Sunday, August 12, 2007

mmmm.. cheap mortages… i think not!

Deutsche Bank pulls UK subprime loans

So money is drying up already and our sub prime bomb, (sorry no sub prime in uk), is still ticking......... wow more fun to come. The mail claims BOE ready to offer unlimited funds to banks at base rate - will this help. I need a more knowledgable person to explain what this cheap money can achieve and the consequences??

Posted by waitingfor hpc @ 09:51 AM (621 views)
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75 thoughts on “mmmm.. cheap mortages… i think not!

  • Link don’t work!

    I guess they pulled it to prevent further panic

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  • stillthinking says:

    The people who sold the houses have the money already. In the situation of a single house seller, a single buyer and a single bank intermediary, the seller has the cash. The sellers cash is sitting in the bank and the bank is obliged to give it to them when they want it, the bank gets the money from the repayments on the loan from the buyer. The buyer in turn gets the money back from the seller through providing labour or some service. If the buyer says stuff it, then the bank has to provide all the money to the seller by itself.
    So the cheap money from central banks provides time for the bank to earn this money from other services. However, if the bank can’t earn enough money then they are bust and the bank fails. So the cheap money is only useful if the bank can manage to pay off the original seller independently, otherwise the cheap central bank loan achieves nothing but a delay on when the bank goes bust. The bank becomes cash greedy and sells to obtain cash and limits lending.
    So this happened in Japan, however Japan ended with deflation. If the bank goes bust the original seller doesn’t get the money back apart from what is realised from the sale of the banks single asset, the repossessed house, which is sold at a much reduced rate. So the extra money disappears from the system. So that is the deflation. But, in the UK there is inflation. So, basically, why is there inflation now if there is deflation in the future? I can see that the best thing to do would be to change everything to cash asap but I cannot see why we have interest rates going up now. Or are interest rates going up now because the general opinion is that the banks will manage to pay off the seller through their own resources, and the interest rates are there to limit borrowing? So everything turns on bank survivability?
    ?????????

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  • We have inflation now because that money that the homeowners “made” is being spent.

    There is only debt holding up the UK economy. If inflation continues unchecked the currency markets will drop sterling like yesterday’s cream cakes. Also there’s the moral hazard – if the BofE steps in to rescue everyone, they’ll see it as a checkered flag to overborrow again.

    The BofE is not supposed to target asset prices either, and that’s exactly what it’ll look like.

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  • Thanks for the links.

    Given that central banks are meant to be lenders of last resort the money we’ve seen pumped into the financial system in the last two days indicate how serious the situation really is.

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  • I’m deeply worried that the goverment will jump in and help all thereckless people who have bought when they couldn’t afford to. I along with many people on this site (i.e. the prudent ones) have waited unwilling to take the stupid risks to get on the market. If the goverment rewards these people who are financially illiterate then we should all leave the Uk. Can a pre-emptive strike be launched – i.e. protest (if we are allowed in this country), partition on #10, start court preceedings (compensaton for lost profits for not buying) – this may just make the government think twice before intervening before they think of intervening!

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  • “Meanwhile, his firm is still offering less risky loans such as buy-to-let. ”

    LOL – lenders still haven’t caught on to the fact that BTL loans will go down like dominoes once it starts to collapse – the problem is that the rents don’t cover the interest and they have not given enough thought to how the borrowers will cover the difference if they lose their jobs and/or can’t keep remortaging, – I know of a number of cases where there is no way out (short of winning the lottery..) – they WILL go under…

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  • I thought BTL loans were more likely to default – well according to recent research I saw on one of these blog postings. Judging by the increase in bad news stories in the past couple of months, it is quite evident that “Trouble’s coming like a train”.

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  • Surely if the BoE lets banks have unlimited cash then this will stop any sort of crash and let the markets recover?????

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  • waitingfor hpc says:

    unlimited cash from where David, it does not grow on trees??????? That is M4 money supply in another form which = INFLATION.
    Markets recover with debt they have taken on what about new debt and the re-financing of existing debt deals later on??

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  • stillthinking says:

    “Problem 1 needs interest rates to go up. Problem 2 needs interest rates to go down.”
    quoted from some pithy commentator on one of the links from this site. problem 1 was inflation, p2 was credit crunch.

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  • david20040_0 says:

    waitingfor hpc said…

    unlimited cash from where David

    The Bank of England has offerred unlimited cash at base rate.

