Saturday, September 29, 2007

Struggling to find a home for your family? Waiting ages for accommodation? Well here’s some news to cheer you up!

10,000 council houses given to immigrants in a year

Immigrants were given the keys to 10,000 council houses last year. The Government figures reveal the pressures which immigration is putting on housing and public services. Foreign nationals are legally entitled to social housing. Last year only 25,596 new social housing homes were built. Just a minute isn't 10,000 divided by 25,000 roughly 40%.!!!!!!!!!

Posted by sovietuk @ 10:35 AM (1158 views)
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37 thoughts on “Struggling to find a home for your family? Waiting ages for accommodation? Well here’s some news to cheer you up!

  • planning4acrash says:

    What they forget to say is that Brits are entitled to welfare payments and housing if we move to another European country. Costa Del Sol anybody?!

    I bet there’s some playing with stats, how do you define an imigrant?! I hope they don’t include second generation immigrants or those who’ve been in the country for more than 3yrs. Remember that London will skew the data considerably.

    You only get half truths, and lies damn lies from the Mail when it comes to stiring up racial hatred for the sake of earning a few bucks.

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  • I worked in housing law and its not necessarily the immigrants that want it it is other factors like the mea culpa and strict political correctness of Local Authorities that is to blame for this. And yes they do get priority over Joe Bloggs from the Uk and yes it is also second generation. You can play clever definition time on priority need with second generations. Ie Abdul has second generation in … couldn’t possibly settle elsewhere because ties etc…

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  • If this is true (and if they are government figures then they are probably an underestimation) then it is absolutely disgraceful. I know of many decent, working (i.e. paying their taxes) local families that have been on the shropshire council house waiting list for years. I’m aware many of you here disagree with my views, but we really need to start looking after our own. The more the establishment panders to immigrants, the more anger and frustration it generates in established communities, and the more damage it does to any chances of community cohesion. Politically correct policies like this do more damage to racial integration then groups like the National Front could ever hope to do.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Uncle Chris, I don’t disagree with you that people on a housing waiting list shouldn’t be waiting long, but just remember that the Daily Mail is a VI when it comes to inciting racial doubt and they skew stats and tell half truths (never the good news) when it comes to this type of thing. I’m having a go at the Mail.

    Apparently Brits are entitled to UK level social security payments in Poland, did you know that? Oh, the Mail forgot to mention that.

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  • Uncle Chris. I have sympathy with your views. When I lived abroad, I lived among other British citizens. The Locals had very mixed views of us. Many of the Brits just kept to themselves and didn’t adapt their behaviour to fit in with the local community which naturally caused some offence and resentment. Others like myself mixed with the local community and at least tried to learn the language. I grew to like and respect the locals and they in turn were very good to me, but those Brits who continued to live as if they were still in Britain, tended to have little respect or love for the local community, and in turn were not much loved or respected by the Locals either.

    P4ac. If Brits are entitled to UK level social security payments in Poland, does that mean the Poles are entitled to Polish levels of social security over here?

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  • planning4acrash says:

    su, I’m not sure.

    In the UK, particularly London, foriegn communities tend to be very open and really turn the place into an amazing city, like the Bangladeshi’s in Brick Lane living alongside all other communities, yer, some are insular, but many aren’t. I had this conversation recently from an Indian guy who was worried that London is becoming Ghettoised, but, if there isn’t a critical mass of people in one place from a culture, then that culture is lost, because cultures are about social patterns and connections that need to be sustained by interaction. So, there’s a balance to be had. We need a level of polarisation (anti-multicuturalism) to produce the diversity that multiculturalism requires.

    I think London has the balance right in most parts, tho I’m sure that there are many barriers that could be removed. Just remember that an immigrant is as much a Brit as somebody born here once they have a passport and visa and pay taxes. Infact, they provide more than locals, because they have been educated by tax payers in another country, so that is why they are just as entitled. Now a better argument is to discuss the quantity of un-skilled/skilled imigrants that the country needs/has capacity for, but once we accept people into the country they have the same rights as the rest of us, and remember, if you go back far enough we are all imigrants. Do we really want a two-tier system? But for sure, we need to make sure that locals aren’t put the the sideline.

