Friday, June 6, 2008

Are you a full or part time truther?

The fall of World Trade Centre 7

I've had much slack from this, but, central to whether we believe our government & press, on anything, particularly houseprices, is the 9/11 truth movement. If they can lie about that, they can lie about anything. Here, it is. The third building that fell. Oh, you didn't see that video? Well, here it is, & I've linked to a professional website. Few of us believe the Governments houseprice conspiracy theories, yet some are sucked into oil, food & water price government conspiracy theories. I posted this to ask, why do you still believe them, after being lied to repeatedly. Are you a full or part time truther?

Posted by planning4acrash @ 12:42 AM (1180 views)
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45 thoughts on “Are you a full or part time truther?

  • little professor says:

    I posted this to ask, why do you still post this shit, after being told to fûck off repeatedly.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    I will respond to people who ask specific questions, but won’t be responding to abuse. This post was my response to the earlier abuse, and my last. Watch the clips and come to your own view, and then tell me whether you can believe what the government are saying about oil and water prices, and housprices.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    Aristotle
    Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC – 322 BC)

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  • gone-to-colombia says:

    This has got nothing to do with HPC.
    I respectfully suggest that you find another web site to display these items.

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  • @p4ac: If you want a real conspiracy theory, try this story about how NASA tampered with their historical world temperature records. The ‘adjusted’ figures made global warming look a lot more serious: A Tale of Two Thermometers
    Also read the follow-up: Painting by Numbers: NASA’s Peculiar Thermometer

    If you’re in a rush just skip to the conclusion: “Dr. James Hansen is the person in charge of the NASA temperature data. He is also the world’s leading advocate of the idea of catastrophic global warming, and is Al Gore’s primary climate advisor.”
    Not so much a conspiracy, just our old friends the Vested Interests.

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  • God, why won’t you people give it a rest? This is a House Price Crash site, not a NWO all-exists-in-your-head ‘help-I-got-a-rectal probe’ conspiracy site.

    Even if it’s all true, it’s no more relevant to property prices than Colony Collapse Disorder is to the Board of Bradford and Bingley (just as the bees don’t care about mortgage lending).

    This is a media-facing site on house prices that is doing its level best to bring a fall in prices about and people like you are doing untold damage to that cause…

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  • new user 2007 says:

    Here is a conspiracy theory for you…

    Estate agents and the government have infiltrated this site to add stories that are so far removed from the housing market, that if anyone who is just passing through here sees them, they will be unable to take the HPC site seriously:)

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Lol!! I’m a Town Planner, and can’t stand estate agents! you should know that by now!! This is a follow up to my comments on doublethink. We all work out that the government lied about houseprices, but forget that they lie when the next story comes along. I always take an argument to its logical conclusion to make a point, and here’s the logical conclusion in government lies.

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  • Nickolarge says:

    The people who post abusive comments or ‘this is not the place’ etc are like unpaid censors. The beauty of the internet is that thoughts like this get aired in a public domain without going through ‘filters’. That means that you are obliged to do your own sifting. That’s a price well worth paying. Why do people even bother to reply with abuse and ‘I don’t want to see this’ comments? If you can’t answer the actual point made with intelligent comment you should stop and ask yourself, why?

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Titan, I don’t deny that I’m preaching.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Thanks, I’m surprised that you would wish to dislike anybody. The only reason I posted on the mainpage was because I was barracked with cheap insults when posting it on a thread earlier, so the point got lost. I am a person who is emboldened by abuse, because I know if resistance is occurring, that change is occurring.

    “Electrical resistance is a ratio of the degree to which an object opposes an electric current through it” Wikipedia
    – You cannot cause change unless you reach a place where there is resistance to it. So, debate, discourse, and discomfort is a necessary element to any kind of real change. I’m pushing this, because there is a blind spot in most bloggers to government lies. We debunk the government’s houseprice conspiracy theories, and oil and food go up, and we all believe the government conspiracy theory!! So, this is not about 9/11, its about telling people to wake up and start thinking and analysing properly again, as we have done the past year on houseprices.