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  • Yes, just right whpc. The Bank of England risks inflation running away, and currency traders fleeing to quality, i.e. dropping the pound and buying swiss francs or even … Japanese yen.

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  • david20040_0 says:

    Good if inflation rises that will mean higher rates and the housing market getting screwed over.

    🙂 🙂

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  • If the government is offering unlimited cash – which I don’t think it has – then it’s the perfect opportunity of getting the banks to get their collective acts together on the dangerous lending practices that caused this fiasco in the first place. All lending should be now be regulated, because it’s quite obvious that the banks can no longer be trusted to do the right thing.

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  • @david20040_0

    “Surely if the BoE lets banks have unlimited cash then this will stop any sort of crash and let the markets recover?????”

    I do not have sophisticated financial insight but surely the health of our economy ultimately depends upon our ability to pay our way as a nation. When the banks started throwing cheap money at whoever wanted it, we responded by borrowing more and more to create an asset bubble in housing. Now we are at very high levels of personal and national indebtedness.

    One way or another, the banks want their money back.

    The only way I can see out of the mess without a HPC is to print money and let the debts inflate away, for those who can hang on until inflation recedes; of course this will destroy the value of our savings as well.

    I do not see a happy ending. The only question is when we will be forced to reduce our standard of living.

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  • david20040_0 says:

    Uncle Chris the BoE is oferring unlimited cash at the base rate.

    If so surely any kind of big crash will be averted.

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  • The BoE is NOT offering unlimited cash at the base rate. It is the ECB who are making this offer based on applications from banks and upto a specific limit. This is because interbank loans were being priced at 4.7% above the ECB minimum rate of 4%. Indeed some say it is the fact that they are making this offer which has got the market spooked. Do they know something everybody else doesn’t ?

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  • Does pumping more money not lead to inflation?

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  • david20040_0 says:

    The BoE is offering unlimited cash.

    Darling (new Chancellor) is taking action on Monday to prevent the situation getting worse.

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  • Alistair Darling. One time transport minister. What a poisoned chalice!

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  • The BoE is offering unlimited cash… That’s a very scary statement to make; if this would be the case the pound will take an almighty hammering on the forex markers and we will go into hyperinflation… Of course that means peoples mortgage debt will inflate away but their properties value will also disappear through the floor.

    Just printing money does no one a favour and just makes the whole confidence issue worse, ask the Americans about the mid 1970’s!

    Doesn’t matter which way you cut it, the financial landscape that has been enjoyed by so many over the last 10+ years is gone and a number of asset classes are/or just about to go into reverse. Anyone who reads this site should already be covered off as best as possible (I know I am) but I am one of the 20% of private sector employees who’s company is owned by private equity… so who knows 6 months down the line I might be one of the rising number of unemployed!

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  • david20040_0 says:

    The Pound on Bloomberg is reported to be dropping quite heavily.

    It is overvalued anyway, £1 = $2-02 is stupid anyway.

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  • And what does the Bank of England have to do to stop the pound slipping?

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  • voiceofreason says:

    In response to “stillthinking” posting number 10 about Inflation & Credit Crunch:

    1. On Inflation:

    Another useful side effect of inflation will be to reduce the spending power of the so called “Golden Generation”.

    They have retired on final salary pensions, are living longer and are rich from (unearned) property capital gains.
    They have enormous spending power that creates inflation.

    IR increases just make them richer due to generally having net savings.
    Actually, if their pensions are index linked, then will inflation makes them richer too…

    Generally, inflation should reduce their spending power as I think their pension increases will only follow RPI up to a certain limit. Also their saving will be diminished.

    2: On a credit crunch:
    This will neatly solve the sub-prime issue. It will reduce the availability of cheap (5x salary) loans.

    Conclusion:

    So my guess is that we need both 1 (Inflation) & 2 (Credit Crunch) to get back to an orderly economy where cash is stuff you earn if you work hard and work smart.

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  • keep the interest rates and thus inflation in balance with overall health of economy.

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  • stillthinking says:

    Curiously enough, I just read this in the Observer (found on the tube), “55-plus group is very wealthy, on average. More than 70 per cent of the country’s housing equity is held by it, according to research organisation CACI. It has half of all savings and investments – and only 15 per cent of loans.”
    “They have been an exceptionally lucky generation.”

