Friday, Oct 13, 2006

BTLs smugness levels will go thru the roof!

Telegraph: England faces population boom

England's population will rise by more than six million within 25 years, official figures predicted yesterday.
Every region will see an increase. By 2029, the Office for National Statistics predicts there will be 56.4 million people in England, confirming it as one of the world's most crowded nations.

England's population passed the 50 million mark in 2004 and now makes up about 83 per cent of the British total of more than 60 million.

Posted by tyrellcorporation @ 08:26 AM (558 views)
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1. the bald man said...

"The biggest factor will be immigartion". Who will come here when Gordans economic miracle has bombed out under a mountain of debt and inflation ?

Friday, October 13, 2006 08:40AM Report Comment

2. inbreda said...

My thoughts exactly Baldman. I think they've just looked at what happened in 2004 and said that if it carrys on like it did then, then in 25 years time the population will be X. Hardly an intellectual piece is it?

And if the jobs dry up, or the pound is revalued (which will be required if we don't tackle inflation) then the migrants will stop coming. After all, they're hardly seeking a safe place with a wonderful climate.

Friday, October 13, 2006 09:36AM Report Comment

3. sovietuk said...

Never have the people in this country been 'sold out' by such a shameful episode in British History as the one under this shoddy Labour Government. To force such demographic changes on the people without their consent is a disgraceful abuse of democracy. Labour will not be happy until they have trashed this nation completely.

Friday, October 13, 2006 09:36AM Report Comment

4. george monsoon said...

Sovietuk - Thats becouase Britain isn't a democracy. Something that the British public are fooled into thinking. Britain has been bordering on autocratic for some time. We ARE a nanny state. We soak up the new legislation on drinking, smoking, driving, immigration etc.. because it is the "British way" This gives us something to moan about, which ironically is exactly what I am doing now.

It is a fairly well known fact that the majority of the voting public are very easily influenced by advertising. Psychologists use the same tacticts to plug government ideas on daytime tv, promoting a change in public opinion, in order to make the passage of a new legislation smoother.

I am certain that the same tools are employed to sway public opinion with the housing market.

Friday, October 13, 2006 10:02AM Report Comment

5. tyrellcorporation said...

The irony being that unrestricted inward migration ultimately reduces the incomes of people who traditionally vote Labour.

Friday, October 13, 2006 10:04AM Report Comment

6. the bald man said...

George... everything nowadays is spin. Statistics can not be trusted. All politicains appear the same. No one bothers to vote because the system means the party with the least votes win.

The housing market is a great example of spin. Price rises are good. Borrow as much as you want against the value. It does not matter as long as you keep Gordans miricale going.

Friday, October 13, 2006 10:19AM Report Comment

7. Haggerston said...

Following on from tyrellcorporation, this then unfortunately pushes people into the hands of the far right.

Friday, October 13, 2006 10:19AM Report Comment

8. sovietuk said...

tyrell - agreed, reduce their incomes with a cheap pool of labour, make their houses unaffordable, tax them to the hilt with stealth taxes, destroy pensions, increase the cost of further education, build casinos so the rest is gambled away and then tell them things have never been better.

Friday, October 13, 2006 10:24AM Report Comment

9. uncle chris said...

This is a nightmare scenario that can only lead to a Balkans situation developing in this country. Why can't the government recognise the dangers of unrestricted immigration. Are they really so intent on removing any notion of nationhood, because that's the only thing that stops us turning on each other. Perhaps it really is time to leave the country that I love rather than watch it fall apart under the pressure of trying to compete in the global market. Either that or perhaps it's time to take a more radical stand against immigration to get the message across to an ignorant establishment. If there are as many people as angry as me about all this then I see the BNP gaining a significant foothold in the coming years.

Friday, October 13, 2006 10:37AM Report Comment

10. the bald man said...

soviet uk...thats the miracle economy. You forgot 24 hour binge drinking, speed cameras every 500 yards (both good revenue raisers), a vast cvil service with no improvement in services, spies in dustbins, OTT security at airports, unwinnable overseas military expeditions based on incorrect information.

Friday, October 13, 2006 10:43AM Report Comment

11. Tangara said...

It seems we are in 1928...

Friday, October 13, 2006 11:33AM Report Comment

12. waitingfor hpc said...

i agree with all these comments above i have felt for some time that the country has had it in the long term.

As for the immigrants well - too many - too much. I am fed up with PL & SK number plates on the M25, and polish newspapers in Reading, job adverts in polish ... the list goes on. Over 50% of schools in London with English as a second langauge.