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  • This is utterly irrelevant nonsense. Telling people to “wake up” to the “truth” is just patronizing. There is very little “truth” in this material except that which suits a narrow minded conspiracy based world view. Just another flavour of propaganda.

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  • Debate is good. Consensus is even better. But facts have no need for consensus. Truth needs no law to protect it. It is self evident.

    I really like to hear @P4AC’s stuff, but I can see that some are getting offended (ish). The precise point is that back in the dark days of the late 90s, early 2000s, anyone who said UK Houses were overvalued and were heading for a crash was derided, called a “tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist” and not invited to dinner parties, lest (s)he spoiled the fantasy of the suckers, sheep idiots Buy-To-Let Brigade.

    What I do find remarkable is the intolerance of some long time posters to new ideas after having gone through ridicule for the best part of 4 years (in some case 7 years).

    Any time anyone wants to prevent you looking at something, don’t you want to know what they are trying to hide? Why not let you examine the facts yourself and make your own mind up? Why the rush to predeclare a belief in something and then use threat of ridicule, force or ruination to prevent any dissenting opinions?

    What the courageous @P4AC is doing is exactly what we all have been doing by posting here over the years. We have a different point of view, which had facts to support it. It was a minority view, but then again so was Gravity, the idea that the earth was not at the centre of the solar system, certain tenets of evolution and even Dinosaurs. It just turned out that we were right all along. Funny that because we thought we were down to the research we posted.

    We debated. We researched. We insulted each other. But we all felt everyone was entitled to their views (within the confines of not threatening anyone or inciting anyone to kill anyone else) and we debated them. The quality of all our knowledge and analysis skills combined to produce something which garnered national attention – the whole was definitly greater than the sum of the parts.

    It was Open Source analysis – in my view the best kind I have seen for the overall quality and error correction. Posters who posted more relevant material got given more kudos. THAT is the way a rating system is supposed to work.

    I guess that makes us all intellectual Libertarians, who believe in the Free Market of ideas and methods and the right to hold whatever beliefs you want.

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  • Debate is good. Consensus is even better. But facts have no need for consensus. Truth needs no law to protect it. It is self evident.

    I really like to hear @P4AC’s stuff, but I can see that some are getting offended (ish). The precise point I want to make here is that back in the dark days of the late 1990s, early 2000s, anyone who said UK Houses were overvalued and were heading for a crash was derided, called a “tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist” and not invited to dinner parties, lest (s)he spoiled the fantasy of the suckers, sheep idiots Buy-To-Let brigade.

    What I do find remarkable, however, is the intolerance of some long time posters to new ideas after themselves having gone through ridicule for the best part of 4 years (in some case 7 years).

    Any time anyone wants to prevent you examining an account of some event, don’t you want to know what they are trying to hide? If what they say is true then why not simply let you examine the facts yourself and make your own mind up?

    Why the rush to predeclare an unexamined fact as gospel and then use threat of ridicule, force or ruination to prevent any dissenting opinions?

    What the courageous @P4AC is doing is exactly what we all have been doing by posting here over the years. We had a different point of view, which had facts to support it. It was a minority view, but then again so were many things.

    • Gravity.
    • The idea that the earth was not at the centre of the Universe.
    • Certain tenets of evolution.
    • Dinosaurs.

    It just turned out that we intrepid, “ludicrous” posters on HousePriceCrash were right all along.

    Now isn’t that a turn up for the books? Because we thought we were right. But we didn’t just stop there – our positions were down to the research we posted. And most importantly, they were debated.

    We debated. We researched. We sometimes insulted each other. But we all felt everyone was entitled to their views (within the confines of not threatening anyone, committing libel or inciting anyone to kill anyone else) and we debated those views.

    It was Open Source analysis (in my view the best kind). Such analysis is in many ways superior to “expert” (there’s a prejudgement) research in overall quality and error correction. In very narrow areas, “experts” will be able to outperform the Open Source movement, but even then, that may be short lived. Witness Linux vs Microsoft Windows (a huge mismatch). Witness Hezbollah vs Israel-USA (a huge mismatch).

    HPC Posters who posted more relevant material received more kudos. THAT is the way a rating system is supposed to work.