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  • According to the Guardian this is how the BoE offers money to the banks – http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2146544,00.html quite interesting charges them 1pc over bank rate 🙂

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  • According to the Guardian this how the BoE offers money to the banks http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2146544,00.html – quite interestingly it offers it at 1pc over the base rate 🙂

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  • So actually, the BofE offer is useless.

    Letting inflation run is not an option either. The Mervyn King of Wishful Thinking knows that that option is more than his fat little earning job is worth.

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  • I tnink Darling is just making sure his boss’s backside is covered. At least he gets bonus points for realising there is a crisis. Bit of a deafening silence IMHO from the other lot.

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  • The BoE offer isn’t doing anything new. It is existing scheme. If this offer is taken up it will involve charging higher rates then the existing base rate. Good – Go ahead!

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  • @ stillthinking

    You are probably right. I bought my house in ’82 and it’s gone up x10 since. In my road, hardly anyone new has bought/sold in the last 8 years.

    If the prices drop 30%, my over 55s neighbours won’t even blink at the pain caused to others, after all, the interest rate will be going up, won’t it!

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  • david20040_0 says:

    NO NO NO

    The BoE is offering unlimited loans AT the current base rate!!!!!!!!! Not above!

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  • “It charges a rate above the prevailing Bank interest rate and currently any bank wanting to use the standing facility would have to pay 6.75% for funds – one percentage point over base.”

    – according to the link.

    Do you know something different, David?

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  • David, you are a plum of the highest order!!

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  • david20040_0 says:

    The Times is reporting the BoE will give an injection tomorrow and offer unlimited loans at base rate.

    You guys are kidding yourselves, this supposed market crises will have blown over by Wednesday.

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  • David, optimism is great but also needs to be tempered with some realism sometimes. Considering no-one seems to have any real idea how big or how wide reaching the current problems stalking the markets are I think the markets are probably more likely to be extremely spooked over the coming weeks rather than “oh well, blip over, back to normal”. I see no reason why the bad news shouldn’t continue to come pouring out seeing as everyone has been gourging at the sub-prime trough.

    We shall she……….

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  • david20040_0 says:

    Look, I want a mega market crash.

    However, these drops of 3-4% have happened before, within one year.

    If the BoE, the ECB and the Federal Reserve go in and pump loads of money in then the chances of this turning into a full scale crash are minimal.

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  • Is this just a wobble or the start of something big? Well, I certainly haven’t a clue (neither do most contributors here either).

    The ‘expert’ on Bloomberg this am reckons the falls will be arrested on Monday/Tuesday by the injection of money into the system, but he says that the stabilisation will be temporary; he predicts further falls later in the week, with a general downward trend to the end of the year (with ups and downs on the way). He thinks there will be buying opportunities in 2008/9 as the correction plays out and recovery commences. This is just one guys opinion and I have seen many conflicting ones over the last few days. It is certainly going to be an exciting week.

    Wish I’d got rid of my Halifax shares!!!

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  • Because its really that simple..

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  • David said:
    >>However, these drops of 3-4% have happened before, within one year.

    I’m not sure whether you are referring to house prices or markets but I’m guessing you mean markets. The markets dropped 3-4% in a little over 24 hours. It’s difficult to see how the whole sub-prime collapse will end up. There is more to come this week in sub-prime tales of woe but I can see the FTSE having having a rocky end of the week in a month or two being around 5500-5700. I’m not convinced the sub-prime problems will force house prices to drop as many other sectors are strong, but the extent of sub-prime and how hard it will hit the US could open up a mother of a can o worms.

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  • I don’t want a mega market crash. I want some rationality restored to the economy. I would like for people to remember that money is the reward for hard work, not for colluding with estate agents and lenders to squeeze future generations of young families into misery.

    Credit is a measure of confidence, and throwing money at the problem will only fan the flames.

    It will look like an admission that the issue is out of hand and rapidly spiralling out of control.

    And if Mervyn King of Wishful Thinking budges one jot from his remit the markets will punish him tenfold.

    This is the price that is paid for laziness and complacency (Rachel Lomax musing “perhaps the MPC should meet once every two months rather than every month” last November).

    I will be genuinely surprised if not amazed if this issue goes away within a month let alone a week.

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  • david20040_0 says:

    At the end of the day it is very unlikely that this will have any effect on UK house prices.