I have felt this is creating right wing views and dividing the population - and it has. All the white english i meet have had enough and would vote BNP or for a party that would sort immigration - but we had a chnace to vote the Tories in to do this before it went too far and did not. Now even I have looked at the BNP - I want my country back!!!! Or I will end up leaving to look for a place where I can be happy.

As for the economy god only knows what will happen ... full of lies and spin. I have a lot of money in the bank but will not put a penny in the housing market. I am adjusting my finances to pay as little tax as possible 53% is too high!!!! ANd he wants more ! My accountants tell me money is now leaving the UK - as tax is too high - and now I have read that companies will not set up in UK due to tax and legislation. Corporation tax in Ireland is 12.5% , in the UK 30% - where would you set up a company?

Right rant over - that was your fault - i try to forget all the problems and get on with running my company...

Friday, October 13, 2006 11:36AM Report Comment

13. The Capitalist said...

Sell everything you own buy some gold, keep some cash and move to Argentina - a country rich in commodities, great people, cheap land - go south young men!

Friday, October 13, 2006 12:06PM Report Comment

14. inbreda said...

I'm sorry but uncle chris and waitingforhpc are going to have to explain themselves a bit better.

Why is immigration so bad?

The fact that you THINK it is bad is probably just because you have been easily manipulated by the media. Give some reasoned logic please.

Friday, October 13, 2006 12:22PM Report Comment

15. Mininidge said...

Come and visit South Harrow or Greenford you may get a taste of what uncle chris and waitingforhpc are on about. I have been thinking of leaving this country who's government seems to despise English males, for a long time. Fed up with paying V. large taxes and getting nothing in return appart from spin, lies.

Friday, October 13, 2006 01:04PM Report Comment

16. tyrellcorporation said...

Inbreda... I think the point is generally being made the unlimited immigration in such a short space of time is bad as it overwhelms infrastructure and potentially undermines social cohesion. If you don't agree with that then we fundamentally disagree, period. Also, to say that someone is easily manipulated by the media is a very arrogant comment as it implies these blog members have no unique thought and any unpalatable (to you) viewpoints are somehow just a simple re-gurgitation of sensational newspaper headlines. It is just as easy for me to say that you have been too easily manipulated by the left leaning media who bang the diversity and immigration drum 'til our ears bleed!

Please enlighten us as to why unlimited immigration (something that happens in no other country) is so great for the UK?

I personally do not see the economic benefit. A friend of mine has in the last 4 months started going out with a Polish woman. She works for DEFRA in admin and earns about 15k (a job that could easily be done by a British worker). She presumably pays about 5k tax. She has just moved her children over and enrolled them at the local school and with the doctor. Each child costs about 6k a year to educate. I don't know the impact on costs for the NHS. Immediately the tax payer is out of pocket by about a factor of 2. This does not even begin to address other costs such as policing, pensions, infrastructure, etc, etc.

She's a lovely woman but I sincerely believe the impact of situations like this, magnified across all regions in Britain, will severely affect taxation levels. I think the economic arguments have been spun to death by Labour and the BBC. When peoples council tax bills begin to spiral (as they inevitably will) we'll have more to worry about than simple economics.

Back to my original post, I think the BTL market is being kept sizzling by stories such as these...

Friday, October 13, 2006 01:09PM Report Comment

17. indiablue19 said...

The people who fill this situations such as Tyrellcorporation is suggesting share flats here, three or four couples to a flat. Splitting costs this many ways makes 15,000 a year a decent wage -- multiplied by six or eight adults. So immigrants in this part of the world are having a nice time and living pretty well and frequenting restaurants I sure can't afford anymore. This also allows landlords to keep pushing rental prices up and up. I have been told that hundreds of thousands of people in this City are now Spanish and Polish. They are lovely people, bring great cultural influences with them and a real sense of cosmopolitan atmosphere for Edinburgh. On the other hand, we can't afford to live here as a result, in what is probably unexpensive in relation to London and the southeast, because we have only two incomes in our household,and will most likely have to move to someplace on the Continent that Europeans have abandoned to come to the cities here. Quite ironic. But this is what I mean in saying before that we will all bend to global issues, or break in half. Not sure our family can swim upstream on this, but will just have to figure how to cope.

Friday, October 13, 2006 01:28PM Report Comment

18. sovietuk said...

There is an easy solution to the immigration probelm...................................................................

Friday, October 13, 2006 02:13PM Report Comment

19. C'mon Correction said...

Immigration isn't bad, but we need to control and monitor it very carefully. Nu Labour and the left-wing media shouted down the Conservatives at the last election and all but called them racist. This is a very common response that is rammed down your throat whenever you even slightly question the issue.