    I guess that makes us all intellectual Libertarians, who believe in the Free Market of ideas and methods and the right to hold whatever beliefs one desires without interference (Private Property).

    The basis of a Free and Open society is enshrined in Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Ideas, Free Markets and Private Property.

    Let us not forget that. We are fortunate to live in a relatively enlightened nation, despite the attempts of our current leadership to Mugabe us into a hyper-inflated disaster.

    Let’s keep the torch burning. Let’s keep on debating. We may discover even more amazing truths.

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  • Well I don’t mind having a Conspiracy Post like this on HPC but if we keep it to one a day then anyone who’s interested can post/read there.

    It is frustrating if relatively unrelated links get hi-jacked.

    I’m mostly concerned about putting new readers off.

    So if you think about it I’m on your side really P4AC.

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  • it_is_going_with_a_bang says:

    With respect, you are missing the point. This is an HPC website and some of the theories / conspiracy ideas really have no relevance to HPC – however much you may wish to say they do – they really don’t.
    Nobody would deny someones freedom to speech. But if anyone os just going to use this blog as a free for all for any ideas or conspiracy then reading even the titles is going to be tiring.
    You would have to agree that if you visit :

    http://www.nhm.ac.uk/ – you will find dinosaurs if you so wish to see them along with ideas on evolution.

    You can also visit

    http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk – for ideas on gravity and where the centre of the universe maybe.

    Free speech is fine. But there is a time and a place for it to be exercised. I could for instance start debating nappies and toilets which would be great for free speach but hardly relevant and somewhat tedious.

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  • oh dear more embarrassing conspiracy theory rubbish.

    how did planning4acrash get posting permissions?

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  • holding out says:

    Loose change is a remade film (3 times) the first completely unconvincing version presumably convinced a few fools – probably P4AC with his legendary ability to seperate wheat from chaff would be amongst them. Doubtless bouyed by a growing fan base they have since re-made it twice more but it still contains inaccuracies, misquotes and is unconvincing. There is a spoof conspiracy theory about the sinking of the Titanic which is as convincing. P4AC – It IS a spoof.

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  • Last time I looked at one of these screeds, it went on about the amount of heat released by burning jet fuel, and claimed it wasn’t enough to bring the building down. It assumed the steel had to MELT before it would fail – not true: steel fails at a fraction of its melting temperature when under heavy load. It also said that the concrete floor slabs would absorb all the heat energy… what slabs? A plane just went through them, they’re now in bits several floors down, leaving a nice “chimney” to pull air in to the building to fan the flames.

    “Are you for truth?” No, I am for FACTS. “Truth” is subjective. This crud does not belong here.

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  • lvmreader said

    why not simply let you examine the facts yourself and make your own mind up?

    My problem is that it’s always the conspiracy theorists who demand we look at their evidence and nobody else’s. This stuff is discredited rubbish which you need to look at ALL the evidence to understand. But like I say “truthers” don’t want that. It’s insulting and they have manufactured their own set of conspiracies which they routinely lie about to bolster. Anyone who dares contradict them is rubbished and harassed. Alex Jones is the Daddy of them all, a raving nut job who is making a tidy living out of the “911 truth”/NWO movement. So please don’t patronize with your nonsense about looking at the evidence. Some of us have looked at ALL the evidence and not just that which conforms to our own opinion.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Brian, the first loose change video was a no/low budget program by a student. That’s why they got remade, but it still poses massive questions that have not been answered. For a more technical view look at this, this guy goes into the melting of steel right away at the beginning of the film. This is a uni prof:

    A comprehensive analysis of the NIST report by former Underwriters Laboratory engineer Kevin Ryan.

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  • Well, I suppose you can link just about anything to house prices with a bit of imagination and twisted logic, and use that as justification for debate. I mean the guys who claim to have invented the engine that runs on water (and I say ‘guys’ because the same claim has been made several times by different people over the decades) could suggest that this will slaughter the oil price and boost economies and impact on house prices. The conspiracy nuts who need to believe the garbage could claim that the inventor/inventors have been bought off or ‘topped’ by the oil companies and ‘elite’ in order to keep the secret hidden and maintain high oil prices to somehow transfer more wealth and power to the luminaries, thus keeping us all poor which would impact on house prices.