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  • David is clearly on the wind up here.. either that or he’s a total berk!!

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  • @david20040_0

    Your are certainly the Devil’s Advocate for this topic. I am glad that somebody is putting up arguments against the gloom mongers but that said … I’m not really convinced.

    I do not have sophisticated financial insight but surely the health of our economy ultimately depends upon our ability to pay our way as a nation. When the banks started throwing cheap money at whoever wanted it, we responded by borrowing more and more to create an asset bubble in housing. Now we are at very high levels of personal and national indebtedness.

    One way or another, the banks want their money back.

    The only way I can see out of the mess without a HPC is to print money and let the debts inflate away, for those who can hang on until inflation recedes; of course this will destroy the value of our savings as well.

    I do not see a happy ending. The only question is when we will be forced to reduce our standard of living.

    The issue of whether or not the current liquidity problem will blow over or not is ultimately irrelevant. The real problem is that we are not paying our way as a nation. It might be tomorrow. It might be next month. It might be years away!! Sooner or later we will have to pick up the bill.

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  • Don’t be so sure. UK house prices have been in decline for a few months now it’s just been fairly well hidden from everyone who hasn’t sought out the Land Registry figures.

    In years to come the house price crash will be blamed on this event, and the market’s recent decline will be all but forgotten.

    Markets are not rational. They are motivated be fear or greed, or both.

    Keep watching.

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  • I would love you to be right Paul but I don’t think you will be.

    If the stock markets crash more people will move into property because it is perceived as safe.

    This is exactly what happened when people lost faith in pension funds.

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  • voiceofreason says:

    Less credit available = less people with money = lower prices.

    My family were trying to sell a lovely 5 bed house with 2 acres in the S West in 2000 – 2001. Back then no-one had any cash, so the price we got was appalling. Today everyone has access to hundreds of thousands, remove that access to cash and prices will fall.

    Simple !

    If the credit crunch continues, then we should see house prices fall back to long term trends.

    If banks & investors re-kindle their love of risky loans, then no, we won’t see house prices fall.

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  • The stock market crash is a by product of a credit crash. You’re respectfully confusing cause and effect.

    When the stock market fails there’s a flight to quality investment which last time round was property. This coincided with low interest rates, making it very attractive. That’s why the housing market ballooned into what it is now.

    But it’s all underpinned by a credit agreement. A promise. A contract of confidence between you and the bank.

    The terms of that contract have just been renegotiated, not by you but by the people they sell that contract on to. Because they don’t want that debt any more.

    The debt market and the property market are inseparably bound together.

    And right now, no-one wants to buy property debt.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    Doves will blame this on bringing interest rates too high, hawks will blame it on interest rates not going up enough or staying high enough over the past few years. The MPC will remain as divided as ever.

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  • David, I understand your cation, and I respect it. It’s very easy to think that we’ve got our way now.

    I will ask you only to keep watching, because I think, and a lot of analysts in the US think that this has a lot further to run.

    Hell when Dubya is wheeled out to say that everything’s okay, you know things are pretty fucked (scuse the language).

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  • Paul, I would absolutely love you to be right.

    But I have a horrible feeling come Wednesday we will all be back to saying oh well it must have just another 6 months to run again.

    There have been so many false dawns.

    Also when pension funds collapsed people piled into property via Buy to let, if shares collapse this could happen again further causing house prices to boom.

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  • David. If you think this will all be over by Weds you clearly understand little about what is happening at the moment. I work in the debt markets and this isn’t some storm in a teacup that will be over within a week. It is an event that is marking a shift in economic fundamentals. The era of cheap money and excess is over and there will be a lot of belt tightening on the way down. If you really think this will have no effect on a housing boom built on cheap and easy money then you are seriously missing the point.

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  • Okay keep watching – I promise this will not be “business as usual” next week, or the week after or the month after.

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  • Good evening. First post, so please forgive not knowing regulars or protocols…..

    My thoughts centre around why the BofE or other central banks are intervening at all. It appears to be to provide very short-term liquidity only. What puzzles me however is that this may simply enable the investment banks to liquidate their bad positions, whilst giving the impression the problems are not as severe to ordinary punters. It appears the US Fed may be attempting to support their stock markets through buying at key support points, attempting to force oil price down via Saudi friends and even buying key strategic company shares. If true, then these will become 1 way markets and will get hammered by the big players. As did sterling when Lamont tried to keep it in the ERM. Rates should keep rising, but it seems likely political pressure to maintain city jobs, prevent a housing crash and a banking crisis will inevitably lead to rates being relaxed sooner rather than later and sterling to fall back. Brown/Darling will want to avoid a recession at all costs. Sadly, these markets (housing market included) are effectively being “rigged” not to collapse, or at least not as far as they would otherwise do. At least not until the big players have got their money out first.