    Behind all the noise, what I’m trying to say is that, when discussing racial issues, lets have a balanced discussion, but relying on the Mail for stats is like relying on estate agents for info about the housing market.

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  • uncle chris – when you say it is time we started looking after our own I have difficulty understanding what you mean.

    After all – we are all humans are we not? In the EU?

    Are you saying that you would rather support some teenage chav with 10 kids and no intention of working – so long as she’s british – rather than a decent honest hard working foreigner with every right to be working in Britain?

    Because I for one would not.

    And are you saying we should restrict the number of Brits who leave? Would you want your passport confiscated once the numbers are reached?

    I really don’t understand where you’re coming from.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Its called brainwashing inbreda, its the same process that makes sheeple think that property prices will always rise. In this case, its in the interest of selling papers and the rightwing views of Mr Murdoch and his associates.

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  • Also I must add this is only available for citizens of EU.
    Not rest of the world that includes Africa or South East Asia. They are not eligible for any benifits as most people think.

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  • Hi, Inbreda ….. I wondered how long it would be before I got shouted at by you. As regards your points ….

    We are all human … yes, but speak to any anthropologist and they will tell you that we are also remain tribal in nature. Despite our perceived intelligence, deep down most of us crave to belong to a community of like-bodied and like-minded individuals. This is human nature, and no airey-fairy politically-correct ideas to socially engineer a peaceful multi-cultural society is ever going to overcome tens of thousands of years of human nature. Despite what the politicans may suggest, racial segregation in the UK appears to be getting worse, and this is wholly due to the unsustainable levels of immigration we have been subjected to over the past few decades.

    You won’t be surprised to find out that I am extremely anti-EU. I have never been offered a say on whether I want to be dictated to by unelected beaurocrats in Brussels, and if it was up to me I’d be out of the EU in a shot. Why our politicians have given foreign powers the right to meddle in our domestic affairs is a mystery to me.

    I think we need to ask ourselves why these ‘chavs’ (as you call them) have lost all hope in a system that appears to write them off as no-hopers on the one hand, whilst on the other, bends over backwards to support immigrants. We are a small and crowded country with limited resources, so those resources should be directed into creating opportunites for those that already live here. The problem is that politicians are looking for short-term fixes (damn the consequences) and do not have the vision to tackle the long-term investment to turn around Britain’s dis-enfranchised communities.

    Regarding restrictions on UK citizens leaving. Frankly, it is up to individual countries on what policies they adopt. I would not presume to dictate to other nations who they should or should not allow in. I just want my own politicians to start listening to the often silent majority, and start reversing the open door policies on immigration before the tolerance of that silent majority finally snaps.

    Hope that gives you a better insight into ‘where I am coming from’.

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  • Cheekie Charlie says:

    I bet if you moved to poland and walked into the local social security and asked to be housed and fed they’d think you meant the local asylum. But it just isn’t going to happen is it!

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  • (Tongue in cheek note): It would be nice to have a “one in one out” policy.
    Let one hard working Polish family in, but ensure that a non-working Blair legacy benefits dependent family are supplied to Poland in return.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Uncle Chris, I for one wouldn’t have liked my Grandmother from Italy to have been treated like a second class citizen, I’m a third generation imigrant, where is your bloodline? Did you know that Hitler had Jewish blood?!

    You appear to talk from a pedestal of “common sense” are against “political correctness gone mad” and forget that you are repeating Daily Mail headlines based on half truths that express negative news and hide the good, show misinformation with manipulated stats, without any second thought, they are brainwashing you!

    Sure, maybe we need to be more strict about immigration and maybe we should be thinking about how many people this country can hold, but ANYBODY who has been invited to our country is given a visa and allowed to pay tax MUST NOT be treated like second class citizens. They are citizens and have human rights and your taxes haven’t been spent to educate them. So lets seek equality and not sound like ignorant, small minded, racist inbred pigs from the Fast Show eh?! This website isn’t a pedestal for your fascist viewpoints, and they are fascist, even tho the Mail and the like have expressed them in a way that lets them be a suitable topic for middle england dinner parties.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    “just want my own politicians to start listening to the often silent majority, and start reversing the open door policies on immigration before the tolerance of that silent majority finally snaps.”