I've lost interest in politics in this country long ago (so I'm not a true blue) but thought the Tories at least were raising questions and having a little foresight about potential problems ahead. Because of the denial that immigration COULD/POSSIBLY/MAYBE cause problems for both society and the economy long-term, I fear we won't debate measures/solutions if it is agreed there are problems, until it's too late.

Friday, October 13, 2006 02:14PM Report Comment

20. george monsoon said...

tyrellcorporation - I agree with most of what you are saying, however it is a fact that we are all easily influenced by the media, some more than others. Given the blog content, it is obvious that the majority of people visiting this site have some realisation that the media do manipulate information.

Friday, October 13, 2006 02:15PM Report Comment

21. holding out said...

Irrespective of whether immigration is beneficial or otherwise the number involved have to live somewhere and it fuels the BTL brigade.

However it's probably only temporary when there is a downturn in UK employment and when countries like Germany are forced (or choose) to open their markets to Eastern europe as they will have to then I would suspect a good number will move there as it's closer to home and they can earn more. I'm led to believe they actually make things.

Friday, October 13, 2006 02:17PM Report Comment

22. uncle chris said...

Inbreda .... with a first class honours degree and PhD, please credit me with some degree of intelligence to have rationally thought these issues through. I have friends and colleagues around the world of many nationalities, races and colour - so please do not try to pin the racist card on me. I don't object to some managed immigration (say 40,000-50,000 professional migrants) but the scales we have seen are downright dangerous. Finally, I am not led by the media but by experience. In a nutshell -

(1) Mass immigration keeps wages for the rest of us low.
(2) House prices (as we know) are ridiculous, and don't tell me 1.5 million immigrants have no impact on prices.
(3) School teachers (my best man is one) are having to spend valuable teaching immigrants how to speak English and Welsh, rather than spending time with our own children
(4) Immigration is destroying communities - I walked 400 yards through my local town and didn't hear a word of Welsh or English spoken, but heard at least 5 other languages.
(5) Doctors (my wife is one) are having to spend much longer trying to figure out what's wrong with immigrant admissions who cannot speak the language - to the detriment of locals.
(6) Immigration is generating genuine hatred and despair in our communities - which in time will seriously affect social cohesion.
(7) Foreign prisoners make up 10-20% (not sure of figure) of prison population, and the government is having to spend 35,000 each of our money to house them.
(8) We now have an dangerous enemy within, with 150,000 people expressing sympathy with the London bombers.

I could go on, but I've probably said enough. I remember a time when strange faces in our communities were thought of as an oddity, but broadly welcomed with intrigue. Now they are treated with contempt, solely because there has been too much immigration - rightly or wrongly, I can see why people feel this way.

I just want my country back.

Friday, October 13, 2006 02:50PM Report Comment

23. sold 2 rent 1 said...

Personally I think the government got the idea of immigration right, but could have handled it a bit better

I had 2 quotes to get my house painted
UK guys - 4,000
Polish guys 1,000 + free bottle of Vodka (no joke)

Today is a big day for me.
Within minutes of each other, my wife and I accepted 2 offers on our respective houses in UK and Ireland
Ireland property: bought 1990, 60K EUR, sold 381K EUR
UK property: bought 1994, 57K, sold 225K

The Ireland property had a range of valuations of 390-420
We dropped the price to the 3% stamp duty threshold to get the sale. The market has turned here

The UK property got the full asking price within an hour of the first viewer.
I would not be surprised to see this price go up to 250K by next summer

All I need to do now is find somewhere to rent (oh! and learn how to change a nappy)

Friday, October 13, 2006 02:51PM Report Comment

24. monty said...

Inbreda, I believe that the focus of the article and discussion here is on UNLIMITED migration and not migration per se.

As anyone who has tried to immigrate to the UK from outside the EU will attest to, this country has a tried and tested system of controlled immigration. The lack on control exists on two fronts - asylum seekers and immigrants from within the EU. (As an aside, I've often wondered what on earth an "illegal asylum seeker" is. Surely, you're either an asylum seeker or you're not, in which case you're a bogus asylum seeker. Illegal immigrant, yes. Illegal asylum seeker? Que?)

Controlled immigration is great. For no money down, the UK gets an educated, economically active and tax paying human. Studies done in the US show that the impact of immigration, even at the lower income levels, is no greater than 5% and that there is an obvious net benefit to the economy. (This obviously excludes paying illegals below minimum wage to harvest crops.)