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  • OK, I hope you are right and that this is finally the end of this stupid charade of rising house prices.

    However, I think you are wrong and that if the stock markets crash severely that we will enter a new dawn of property price rises with even more people pilling into bricks and mortar.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    People piled into property last time because yields were good and there was potential for price inflation, profit was great and risk was low or non existent. That scenario does not exist today in the case of most properties. Investors will flee to low risk and solid yield, like last time, the investments that provide that heady mix have changed. Bonds and bank accounts can yeild 6% +, so, against a yield of less for houses that could crash, we are more likely to see an unwinding of the lowest saving rate that Britain has ever seen. This is likely to continue until rates go down again and other assets begin to yeild more than bank accounts and bonds. Its a cycle David, and last time we were at a differet point in the cycle.

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  • I’m not sure David is thinking rationally on this – he’s a little jaded like the rest of us. The facts remain though – p4c you’re absolutely correct – there is absolutely no refuge in property right now, and currently the annual price rise is less than the bank rate of 5.75% (or 6.25% on most savings accounts).

    THAT is what’s killing the housing market.

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  • OK, is money in ICESAVE safe though if the banks start going under?

    I thought the average price rise was still more than 10% at least according to Halifax?

    Surely if stocks keep dropping they will pile into property if you can make a 10% + return?

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  • planning4acrash says:

    i.e. prices of assets must come down before they go up again, they can’t go up again once they have peaked and don’t generate cash. One of the first thing you learn in accounting school is that an investment decision is based on profit above that provided by low or no risk bank accounts and bonds.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    David, you know full well that yeilds are only from price rises now. Rental incomes are yeilding well below bank rates. The credit crunch creates a re-assessment of the risk of whether asset prices will continue to rise because the liquidity that fueled the rise is drying up. Add that to Land Registry data that signals a clear shift from high property growth, albeit not yet terminal yet. That is why people will pile from property AND equities to more stable investments. Don’t take my word for it, just look how property stocks have gone down since Christmas and look how bond yields have changed. That was the signal of a new phase of the economic cycle. The thing is, that, as interest rates go up, you get a slightly higher rate on your bank and a slightly lower yield on your buy to let. The two diverge at twice that speed because they are acting in unison creating a gap that will undermine property until property has fell to a price that can be supported by first time buyers or rental yeilds that exceed bank accounts. Anyway, I don’t need to pursuade you, you just need to watch it happen in the coming months, yrs.

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  • First time buyers are pretty much dead now due to BTLers.

    They are at very low percentages.

    It will be interesting to see how this pans out but I suspect a recovery of the stock markets by Wednesday.

    However, I do hope I am wrong and you guys are right.

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  • @david20040_0

    “… I suspect a recovery of the stock markets by Wednesday.”

    Who cares? The point is that some home ‘owners’ have borrowed to the hilt (and then some).

    Sooner or later, the ponzi game has to finish.

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  • There have been many false dawns but each one just makes the inevitable more likely.

    What ever happens in the next few days/weeks with regards to this credit crunch and market volatility. Just look at the chart on the main page of this site and you can see it’s inevitable and overdue.

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  • What we are currently seeing is the tip of the iceberg of financial incompetence. The US subprime is visible although not yet quantifiable which will keep the markets nervous. The reall worry should be where the next billions are lost. The money men (advisors) have invented a myriad of schemes over the last 10 years to churn the money in. What will the next scheme be that is brought to light. The sub prime can be contained what cannot be are the consequences.

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  • Blindleadtheblind says:

    Get something right. Central banks do not inject cash, they inject liquidity into the system but unless the favoured banks receiveing this can generate loans to put this liquidity into the financial system then it is of no use at all. Even if the loans can be found its a short term fix, as the root cause of the problem was loans not being repaid in the first instance. The problem is widespread in the markets and therefore the banks are throwing water on the fire without actually knowing where the fire is….all they can see is smoke.