    I for one will be leading a full blooded bayonette charge against, splattering the town with bright red blood if the Daily Mail “silent majority” army even think about daring to leave their cumfy armchairs to do something about the imaginary threat of OUR thriving minorities.

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  • I suspect the main issue is that we are all, to a degree, a product of our environment. We are all influenced by our personal experiences and those of our friends and families. The problem comes when the well-being of one group of people is in direct conflict with the well-being of a different group of people. We naturally tend to align ourselves with the group that we feel more familiar with.

    But the nice thing about discussion it that we get to see the other point of view, which is often equally valid, although we may not see it as such. If we all learn to see things from both perspectives we are more likely to be well-rounded individuals.

    It would be nice if there was enough social housing to supply everyone’s needs, but that isn’t the case at the moment, and I’m not sure it ever was. Perhaps someone older than me can tell us if there was always a long queue for social housing before immigration became an issue. I vaguely remember a lot of resentment being targetted at young girls who were getting themselves pregnant to skip the queue.

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  • @uncle chris: “…speak to any anthropologist and they will tell you that we are also remain tribal in nature.”

    An anthropologist might tell you that, depending on who you ask, but I’d imagine the majority wouldn’t say it like that, i.e. in a way that a layman could so easily misinterpret.

    “Pop-science”, “common sense”, and “accepted truth” are by definition an approximation to the the way things actually work, and approximations lose important detail… i.e. become inaccurate, and open to misinterpretation. You need the full facts to understand.

    I’ll give you a clue… try to define “tribe”. You’ll soon find that the “non-immigrant” residents of the UK are not a single “tribe”.

    A student of anthropology, or of history would remember that before bigots hated black people they hated the Irish, and the French, and the Welsh and the Scots, and when there were only english people around they hated people from other towns, women, homosexuals, people from other classes, protestants, people with new ideas (Galileo anyone?), the list goes on.

    What you’re doing is projecting your own fears onto the human race as a whole. Your description of the opposing view as “airey-fairy” is a dead give-away that your argument is rhetorical not rational, which means you’re hiding your real argument for reasons only you can explain.

    Science should be used to form opinions, not back up opinions that already exist. Since you do not seem to be a scientist I would guess that you are not interested in proving the truth for yourself. I would bet money that you cherry-pick pseudo-scientific quotes to suit a pre-existing opinion. That is not science, and not accurate.

    If you consider my assessment of you unfair, feel free to try to change my mind. After all, I haven’t personally asked every living anthropologist whether or not they believe that humans from different cultures are incapable of mixing peacefully.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Su, that point about girls getting themselves pregnant probably shows what most feminists know, that arguments such as the nationalist one are often from a male perspective. Girls don’t get themselves pregnant, they have sex with men! So, are the men altruistic? Going round impregnating women so that they can get council houses? Nah, and this is my point about half truths. Its true that the woman got pregnant, but the truth is half because it doesn’t point out the role of the man who walked away. Many stories about immigration follow a similar vein

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Su, that point about girls getting themselves pregnant probably shows what most feminists know, that arguments such as the nationalist one are often from a male perspective. Girls don’t get themselves pregnant, they have sex with men! So, are the men altruistic? Going round impregnating women so that they can get council houses? Nah, and this is my point about half truths. Its true that the woman got pregnant, but the truth is half because it doesn’t point out the role of the man who walked away. Many stories about immigration follow a similar vein

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  • My 2 pennies: Treat any article from the modern media conglomerates with half a kilo of salt. Here is the logic: Drama is easier to sell than documentary.

    People don’t want to read news, they want to read about how X or Y boogie man of the day is going to affect them or their loved ones (terrorists, paedophiles, youths, immigrants), or about the latest celebrity misdemeanour. Real issues affecting the world are swept to one side in favour of this pseudo-news-drama bullcrap.