    Some of the stuff I’ve read on here over the last couple of days isn’t just crackpot, it’s — well, I can’t even think of a word to describe it. Somebody actually suggested that mobile phones were being intentionally produced to emit radiation to give us brain cancer to kill us all off so that the ‘power elite’ would benefit. I suppose the same person thinks that high voltage overhead power cables intentionally emit electro magnetic force to kill off people living in houses near to pylons for the same reason. Next we’ll be told that naturally occurring radon gas has somehow been artificially developed and is intentionally being made to percolate into dwellings to kill us off (but only in certain parts of the country, of course). You can take these theories as far as you like – I’ve just invented another one – we are being persuaded to buy convenience foods so that we will use microwave ovens so that the leaking microwave radiation will make us all sterile over the years, thus killing off the population.

    These posters are screaming out for debate and if anybody rises to the bait, logic is ignored, valid questions are not answered, and the same circular nonsense arguments are just repeated, taken directly off some silly spoof website and spouted as though it is gospel and factually proven. Somebody posed a question about motive yesterday – the response was simply that motive wasn’t important.

    I therefore suggest that any sort of discussion or debate with these people is futile. They are never going to accept anybody elses point of view, preferring to dwell in their own little fantasy world of make believe.

    Sad really, but I suppose it provides an opportunity for a few mischievous people to have a bit of a giggle.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Holding out, I wish it was a spoof. Simply too many unasked questions. Any you are willing to tackle?

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  • Debate is good

    Name calling is not an efficient use of time or energy

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  • What if the name’s backed up? s2r1 IS a fraud.

    Here he is, ignoring a criticism based on only his own words and contradictory statements, and instead choosing to threaten me:

    http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/newsblog/2008/06/blog-ever-wondered-where-the-banks-get-the-money-that-they-lend-you-14005.php

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  • “Name calling is not an efficient use of time or energy”

    Neither is debating with entrenched 9/11 “truthers.” Particularly in the context of the HPC.

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  • shipbuilder says:

    p4ac and s2r1 would like to convince us that there is only one ‘truth’ about 9/11 , if only we look hard enough for it. All seem, on the surface, along with lvmreader, willing to debate the topics and reveal the ‘truth’. So, as lvmreader says, why not simply examine the facts yourself and make your own mind up?
    You would think that there was no evidence anywhere but that supporting the ‘truth’. Yet 5 minutes on google reveals at least 3 or 4 websites debunking the myths. In fact, writers for Popular Mechanics magazine wrote a book on the subject.
    They have done so much ‘research’ on-line and elsewhere that surely they have already read, reviewed and dismissed the following. You would think.

    For a start Kevin Ryan, of UL laboratories, in the video above, in fact was employed by them to test water, not steel, yet was presented as an ‘expert’ in such matters.

    Loose change, constantly quoted as a source of the ‘truth’ was re-cut 3 times because ‘facts’ were disproven along the way.
    Members of the 9/11 truth movement openly discredit it.

    But let’s move on to the ‘facts’

    When I presented the first two to p4ac yesterday, he simply kept repeating his original points.

    1. Molten ‘steel’ was found at ground zero – kerosene does not burn hot enough to melt steel, so thermite explosives must have been used.

    -Apart from the obvious restricting false logic in that statement, kerosene may not burn hot enough, but other materials do. Fires raged for weeks after the collapse. The evidence –

    http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/Design/
    performance/fireModelling/nominalFireCurves/default.htm

    2. The towers fell at the speed of freefall

    – Video shows debris and columns falling in freefall, faster than the building. It is difficult to know how fact the building fell, but some reports show 16 seconds, longer than freefall. Anyway, have a look at this, calculations explaining how transfer of momentum could cause the buildings to collapse very quickly. –

    http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf

    3. Cuts in the columns prove that thermite was used.

    – Thermite does not cause clean cuts in metal. The photograph showing said cuts could easily have been taken weeks later during the clear-up when the workers did it themselves. See below –

    http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

    4. WTC7 fell without being touched and had minimal fires – proof of demolition.

    Below shows how it could have happened –

    http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

    In fact, the towers easily could have hit WTC7 when they collapsed, being 1300ft tall and WTC7 only 400ft away.
    As for them being ‘pulled’ – pulled with cables, not explosives, and deliberately left out of the video evidence presented by the conspiracists – see here –

    http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

    The sad thing is – these took me 5 minutes to find. One would think that with the level of ‘research’ carried out, p4ac might have seen them before.

