooner we give up on that objective and aim from humbler ones, the better. Its hurting all the member states.

    The reality is that the EU is ok as long as it benefits everyone. You can’t break people’s basic civil liberties and national identity and then think its all going to be hunky dory. You think everyone just wants more stuff. That is the point. Socialism is wrong, poor people build magnificent Cathedrals because the love God, not because the fascist elite over class forces them.

    This materialist view of the world is a broken incomplete view of humanity. Being super rich does not make people happy. We are spiritual creatures and that is why we thirst for freedom and we can very easily detect when its not the real thing. The materialist elite is shaking their heads thinking, “We have given Ireland everything, how come they don’t choose to have some more?”.

    We are stuffed anyway and being a member of the EU hasn’t actually benefited the UK. We have been a net contributor. And in return what have we got. Our basic civil liberties subordinated to an unelected socialist overclass.

    They can bog off.

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  • paranoia blue says:

    LDoD Well said yet again
    PS Do you have any particular “50-70’s record” which sums-up or at least, contributes, to this present debate !! Let it “spin” constructively!

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  • 40. montesquieu said…

    “By rejecting it wholesale the Irish have shown that they are a pretty mindless bunch easily manipulated by a vocal mob with axes to grind who just happen to own a lot of media outlets.”

    We are just as mindless for not insisting on a referendum.

    Having observed the tendacies and motives of most politicians its no wonder we don’t trust them! They claim (in not so certain terms) the people are not generally informed/bright enough to vote on these things. Perhaps they should concentrate on informing us instead of sneakily spinning news and taking our liberties away.

    I can see the rational arguments behind the EU and globalisation and the reasons that we may be denied a vote but its not like the EU’s architects are the altruistic type now is it. The people who make it to the top will generally be the ones with the worst human qualities. All they care about is maintaining their power at the expense of ours. Why would they do anything else?

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  • No To Treaty says:

    As a proud irish person, i am very happy with today’s result! I have being reading blogs all evening and the majority of people thing us Irish have done the wrong thing? Why should we have give up our freedom to the likes of Brussels??? We fought long and hard for it so why should we give it up! Plus, in the last few dates we found out that if the treaty was passed, it could have being changed at any stage?? God knows what would have happened? We await a better deal…!
    GO ON THE IRISH!

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Sold2Rent, I understand now what the role of the NWO, et al is in our evolution. Basically, God. through them, is pushing us to make decisions and discover ideas to counter the power structure that has raised us this high, in order that we can reap the same fruits, yet be self-sufficient and free, in a Libertarian world ruled by ethics! We need to pray that they continue to push us towards that awakening, and that they, in the process repent and come to the light side!!!

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  • planning4acrash says:

    If Europe could produce a constitution and bill of rights as worthy as the US Constitution, scrap the ECB and have a true Gold Standard, and have a federal government that only got involved in Constitutional issues, then, it would be fine. BUT, the differences between member countries is so vastly difference that there isn’t the common interest on those issues that would be constitutional. It is right to have a forum for EU co-operation. One of the most damaging things has been the common agricultural policy, that has forced us away from surpluses in food and discouraged diverse local diets. The set asides were for the European level, so we have random fields all over the place doing nothing. Now, if you follow the national interest and think that we have too much agricultural land, you may get subsidies for landowners in national parks to turn their land into nature reserve status, and to operate more sustainable agriculture in those areas in particular. And you may well start a program of extending the national parks and starting little ones around the cities. We didn’t get any of that, we just got higher food prices and less choice in food!!

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  • japanese uncle says:

    Sir: Will you speal your mind?

    Fuc-i-ng dumb stupid Micks!! My job was almost in the bag. I want to strangle em all.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Oh, and here’s a reminder. Here is the ANCIENT BRITISH Constitution that was SAVED TODAY!!

    The Magna Carta, on Wikipedia

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  • A lesson for all those that think people are dumb and easily manipulated. The larger the population,the easier it is to manipulate! If this fact is studied it reveals the many reasons behind influence. (The impression seems to be : Well they must be dumb because they voted us in and we can do what we like as that’s the vote that counts.)

    Ireland being a small nation where inter-communication is real can be proud for standing for True Democracy of which Voting is integral.
    The EU stands for unhindered cooperation in Law, Rights, Education and Business not for Control. All the citizens of the EU MUST have the right to vote on any constitutional matter. Nothing else would be right. If Democracy is preached it should be practiced.