    Ok, rant over.

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  • I won’t respond to UC’s points because I think others have done a good enough job – and besides it’s obvious he has an agenda.

    Su “We naturally tend to align ourselves with the group that we feel more familiar with.”, could also be interpreted as creating boundaries in order to alienate other people so that we have someone else, collectively, to blame for our own inadequacies. Like wot Uncle Chris duz.

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  • P4ac. You seem to be on top form today, but I’d hate to go a few rounds in the boxing ring with you right now! All that fiery Italian blood flowing through you veins… 🙂

    Seriously, though, you make some good points in many of these blogs. It’s good to see how different people think – widens the overall picture.

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  • Inbreda.
    I don’t think UC is the only one. I think, if we’re honest, we all do it. We all have a tendancy to think our own opinions are the right ones. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they’re not. But if we are aware we could be biased, then we are more likely to be open to other opinions.

    I remember a wise teacher saying that when I point a finger at someone else, 3 other fingers are pointing back at me!

    I like debate, but I hate it when fingers start getting pointed! It normally means someone either has been hurt or will get hurt.

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  • Immigration – always stirs up a hornet’s nest on this site, what a laugh 🙂 :-).

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  • Sovietuk. You’ve been very naughty! Go and sit on the chair in the corner!

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  • My goodness, I’ve stirred up another hornet’s nest.

    p4c, Beyond articles posted by others on this blog, I don’t read the tabloids as their style tends to be sensationalist – although not as sensationalist as bayonet charges. The Guardian and Times are more my scene. However, where articles chime with my own experiences and 90% of the people around me (you know the ones whose blood you want to splash about), I am more apt to make comments that may support their view. You ask about my bloodline …. my own research shows an ancestral mix of English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish back to the middle of the 18th century, but no doubt there will be some additional mix in there prior to that.

    rich, I never suggested the tribal referred to us and the immigrants. Look around the world and you will see thousands of examples of people gravitating to their own kind – whether it be Bangladeshi’s in Brick Lane, Muslim Communties in Rusholme (Manchester), Jewish communities in Golders Green, Greek populations in Melbourne or even English gatherings in the costa-del-whatever. I think your arguments about bigots, Irish, Homosexuals etc. only goes to confirm my statement that humanity is tribal. I am a scientist by the way, and was educated (first-class honours and PhD) at a University with a 5* rated Anthropology Department – following a career in the military (I’m ready for that bayonet charge p4c). I even did a first year module in the subject but mostly held in-depth late night conversations with various antropologists who held strong beliefs on many issues. To me the subject is wholly based around the tribal nature of humanity and aims to celebrate the differences between us. In my opinion, if you try to take away those differences, which you have to do to engineer a multi-cultural society at total peace with itself (and I challenge you to name one), then you are left with one bland society.

    My ultimate agenda I suppose is a strong desire to protect the British way of life I was brought up with and wish to maintain. My grandfather and great-grandfather died trying to protect the freedoms we enjoy and I’ll be damned if I’m going to stand idly by whilst politicians (with their own agendas) gradually strip away many of the things that have made us who we are.
    I know I’m going a little off point here, but I’m not the only one calling for curbs of immigration. This is a subject that obviously reveals strong opinions on both sides, but if unchecked has the potential to rip our society apart – I refer you to p4c’s blood thirsty (if not a little tongue in cheek – I hope) intent.

    Anyway, I’ll try not to respond to immigration posts for the next week, so we can get back to the business of falling house prices (finally).

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Uncle Chris, I’m sure that your Scot’s and Irish ancestors got blamed for many of the UK’s Ill’s before. We have a German monarchy, we have seen immigration for centuries, Jews, Hugenots to name a few, what you fail to understand is that those we give asylum to, those we give work permits to, they are part of the British way of life and their unique contribution is to be celebrated. I for example can pop down the road to have a tapas in a Portugese bar, pop down to Brick Lane for a curry, went for a Ghanaian/Nigerian meal last night. Can travel the world from the comfort of this amazing city called London. This is the British way of life. Tolerance is the British way of life. We were the first to globalise, not the first to have an empire, but ours was the greatest post industrial empire, where we embraced (sometimes with a hug of death) other cultures and people.