    Anyway, in the interests of debate, i’ll let everyone judge for themselves. Perhaps it just needs a ‘change of consciousness’ to accept one side of the evidence, without research and without even considering counter-arguments.

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  • shipbuilder says:

    As p4ac himself says – So, this is not about 9/11, its about telling people to wake up and start thinking and analysing properly again, as we have done the past year on houseprices.

    Analysing properly? Is analysing properly referring to one youtube video, again and again, and a limited amount of websites.

    p4ac, s2r1 – Perhaps you could summarise how you sifted through the websites above, including the book written by editors of Popular Mechanics and came out in favour of loose change?

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  • sold 2 rent 1 says:

    Read Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory (Paperback)

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  • sold 2 rent 1 says:

    Comment fromm Amazon

    Professor David Ray Griffin’s first book on the atrocity of 11th September, 2001, was named The New Pearl Harbor. This was a clear synthesis of other people’s research, conveniently assembled in one book, articulately written and refreshingly free of hyperbole and foaming-at-the-mouth ‘anti-government’ hysteria. Written before the Independent 9/11 Commission published its findings, The New Pearl Harbor was in some way a plea not to ignore difficult and controversial evidence.

    Griffin’s sequel, was a book that responded to the official report on 9/11. The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, analysed how the Independent Commission handled this important but neglected evidence and also looked at just how independent this investigation actually was. From the title, we can tell that Griffin was distinctly unimpressed, articulating the anger and disappointment expressed by some of the victims families themselves.

    A few books later, Griffin has produced his most comprehensive work yet: Debunking 9/11 Debunking (a terrible title indeed). This book systematically dismantles the work that has been produced by the apologists for the 9/11 Commission and its Official Conspiracy Theory. The main offenders here are Vanity Fair (which was instrumental in promoting the NORAD tapes, which became the basis for the film United 93), the book Without Precedent, written by the Chair and Vice Chair of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas H. Keen and Lee H. Hamilton respectively), the NIST report on the destruction of the World Trade Center and finally Popular Mechanics book, Debunking 9/11 Myths. Griffin also looks at the mostly unconvincing arguments put forth by those from the political left of the spectrum, who argue that the whole ‘9/11 Truth Movement’ is a dangerous diversion from more important areas of popular struggle.

    It would be redundant, here, to explain Griffin’s arguments as to why each one of the pieces put forth by defenders of the Bush administration’s position on 9/11 fails to encompass all of the available facts. Griffin calmly takes apart and deconstructs each argument. This is not the work an academic theologian arguing that he understands engineering, construction, or military and defense issues better than those who have spent their entire professional careers within the respective areas of the 9/11 story – Griffin solidly supports his contentions with readily source-able information from Admirals and Generals, pilots, intelligence officials and physicists, engineers and firefighters, mainstream news reports and independent studies.

    Debunking 9/11 Debunking is an indispensable guide to the latest research on 9/11. It methodically demonstrates that, despite the best pretences of the liberal-conservative consensus, the alternative theory is at present, the only one that encompasses the majority of the available facts. When ideology is put to one side and a cold, hard look is taken at the evidence, the official version of events simply lacks credibility, as uncomfortable as that may seem. If nothing else, Griffin’s book is a reminder that the more evidence uncovered around the awful events of 11th September, 2001, the more questions that are raised and as a result, we need most what we haven’t yet got: a truly independent, international investigation.

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  • p4ac’s alter ego.
    I hear there is a debunking the debunking the debunking book out shortly, with an associated video to follow on youtube. But that hasn’t got much to do with HPC either, .