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  • Support the EU – branded a democracy and Magna Carta hater.
    Don’t support the EU – branded a Little Englander.
    Where’s the REAL argument in general circulation?
    One of my worries is that the EU is fundamentally corrupt. Should anyone disagree, please explain why no-one can balance the books over the last decade or so.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    renting2, any unaccountable, undemocratic political institution will always be corrupt. This is a truism, and has nothing personal against the EU, it is an undying truth that you do not surrender your rights and liberties to any organisation that does not represent you. Cue the global corrupt system, the UN, the World Bank, they will fall like flies, they are next. There is a wave of revolution flowing through the land, but this time it is based on information and ethics, not bombs, this is a peaceful revolution, where power and law are coming into balance to produce ethics.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    By law, I mean our constitutional right to liberty.

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  • Given the response on this blog, no wonder Brown sneaked off and signed the treaty in private. What a guy!

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Harold, you are so right! This, from Stuart Weeler’s website: Stuart Wheeler’s suing the Prime Minister!!!

    ——
    Judgment will be given at a later date. As soon as it is given the result will be posted here.

    One more point: solicitors for the Prime Minister refused, on technical legal grounds, to produce documents which would, I feel sure, show that the only reason he is refusing a referendum is that he believes that he would lose it.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    A vote here will be important, because the EU may well try to make small concessions and go back to the Irish. They have done that before. If two country’s vote it down, it is a dead duck, a dead parrot, a parrot that has ceased to be!

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  • last_days_of_disco says:

    It would have:

    Shuffled off its mortal coil
    Gone to join the choir invisible
    It is pushing up the daisies
    This sir is a dead parrot

    If only, the only solution is to start again. The rot has gone too deep. All the ex stazi officers see this as their ticket to rebuilding the good old days. We need a new leadership. Out with old and in with the new.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    here, here! – Us, the people will have to take it back, by countering mistruths as and when we encounter them, taking action when we have the chance, bringing along others who are willing.

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  • Its simple – the `Treaty’ is a side issue really. The EU elite are trying everything in their power to centralise governance of 27+nation states from one central manipulated president and board of directore (unelected by the millions of the electorate. 18 groups of politicians and ‘lords’ have voted to bring this change to all our liberties into action in the name of ‘democratic’ freedom, but the moment one nation, Ireland, actually allow their electorate their democratic right to a referendum, you see what all nations electorates would have done. This is why 18 nations refused even to offer theie electorate a referendum on the treaty and why a centralised EU power elite is exactly the opposite to the democratic oath. The Treaty is meant to bring all nations together, but in reality is further proof of the erosion of democracy within the Eurozone. Milliband is pushing ahead with ratification next week, even though to do so implies that the Irish vote is not going to stop the Treaty. Will the other 18 nation states, “elected”, political bodies decree that if only one state votes against it , it can still be passed??? (contary to EU policy). This period of time will be historically documented as bereft of political ethics and democratic fundamentals.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    The French, for a start, won’t let that happen. Cue barricades of the ports, the roads, the everything. It will not stand. And, we may get a vote.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Remember, that July 6th is possibly the date that the balance falls in favour of ethics over power, according to S2R’s analysis of the Mayan Calender. He’s been spot on so far. Lets see how it goes!

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  • Landofconfusion says:

    > 56. renting2 said…
    >
    > One of my worries is that the EU is fundamentally corrupt. Should anyone disagree, please explain why no-one can balance the books over the last decade or so.

    I agree completely. My problem is that we need an European Union of some sorts. The problem is this one is corrupt, opaque, undemocratic and just plain badly managed.

    The EU treaty is a good example of that last point and the Irish vote is a result of the publics’ perception of the earlier. The problem is what do we do about it? The US, Russia and China are quickly leaving us behind in a world which is becoming increasingly globalised and I can not see how any of the current EU members can hope to survive the coming future.

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  • p4ac – err, no … that was May 16th, apparently:

    He then started wittering on about Dwain Chambers. That’s what actually happened.

    Here’s the prediction:
    http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/newsblog/2008/05/blog-slightly-off-topic-but-a-good-reflection-of-rubbish-mainstream-media-reporting-13288.php

    Here’s him desperately trying to make it fit:
    http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/newsblog/2008/05/blog-may-th-13327.php

    It’s only later that the 16th May turned into 12th-20th May to fit it to the Chinese Earthquake. Spot on? I think not.

    Worth also pointing out that all the WWII dates s2r1 has given are wrong, just plain and simple. Go look. D-day was June 6th, not 16th. Making it up as he goes along. p4ac, believing his guff only shows how gullible you are.

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