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  • I’ll just point out, I would be very surprised if the stock market doesn’t recover quickly.

    The debt market however will not recover quickly.

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  • At the moment everyone is wondering how big this problem really is and whether it will blow over OR is this the start of a big decline. Also
    different schools of thought out there on the future of the economy/housing market have fell into two broad groups of ‘slowdown’ or ‘crash’.

    Well while people in the past have been speculating about what will happen in the future I really feel that we have now arrived at that future point in time and that we are now at a crossroads. IMHO what comes to light in the next couple of weeks will tell us exactly what is going to happen to the economy/housing market ie we are at CRUNCH TIME and whatever was destined to happen will start to play out now!!

    Nobody knows exactly what will happen, but my prediction is that the credit crunch will be the start of the major problems and in the longer run inflation will be a killer.

    Interested to know other peoples thoughts on this.

    Andy

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  • planning4acrash says:

    I reckon I know what will happen. Prices should down to 3.5x the average family income. Given that the average family earns about 32k, we will see prices at 112k within 5yrs, with the majority of the fall in a two year period after the peak of interest rates. The last time prices were that “low” was as far back as 1992, (A WHOLE FIVE YEARS AGO). In reality prices are likely to undershoot to between 80 and 90k, still putting prices at 2.5x the average salary. This is on the assumption that BTL is the main sector slammed by the crash, and that FTB take over as the primary part of the house market.

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  • planning4acrash says:

    I mean to say, 2002, not 1992, for the last time prices were at 112k!!

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  • It is an interesting state of affairs and as for david20040_0 and false dawns…

    So many factors point to the unaffordability of housing. The FTBs cannot afford to buy and those who have bought regardless are probably on fix-term mortages that will expire any time from now onwards. I believe that I speak from some personal experience. A year and a bit ago I was looking to buy a place that I could just about afford if I took a very long-term view and had a lodger. I decided to apply for a 5 year fixed term mortgage at a seemingly not very attractive 5.15% or so. I was foolish enough to listen to an IFA who is about as independent as an estate agent IMHO who was very pursuasive that interest rates were unlikely to rise in the forseeable future and house prices were on the up. If my purchase had gone through I would have been on a mortgage that would have stung coming out of the fixed term, stung by at least £100 per month repayment. I would be worrying right now but I would probably be okay only because I am in a reasonably well paid profession. As it happens, I did not buy and am very grateful that I did not despite the money lost on surveys and mortgage fees.

    Then there are the banks who seem to be over-stretched. Lending money to people who never had a chance of paying it back over the long term. Anyone could see this as inevitable. And now people are defaulting. The problem started in America but it has to spread everywhere as surely the banks need to try and get some of their money back. I should also imagine they will be less tolerant of people in arrears thus I would expect more repossessions in the future.

    Then what about the BTLs who are stretched to the limit as it is? They need higher rents to pay the mortgage but if they put the rents up they are more likely to have an empty property for longer. Again I see this first hand. I am leaving a flat being rented for £650 a month and in my area that is an okay price. Then the flat below us is on the market for £825 a month. In a month and a half it has had only a handful of viewings and it has been empty for a couple of weeks now, whereas our flat new people are moving in two days after we leave. BTLs are going to struggle. The early BTLs either keep their properties for a steady pension income or they sell up to cash in on their gains. The more recent BTLs are absolutely stuffed, unless they can afford to underwrite their investment in order to try and ensure a steady rental income come time for their pension – but then there is never any guarantee for that income.

    Am I making any sense to anyone? I can see some of this stuff happening first hand and having sold up my own flat some 4 years ago for a 65% profit under the conviction even at that time that prices were ridiculously high (I still firmly believe I sold my flat for more money than it was worth), I am now seeing before my eyes the beginning of the end of my wait to finally be able to buy my own home. Hopefully it will be in time for my son to get some enjoyment out of it but I cannot help feeling that it will be nearly 2 years before house prices do drop to a sensible level.

    Would be very interested to hear what other thoughts and experiences are on this very interesting discussion.

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  • Why bother with the charade of having proper jobs for people doing proper work and earning money for the country …. and other people (financiers) that the government will ensure receive astonomical sums of money ? Starting from now, we should all find some poor little financier and write cheques directly to him every month — cut out the REDISTRIBUTOR we know as the government. Anyone know what the opposite of Robin Hood is ?

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