The root cause of the uncontrolled immigration obviously lies with the EU and how we implement Brussels law. In the beginning, when it was a more exclusive club, the disparities between the member countries' economies were a damn sight smaller than they are now. How many Germans flooded over here to take advantage of the welfare state? :-) Larger club, larger economic disparities mean tighter controls are necessary.

Hmmm, I wonder what the Spanish view on unlimited immigration and foreign land ownership is? ;-)

Friday, October 13, 2006 02:52PM Report Comment

25. Davidhpc said...

all sounds like a bit of a mad pyramid selling scheme to me.

Friday, October 13, 2006 03:43PM Report Comment

26. Davidhpc said...

all sounds like a bit of a mad pyramid selling scheme to me.

Friday, October 13, 2006 03:45PM Report Comment

27. harold said...

Part of the problem lies in the unrealistic value of the to other currencies. While the remains artificially high, the incentive to come here will remain - particularly for people from East Europe who usually send money home to relatives. Despite the claims of the Daily Mail, I'm not entirely sure that people are 'flocking' here for the NHS and our wonderful education system.

Well-done guys for not allowing overt racism to degenerate this sensitive topic. There is a genuine debate to be had here - but economic issues, particularly to do with our currency's value, lies at its cause and solution.

Friday, October 13, 2006 05:11PM Report Comment

28. Retiredbanker said...

Not a good time to be expanding our population with world shortages of food, oil, and other commodities
just over the horizon. Environmentalists are saying that it will be necessary for many countries to be
reducing their populations in line with available resources.
But as past experience has shown, you can always rely upon a socialist government to make a bad
situation worse, and then try to make a virtue of their incompetence.
Mass migration due to overpopulation, food scarcity, environmental degradation, etc. (no prizes for
spotting the connection), was predicted many years ago, and controlling this is going to become
a matter of survival for the countries facing the inward flood of humanity.
I predict that "the gloves will be off" within the near future.

The son of a friend of mine overstayed the duration of his Australian work permit, and he was quickly
located by the authorites, and put on a plane leaving that country.

I fail to see why a country cannot keep control of its borders. If an increase in population is really
required, then bring in measures to increase the birthrate of the people already living there. It will be
the cohesive societies that will be best placed to survive in an uncertain future.

Friday, October 13, 2006 05:38PM Report Comment

29. Maggot said...

yeah and by 2029 we will have had another 1-2 house prices crashes.

Friday, October 13, 2006 06:07PM Report Comment

30. inbreda said...

Uncle Chris.

I don't recall calling you a racist - that must be the voices in your head again. I too have a degree and PhD. I don't recall calling you stupid, I simply asked for some rational debate rather than the Daily Express "RUNAWAY THE TERRORISTS ARE FLOODING IN TO RAPE OUR WOMEN AND RUIN THE NHS" reactionary comments.

You said:

(1) Mass immigration keeps wages for the rest of us low.
(which could surely be a trigger for HPC? If people can't afford their mortgages? BTLs surely can't charge more than someone earns?)
(2) House prices (as we know) are ridiculous, and don't tell me 1.5 million immigrants have no impact on prices.
(I live in a place where space is highly restricted and the population has doubled. Of course net immigration has an effect, but I think the effect of 1.5million people, some temporary residents, is overstated in a country the size of the UK. I also think it would be countered somewhat by the thousands of brits using their strong pound to buy abroad.)
(3) School teachers (my best man is one) are having to spend valuable teaching immigrants how to speak English and Welsh, rather than spending time with our own children
(Maybe your children would be well placed to learn a foreign language. If the teacher is a teacher what's the problem with teaching?)
(4) Immigration is destroying communities - I walked 400 yards through my local town and didn't hear a word of Welsh or English spoken, but heard at least 5 other languages.
(I'm sorry - not sure I understand - do you live in Wales or England? If you're trying to tell me that 2 languages are acceptable but several others aren't then you really are stupid. Why should English be permitted in Wales? If UK is part of the EU, then what is wrong with speaking EU languages? Besides there are numerous places abroad that are overrun with Brits who refuse to speak the local language - where's the difference? And does it really matter what language someone speaks? Open your mind man. If you got run over by a car and a qualified latvian doctor ran over to help you, would you really tell him to leave because he's not English enough for you?)
(5) Doctors (my wife is one) are having to spend much longer trying to figure out what's wrong with immigrant admissions who cannot speak the language - to the detriment of locals.
(6) Immigration is generating genuine hatred and despair in our communities - which in time will seriously affect social cohesion.
(No, I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you here. Immigration is not generating genuine hatred - YOU are. And I do wish you would stop it or go and live in another country. It's so unnecessary.)
(7) Foreign prisoners make up 10-20% (not sure of figure) of prison population, and the government is having to spend 35,000 each of our money to house them.
(Never heard this figure quoted before. Fancy finding some evidence to back it up with?)
(8) We now have an dangerous enemy within, with 150,000 people expressing sympathy with the London bombers.
(So you're one of these people that thinks that 655,000 Iraqi lives are worth less than, what, 52 Londoners? - or do you prefer to think of it as 21 Londoners - the others being too black/brown/ or in some other way too foreign for you?)