    If you want to discuss equity and ethics in housing, then we need to talk about Britain as a whole, because white middle class people aren’t the underclass, if you take a balanced view you will see that many ethnic communities face horrid housing conditions and that some white people face horrid housing conditions and we should aim to avoid any skew towards any particular race and try to understand housing needs locally. Its not about race at the end of the day, its about people and housing.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    P.S. My comments about bayonnets weren’t tongue in cheek. I would risk my life and kill if there was a true risk of an actual fascist revolution in London. It could happen, sooner than you think if peak oil hits, a great depression begins and many people loose their jobs and government can’t afford the dole payments and the NHS goes bust and people like you go burning houses of defenceless minorities. I’ll burn yours.

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  • Uncle Chris. I totally understand what you’re saying. I’ve been a foreigner myself and experienced the delicate tensions between host culture and “alien”. This has made me much more sympathetic to foreigners in this country. But I also like the British way of life, while appreciating what the foreigners can bring. I suppose it is a bit like an outfit which is enhanced by accessories. But if the accessories are too large or overpowering, the outfit is spoiled.

    I’m rather interested in Anthropology myself. Can you recommend any good books?

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  • If I could afford a decent house I probably wouldn’t be on this blog, and I don’t think the landlady would appreciate you turning up with firebomb. Incidentally, I’m not sure the minorities are quite so defenceless as you make out and probably have more access to firearms than us simple countryfolk. Incidentally, I would describe myself as coming from a left-wing working class background, although I have many friends from all aspects of society, so I’m not sure that I fit in comfortably with your “fascist revolution in London” theory. I’m fairly confident that my views on the dangers of unchecked immigration are reflected across many parts of society and in all the mainstream parties.

    Word of advice … with the recent laws about “incitement to murder”, you should be really careful about what you say on here, whether or not you mean it.

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  • SU ….. thanks for being a little more diplomatic than the rest of us and returning a sense of calmness to the proceedings.

    Regarding Social Anthropolgy ….. as I said I only undertook the first-year level module ‘SOCIETY & ENVIRONMENT’, which was only just scratching the surface of the subject, but in the above posts I’ve been reflecting somewhat on the ideas of Lewis Henry Morgan and his thoughts of “Kinship”. Although written in the 19th century, they still seemed to ring a chord with the world today, and are often quoted in more recent works. His signature work, and worth a read is “Systems of Consanguinity and Affinity of the Human Family (1871)”.

    Although for a more basic overview of the subject I would suggest the following:

    Routledge Companion Encyclopedia of Anthropology: Humanity, Culture and Social Life

    Happy reading ….

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Uncle Chris, there’s a name for a left wing fascism, its its call National Socialism, have a read if mein camp, join the neo-nazi club and mourn Hitler if that’s what makes you tick.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Uncle Chris, point taken about incitement, but hows about incitement to racial hatred? Doesn’t that make us quits?

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  • planning4acrash says:

    In anycase, my claim was highly hypothetical, on the basis that a civil war erupted that was not contained by the government and I’m sure the metropolitan police would do a sterling job at keeping you and your chums away. Its like me saying that I’d fight the Junta in Burma if I was a Buddhist who saw my family being shot down in Rangoon, I hope that my words were therefore hypothetical enough to not be considered incitement, the language was harsh, but it is important to take arguments to their logical conclusion to see what they could mean under bad circumstances, which could be here by 2020 if peak oil hits.

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  • Thanks, Uncle Chris. I’ll pop down to my library next week and see if they can oblige.

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  • @uncle chris: “rich, I never suggested the tribal referred to us and the immigrants.”

    Then why would you bring up tribalism as an obstacle to immigration? That seems like a suggestion to me. If it was unintentional then you should be more careful.

    @uncle chris: “To me the subject is wholly based around the tribal nature of humanity and aims to celebrate the differences between us.”

    Sorry to be a pedant but that’s untrue. The goal of anthropology is understanding, not “celebrating differences”.