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  • sold 2 rent 1 says:

    James’ alter ego,

    Then there will be a debunking the debunking the debunking the debunking book.
    Anyway if all this does turn out to be true, house prices will fall much further as Asians pull the money out of western currencies.

    We already have the biggest debt bubble in history.
    Imagine if our currencies were destroyed overnight.

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  • LOL! s2r1. Yeah, I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. I’m not going to lose any sleep over it though, p4ac seems to be suffering on that score and I can’t see the point.

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  • shipbuilder says:

    39. sold 2 rent 1 said…

    Read Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory (Paperback)

    Really? Why have you never mentioned it before? You haven’t read it, have you, otherwise why would you post a comment from Amazon?
    The main point of my post was not to debate the evidence, but to point out the utterly woeful lack of research, logical thinking and insight you, p4ac and others have displayed by posting the 9/11 stuff, despite your grandoise claims to the contrary. It took me 5 minutes to cast doubt upon your ‘truths’.

    I think it should be clear by now the depth of thought and work that has gone into the multiple 9/11 posts we’ve had to endure. Let’s leave it at that and let people read about it themselves, if they’re interested.

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  • sold 2 rent 1 says:

    James,

    This is how common purpose got you hooked in

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  • sold 2 rent 1 says:

    shipmate,

    I have already seen many debunking the debunking videos.
    Stay in the dark if you want to. It’s your choice

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  • shipbuilder says:

    Then perhaps you could answer the question – if you’ve seen both sides of the evidence, it shouldn’t be hard.

    p4ac, s2r1 – Perhaps you could summarise how you sifted through the websites above, including the book written by editors of Popular Mechanics and came out in favour of loose change?

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  • I’m becoming very suspicious of shipbuilders a, ID b, motives

    something is not right – can’t quite put my finger on it

    seems my password has been blocked since posting Tim Corr & EU issues

    not much I can do here

    no warning

    no notification

    odd

    other sites are steaming

    best wishes to all

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  • sold 2 rent 1 says:

    No point shippy,

    You are so jammed in the old consciousness, you will be one of the last to learn the truth.
    Everyone takes a different path to enlightenment.

    There is no right or wrong way
    Some paths are easier than others.
    For whatever reason you have chosen the difficult route. Simple as.

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  • shipbuilder says:

    No surprise there then.

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  • have any of you conspiracy folk read the debunking to the 911 conspiracies published in popular mechanic YEARS ago?

    Another thing that is confusing me. What is the benefit to ‘blowing up’ WTC7? Most people do not even know the building existed never mind that bit collapsed on September 11? Some one on Youtube once told me it was an insurance job. However, I pointed out that the insurance companies are part of the banking elite so they would be claiming from them selves. He responded that they did it to raise global insurance premiums!

    All these NWO postings have gone well beyond interesting. Put them in the off topic forum or crawl back under your tube rock. No one hear is ‘threatened’ by your message. Though I am sure that is how it plays in your head. This is just not the forum. Your behaviour is typical of NWO conspiracy folk. You invade irrelevant web spaces and attempt to take them over. When you are banned you then claim it is part of the conspiracy. Likewise, evidence for your theory is accepted, on the other hand evidence against is proof of the cover up and the conspiracy itself. It is unfalsifible and nonsense. I am more than happy to debate these things in the right context and have done so. Just not here.

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  • Gosh, I’ve been watching for a while, and, I just have to say, I’m not keen on this being a focus for the website, but I am so surprised that bloggers here would want to put energy into protecting the Bush Administration’s story, regardless of whether you believe it or not!

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  • shipbuilder says:

    s2r1 – Had a bit of a moment of clarity reading your posts last night, when you mentioned the ‘preservation of wealth’. You see, when I had my ‘consciousness change’ years ago, it was a realisation of the real meaning of ‘wealth’ i.e. not money. I can now see that, when presented with injustice and corruption in the world, you chose the Ron Paul/Alex Jones route because your main concern is one of money, rather than ethics or anything else. So you were right – we are on different levels and speaking different languages. Sadly, I don’t think you’ll ever really ‘get it’. Good luck eating your gold.

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