It is not your country any more than it is your city your street or your world. Didn't your mummy teach you to share? Maybe you are an only child? that might explain it.

I'm sorry but I asked for rational debate and you have regurgitated a pile of racist nonsense despite claiming not to be racist. I'm sorry, but I really think that you are racist.

Friday, October 13, 2006 06:18PM Report Comment

31. tyrellcorporation said...

At least 10% of our prison population are foreign nationals.

I'd ignore the cheap insults if possible UC, that's the recourse of someone whos lost the argument...

Time to move on...

Friday, October 13, 2006 06:53PM Report Comment

32. Thetidewillturn said...


Never before have I heard so many people in this country talking about supporting the BNP both at work , in the pubs, on the streets and now finally here on this site. Labour governments always lead to a rise in Right Wing support but this government has surpassed itself. It has divided this country. In Dagenham almost 100% labour stronghold (47 council seats held out of 48) ...11 of the 12 council seats contested this year went to the BNP ....working class support moving from the left straight through the political spectrum without pausing at the other parties to come out the other side....because immigration as far as wages are concerned has led to the "race to the bottom" -as the local Labour MP put it - even he has seen the light (and perhaps rightly fears for his seat) - this is point 1 of Uncle Chris' argument. Two more years and Dagenham WILL have a BNP council because there the people believe the BNP can win. Not everybody has a PHD Inbreda and can command the wages your education can attract. It is perhaps not surprising that traditional labour voters are turning elsewhere to deal with their grievances. The 2009 elections will be very interesting...I for one will vote BNP certainly at European level that year because there they will win hopefully sending shockwaves through the other parties so they buck their ideas up...elsewhere I will vote for anybody who can replace this mess of a Government who have left us with house prices tottering on the edge of an abyss. Oh and Inbreda, I fully support Uncle Chris and the points he made.....if that makes me a racist in your eyes then I am proud to be racist in your eyes........I think that particular word is having less of a panic/guilty effect on people these days.....bring on 2009.....what an election that will be! Definitely worth staying up that night to watch the results!!!!...I'm filling my flask and cutting up my sandwiches as I type...

Friday, October 13, 2006 08:32PM Report Comment

33. indiablue19 said...

Your idea on coming to a country legally is key I believe. There are approximately 4,000,000 (four million) illegals Mexican nationals in the States that are known of at the moment-- and many more that aren't -- and this number remains on hand after multiple rounds of migrant amnesty because the endless tide has continued unabated for decades. Far from being crop pickers, many of these people own their own businesses, {kiosks in shopping malls, import export businesses, small home businesses, etc} and because they never appear on the government radar screen, they never pay tax even though they are quite well off. Gone are the iconic California grape boycotts and in their place are the United Farm Workers Union. One American administration after another "forgives" the millions of illegal migrants from Mexico and confers citizenship allowing criminals to continue their robbery of the public unabated and encourage still more of the same and the next wave takes their place. Illegal immigration is theft of a country's resources. Last month, a group of Mexican nationals, having hired personal security to protect their mob activity, raised the Mexican flag over the post office in a California town telling the other locals to go back to Europe where they came from. They seem to have forgotten that they themselves were mostly Spanish and took Mexico from the native peoples there.

Qualifying for immigration to the UK was expensive, tedious and incredibly bureaucratic, but I at least have the satisfaction of knowing my children and I got here honestly and proved in advance that we could pay for ourselves and had resources and skills to offer. Unless you are being chased by demons, it is only fair to go through the process.

The problem the UK does have, unlike this border issue with the Mexican government who perpetually can't get their act together, is that the UK is a small place with limited space. It might be nice to think an "open door" is entirely possible, but even a place the size of the US is running out of options when its hospitality is to the point of being abused time and again by those who want everything for nothing.

And the citizenry in the States is becoming increasingly hostile after centuries of "lifting the lamp" for immigrants from the entire globe who although impoverished arrived with dignity and came in through the front door. I think countries where millions of people are unhappy and have a need to escape and go other places by stealth should start looking at the qualities that make the USA or the UK this attractive and get busy reproducing them for their citizens on their own soil.