    @uncle chris: “In my opinion, if you try to take away those differences, which you have to do to engineer a multi-cultural society at total peace with itself (and I challenge you to name one), then you are left with one bland society.”

    Two tricks in one, clever. The old “set an impossible challenge as if it proves my point” trick, AND a subtle re-definition of your point to make it more solid. I would agree that strong multiculturalism is a bad thing because it (ironically) promotes segregation, but that’s only a relative of the topic at hand, immigration. If you’re interested in discussing it I’d be happy to explain what I mean by strong multiculturalism.

    So, are you saying that blandness is now a bad property of society? Surely that runs contrary to your original position against immigration.

    @uncle chris: My ultimate agenda I suppose is a strong desire to protect the British way of life I was brought up with and wish to maintain. My grandfather and great-grandfather died trying to protect the freedoms we enjoy and I’ll be damned if I’m going to stand idly by whilst politicians (with their own agendas) gradually strip away many of the things that have made us who we are.

    Ironically the EU you rail against was set up around the remnants of post-war reparations agreements between France and Germany. One of the core ideas was to prevent wars like the one that killed your grandfather and great-grandfather from happening again (see the Hague Congress and the European Movement in 1948). Those who survived WWII believed that closer European ties would reduce the risk of something like that happening again. You’re using your relatives to support a personal agenda that they could well have fundamentally disagreed with had they lived.

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  • Seeing as p4c seems to suggest that, come the revolution, I’m planning to march down to London with a bunch of neo-nazi’s (or National Socialists) to burn immigrants out of their homes, I would like to state for the record (and you can read my earlier posts if you wish) that my argument is against the unchecked waves of immigration that we have seen over the past few decades, which has undoubtedly led to increasing problems in our society as regards to cohesion and integration. Hopefully my arguments are all about seeking to protect the British way of life and not, as p4c suggests, about inciting racial hatred. Please read them for yourself.

    @rich – much as I would love to respond to some of your comments and continue this argument, I think it’s probably best that we put this discussion to bed. In some ways it takes me back to many heated late-night discussions and debates during my University years. Thought I don’t agree with many of your views, I respect your powers of argument and am grateful that you chose to debate in a rational manner, and not to invoke terms like ‘nazi’, ‘racist’ or fascist – something that is often lacking when it comes to debates on immigration. And yes, sometimes I’m as much to blame as the next person in this respect. OK, back to house prices …..

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Uncle Chris, you may not realise it, but your are espousing social nationalism. As an isolated policy objective it is about the country’s capacity and is more about physical constraints. Multi-culturalism and the british way of life are seperate issues altogether, which are more to do with local democracy and maintaining civic functions of society, i.e. making sure that people have a voice and aren’t left out.

    When you start applying the logic of social nationalism to complex economic issues like housing it, you oversimplify the issue, paper over the cracks and become dogmatic. It is a half truth because some of the housing problem is about imigration, but compared to the credit mountain, it is a tiny issue, so you are magnifying its importance, probably because it suits your agenda, re: what YOU percieve to be the British way of life, and you may not be aware that this is the case, but it is the case. It is a slippery slope that was taken by Nazi’s to explain hyperinflation and unemployment and it has just one logical conclusion, so my references to them remain valid.

    The debate about imigration is therefore an important one, but it is plainly rediculous to put a primary emphasis on imigration for our housing crisis or any other, the fact is that the impacts of imigration tend to be localised as communities congregate in defined locations to maintain social ties and cultural identity, so specific waves of immigration bring up specific issues in specific locations, but all of these will be contingent with the specific issues of that area, and cannot explain the national picture. All I ask is that you put your concerns and agenda into perspective and that you be aware that the use of cliche’s such as “the british way of life” “political correctness gone mad” and “the silent majority” doesn’t amount to a reasoned argument but amounts to you allowing yourself to be brainwashed into a potentially disasterous political movement that will do nothing to solve any economic crisis, probably make it worse by taking away cheap labour that moves to deprived areas (thus uplifting them) and merely serves to cause great hardship, isolation, polarisation and suffering for minorities who have little voice in anycase.

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