And the UK should take a strong assessment of how many people it can honestly support, start taxing the foreign super-rich who are living off the common person by means of loopholes in the law; and start regulating immigration, just as we were vetted, before everyone is as unhappy here as in they apparently were in the land they came from.

Friday, October 13, 2006 10:23PM Report Comment

34. Mjchum said...

This is scary, but without question my experience among voters of all ages. Even some of the softest people I know are adamant they and their families will vote for the British National Party. These are people from a transect of society, educationally, financially and socially. I always retort with the same response. It would be better to have the Labour government we have now than the BNP and I can;t stand this government. However, the BNP represent, not the far right wing, not fascism (Bliar's covered that one) but Nazi extremism. Please, do not vote BNP. It would'nt be long before YOUR face dosen't fit. Watch how these thugs behave. It would be mildly amusing if it were not the fact that so many voters seem attracted to their beliefs.

Friday, October 13, 2006 11:07PM Report Comment

35. Northernlad said...

Retired Banker ...well said!

Saturday, October 14, 2006 07:52AM Report Comment

36. inbreda said...

IndiaBlue - surprising comments from you.

What I don't understand here is that you seem to be suggesting that if immigrants arrive through legal means then all is OK.

As I've said before, I live in Guernsey. A tax haven where incredibly wealthy individuals manage to avoid paying their social dues, which you mentioned above, and which incidentally they do perfectly legally. And no, I don't particularly want them here. They make the 'locals' a lower class, as financially the majority of people who have a long family history here simply can't compete.
If there's got to be immigrants, maybe it's better they are poor - at least puts me nearer the top - it's all relative after all. I really don't actually think it matters wheter it's legal, illegal, rich or poor.

The Mexicans you mention above have a point - the average american is not indigenous. I gather the Iraqis are feeling much the same way at the moment. And to be honest, Celts have every right to tell the majority of English to get out of their country. It all depends on how far back you want to go, how many generalisations you wish to make, and how unwelcoming and unfriendly you want to be.

UC - you clearly want your cake and to eat it, so why not turn a blind eye to the immigration and buy a BTL. If you've got a degree and a PhD and your wifes a doctor I'm sure you'll manage it - then you can sit back and watch the immigrants throwing money at you.

There's nothing wrong with the free movement of people. If you are so paranoid of other people, maybe you should just lock youself away in your house and never come out. Or if you're not a celt, go back to where your ancestors came from. Or at least give me some sensible reason why we should collectively disadvantage people for our own selfish gain.

Saturday, October 14, 2006 02:25PM Report Comment

37. harold said...

"Well-done guys for not allowing overt racism to degenerate this sensitive topic."

Thetidewillturn, I guess I'll have to take that comment back. Thank god Dagenham isn't representative of the country - should it ever become so, for example at your glorious upcoming 2009 election when the Blackshirts will march proudly forth, I'll be on the first plane out of here. Oh, and by the way I'm white - I guess you are too. However, unlike you I do have a brain capable of contextualising the problem of immigration into a broader economic framework. You see, what the dimwits in the BNP fail to understand, is that you are never going to stop immigration from poor countries to rich - legal or illegal - while there is a global economic system that concentrates wealth in specific geographic locations, creating massive disparities in foreign exchange. The incentive to come here is just too great.

Imagine for a moment (if such a thing is possible) that you are poor and earn barely enough for you to feed your family. However, after travelling for only half a day to another country you can earn ten times as much money for the same work, with the result that you can not only feed your family properly, but also save enough to buy a nice flat for you all to live in. Tempted? I think so. All you have to do is put up with the bad weather and possible racist attacks from the local bigots who, although unwilling to get up at 5am and clean government offices, whinge incessantly that you are stealing their jobs. Still tempted? I'm sure you would be.

You are like a fool who complains about the symptom of an illness, without looking to its cause - in this case the cause is economic. Therefore, stop moaning about individuals less fortunate than your sorry self and start arguing for a realistic value for the pound - this will solve your problem, not your pathetic bitterness.

Saturday, October 14, 2006 03:32PM Report Comment

38. Thetidewillturn said...

Harold....There you the BNP and you are a fascist...BNP=blackshirt...oohh the insults hurt so much please stop I can take no more....I give in I am soooo ashamed I'll vote labour...come off it.....the supporters of the BNP (and almost 1 million voted for them at the last European elections) are mainly working class indigenous people (although I see the head of the Sikhs in the UK gave a talk on their website recently warning about massive immigration) who are watching their wages/income fall because of an unprecedented level of immigration never before seen. Immigration out of control hurts the working class (see my earlier comments about the "race to the bottom" as far as wages are concerned, (and those were comments last month from a LABOUR MP - is he racist too?) and helps the middle class who get their houses painted at a lower price (see earlier comment from another posting). You cannot then blame the working class for turning their backs on the traditional parties and seeking a solution elsewhere. It is a shame you have then to resort to personal abuse to make your point...kind of makes me think your arguments may be flawed. Try making an argument without personal abuse and I may try to understand your position.

Saturday, October 14, 2006 04:10PM Report Comment

39. indiablue19 said...

You need to just add the two pieces together that I was suggesting. First, that all come in by the established legal means of the government because the days of raiding the shores of someplace are best overwith. As you say we can all go back however many eons we please to throw somebody else out. But the second piece is equally vital, and that is that governments, such as here in the UK need to come to some method of dealing with, not so much "immigration" as this planetary "migration" that is happening. It might be nice to think it can all simply be random. But, as you point out there are consequences and there has to be some equation for what a country can handle and how it will do it without tipping the balance for those already there into chaos.

Saturday, October 14, 2006 04:42PM Report Comment

40. uncle chris said...

Inbreda, you asked for a rational debate and then descended into the typical PC mode of accusations, insults and playing the race card. As has been commented on, that is the usual tactic of someone who has lost the debate. I'm afraid people like you are the reason we can never have a rational debate on immigration in this country. If you cannot pick up on the rumblings of discontent in this country (believe me I'm not the only one), then it is obvious you are not part of a typical UK community. Regarding your points (item 30), if you return to your original comment ("The fact that you THINK it is bad is probably just because you have been easily manipulated by the media."), there is a clear suggestion that I didn't have the intellect to come to my own conclusions and it was to that I responded - I thought in a fairly logical and rational way (as requested). Regarding BTL, yes, we could afford to buy, but like others here we are sitting it out in rented whilst the madness unfolds. I won't go into detail on your other points because it appears we fundamentally disagree on this issue and probably always will.

Saturday, October 14, 2006 05:04PM Report Comment

41. indiablue19 said...

Dear All....
The other thing I hope we fundamentally CAN agree on is the limitation of trying to address something this complex in six sentences a piece on the www. I know in past exchanges I have sometimes felt extremely misinterpreted for all sorts of reasons. The first is -- the absolute lack of a personal connection, no such signals as facial expression, tone of the voice, body language or any of the others marvels that make human communication what it is. Another problem is the stiltedness of having to write what I could often better say. An an additional one, dearth of time and space on the page to fit in all the nuance, which is often the most important part. One thing I am convinced of, there may be frustration at times, and even down right disagreement on this page. But I am always heartened by the amount of thought people put in, how often they are willing to hear the other point of view and reconsider, and how much general consideration is given here to what may be the plight of many and suggestions how to change that. Even for those who have attacked me at various times I have great respect. It isn't easy to stick your neck out on a universally available blog that is watched by so many and take your shots. I don't believe we have any misanthropes contributing here, no racists, no miscreants. Only a group of citizens doing their honest best to find answers and sometimes misstating their case, or presenting something a bit half baked.

Saturday, October 14, 2006 05:33PM Report Comment

42. uncle chris said...

IndiaBlue ... you must be a diplomat :-)

Saturday, October 14, 2006 06:06PM Report Comment

43. inbreda said...

Uncle Chris - I think you're missing the point. I think you have expressed some racist views. I am NOT closing the discussion down or randomly throwing around insults - I'm being serious. And yes, I'm aware that your alter ego says that it "is the usual tactic of someone who has lost the debate", but I don't think it is. If you say something racist, and I pick up on it, how does that mean I have lost the debate?

Answer me this. Would your doctor wife be happier unemployed because equally qualified and harder working foreign doctors can do her job, or 'putting up' with some ill underpaid 'labourer' immigrants that don't speak great English? Or perhaps the other option of no immigration at all?

I am fully aware of the rumblings of discontent in the country, but I don't think that immigration is the only or even primary source of this discontent. If anything I think it is the diversion the government and rags such as the DE would rather we focussed upon, rather than looking in more detail at the incredible mistakes that the present labour tossers have made. Look at it this way - how much has the Iraq war (the one that seems to have been based on lies, cover-ups, whitewashes and disinformation throughout) cost the British public? Probably more than all of the immigrants have been payed in the last few years. My point is that from a purely financial opint of view, it would make more sense to insist that Blair is hanged by his testicles than it does to point the finger at immigrants.

I just find pointing the finger at immigrants (although I am aware that mass immigration WILL have a socio economic impact) the easy and selfish way out. Maybe I am just over empathetic, but I can't honestly say that I would rather be wealthier by denying other human beings the same opportunities that I have. Like India says, while there are such disparities in wealth it will happen. I honestly beleive there is a better - albeit harder - conclusion to arrive at rather than the reactionary finger pointing best left to the rags. It seems to be the perfect government diversionary tactic and avoids talking about the real issues.

Harold makes some good points - too many people simply want to work less and get payed more than everyone else based on nothing more than their birthplace. Normally the mentality of the BTL investor.

Saturday, October 14, 2006 06:17PM Report Comment

44. sovietuk said...

Without pointing the figure some people here would be advised to go to their local book store and in particular to the history section (Germany 1918 - 1945). They should examine the background reasons why the Nazis came to power in the early thities. It was because of the abuse being meated out to the average German by way of bad economic conditions and the stripping of their national identity. I'm sorry but if a large section of the population in a nation is being abused then don't expect that there will be no consequences.

Saturday, October 14, 2006 06:24PM Report Comment

45. holding out said...

I'm with retired banker on this one.

For me the main problem with mass immigration into the UK is that we are already densely populated (particularly England). I'm sure we could not (if we tried) be self sufficient. It is not a sustainable position to have so many people living in such a small area.

It obviously does affect house prices - unless we build on more of what is left of the countryside. Some people say - only 10% is built on - That is the entire UK In any case if you happen to be on a virgin grass verge next to the M1 that to me is still blighted.

Some people say we need to import younger people because we're all getting too old. What happens when they get old ?

Saturday, October 14, 2006 07:34PM Report Comment

46. harold said...

sovietuk, unfortunately a bookshop is the last place you will find honest information about the Nazi's ascent, that is unless you know of any underground bookshops. And equating the Weimar Republic with UK2000 is laughable: Germany in the 1920s had hyperinflation (something the US is about to flirt with), but not mass immigration - the UK in 2000 does not (yet) have hyperinflation, but does have mass immigration. Trying to conflate the two situations is usually the trick of those who really want to say, "watch out, or we'll have a bloody good genocide".

Saturday, October 14, 2006 07:58PM Report Comment

47. bidin'matime said...

Coming into this debate a little late, but having read it all, for the record, I thought Inbreda's post No.30 was a little OTT. To point out that others may be driven to racism is not to be racist ones self. It's the government's refusal to address the issue, for fear of appearing racist, that has added to the problems.

Saturday, October 14, 2006 09:01PM Report Comment

48. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.


49. Mjchum said...

Inbreda . . .

(Item 40 - Would your doctor wife be happier unemployed because equally qualified and harder working doctors can do her job) response to Harold.

Why is it automatically assumed that migrant workers are harder working? This is not the case, certainly in construction/land regen. I've had both English and migrant labour work on my projects and here's the thing. 1. The migrant workers were paid more! 2. They became very lazy after about a month! Many sites won't employ them now, because they soon become lazy/greedy and often very belligerant. This is just my experience. My wife and child are foreign by the way and we can't even get family visitor visa's!

Saturday, October 14, 2006 09:14PM Report Comment

50. uncle chris said...

Inbreda ... for the record, I wholly agree with you that we should never have gone into Iraq and that B'liar should be fully investigated to establish whether (as many believe) he and his associates are responsible for war crimes. I cannot fault the armed forces who have done their best under difficult circumstances. It is certain that B'liar's lies played a major part in the deaths of over 600,000 Iraqis, and however he squirms and evades, that will always be his legacy. Also for the record, my wife works darn hard, she has just worked 26 days on the trot, which has included a 96 hour week of nights - working hours directive my foot. And yes, the NHS would not cope without overseas medical staff, but my mrs would take issue with you that they work harder than UK trained staff.

May I reiterate that my argument is against mass immigration (check my previous posts) not controlled immigration, which yes, is of benefit to the country. It is vital to get this discussion out into the open without the heated comments on both sides, and for governments to seriously tackle the problem. By labelling anyone who raises the issue as a racist, there is a danger that the anger and frustration they feel is driven beneath the surface where it festers and develops into outright hatred. One last point, whilst you believe it's the right of everyone to try and better themselves (and I can't argue with that), please reflect on the counter-argument that it is equally the right of people to defend and protect their way of life.

Sunday, October 15, 2006 09:58AM Report Comment

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