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Brown Accused Of Being Morally Corrupt By Bishops


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Brown is a national disgrace. The fact that he still has a job, and a platform for his idiotic rantings says everything about the state of modern politics.

In response to the Bishops, Liam Byrne said:

We are determined not to walk on by.

I think this tells you everything you need to know about Labour.

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I thought the Church of England was supposed to keep out of politics

I agree, they should stick to their primary function which is to dictate what people should do with their genitals- anyone would think they actualy cared about poverty, cruelty ect ect, when in reality the only thing they really get excited about is sex- it's the only time you see real passion amongst christians, when they are trying to decide who should be f*cking who.

To understand the really important issues of any relegion look at it's taboo's- that which is taboo is that which is really holy in their eyes- and for the christians the only really important issue is sex- that's what they fight about and thats what they care about, despite the lipservice they pay to starving children ect ect.

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I am an atheist. Stopped going to church at the age of 7 and felt like a fraud when I had to read the Psalms at school. Despite all that, I respect the Church and those who hold faith in religion. This thread is one of the most absurd I have seen on HPC and misses a VERY important point. The Archbishops are theologians, well read, well informed and probably very smart. The fact they have said that Gordon Brown is immoral has huge significance for millions who look to the church for guidance, while we may have all chosen to follow an atheist or agnostic faith there is no doubt that this announcement is the end of GBs flavor of Labor politics.

Those who have posted here over the past three years know very well that Britain has rotted under this Labor government ..... I include Blairs reign in that statement. In reality it was not solely the fault of nuLab - something ugly has happened over the past two decade which may well be irreversible in our lifetimes: here is what I mean:

proud to be Brits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH3bP5pQwH8

Hooligans

Britain has become a paradox, a place a exceptional brilliance on one hand and the homeplace of human filth on the other. Any new start should begin by stamping out the thug element and by ensuring they are not allowed to travel overseas: New Labor garbage like Prescot and Mandelson should be expunged and replaced with politicians who represent the best and not worst: and people who add real value should be rewarded before those who seek to control it.

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The Rt Rev Nigel McCulloch, the Bishop of Manchester, criticised Labour for encouraging people to get further into debt.

"The Government has acted scandalously. This is not just an economic issue, but a moral one. It's about what we value," he said.

"The Government believes that money can answer all of the problems and has encouraged greed and a love of money that the Bible says is the root of all evil.

"It's morally corrupt because it encourages people to get into a lifestyle of believing they can always get what they want."

The Rt Rev Stephen Lowe, the Bishop of Hulme, said: "The Government isn't telling people who are already deep in debt to stop overextending themselves, but instead is urging us to spend more. That is morally suspect and morally feeble.

"It is unfair and irresponsible of the Government to put pressure on the public to spend in order to revive the economy."

He suggested they were cynically attempting to improve the economy in time for the next general election.

"They are trying to take the credit for this, but are playing with people's livelihoods in the process."

I take my hat off to these Bishops for TELLING THE TRUTH -- something we NEVER EVER seem to hear now in ANY of the mainstream media - and from our politicians....

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bpw,

Very similar to you. In a choice between being God fearing and police state fearing I'd choose the former. I'd also choose the Church's moral compass over any political party's if push came to shove.

One area where church involvement still excels is at primary school educational level where church schools are heavily represented and generally perform a far more professional and productive capacity than the the more politicised secondary level educational system.

I think in this case they have seen right through Brownhole and his cronyism based economics with clarity and have had the guts to speak out.

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bpw,

Very similar to you. In a choice between being God fearing and police state fearing I'd choose the former. I'd also choose the Church's moral compass over any political party's if push came to shove.

One area where church involvement still excels is at primary school educational level where church schools are heavily represented and generally perform a far more professional and productive capacity than the the more politicised secondary level educational system.

I think in this case they have seen right through Brownhole and his cronyism based economics with clarity and have had the guts to speak out.

Yep. Agreed.

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Any Brown (government) bashing is good. If everyone did it things would change sooner.

I remember reading about how the Irish joined the French to fight against the English in the Napoleonic wars, just because they hated the English more than they hated the French, who they also hated. We need unity. If Brown thinks this is Dunkirk, we need to commit the Luftwaffe fully, not hold back like that big girls blouse Hitler did.

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The problem with atheists is that they try so hard to convince themselves and others that God or the supernatural doesn't exist that it almost becomes a, dare I say it, belief system. Logic and reason itself is not enough to convince me - give me evidence.

Deism isn't such a bad choice:

"The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation."

Edited by drhewitt
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The problem with atheists is that they try so hard to convince themselves and others that God or the supernatural doesn't exist that it almost becomes a, dare I say it, belief system. Logic and reason itself is not enough to convince me - give me evidence.

Deism isn't such a bad choice:

=======================================================================

I don't think atheists have to try very hard to convince themselves that God doesn't exist. It's more that they find it difficult to believe that God does exist. I would have thought that the onus is on the believer to present strong evidence that God exists. In particular, to provide some sort of explanation as to what this "God" actually is. I have never heard a single convincing explanation as to what God might be. The truth is we don't know why we are here and where we came from and probably never will. It is one of the fantastic mysteries of the universe and for some is an enthralling subject. Why did the universe spring into existence 14 billion years ago? Did God make that happen? If so, where did this God come from?

The question is inevitable and ridiculous at the same time. There is no definitive answer and probably never will be....unless some sage on HPC can shed some light on it.

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....................................I don't think atheists have to try very hard to convince themselves that God doesn't exist. It's more that they find it difficult to believe that God does exist. I would have thought that the onus is on the believer to present strong evidence that God exists. In particular, to provide some sort of explanation as to what this "God" actually is. I have never heard a single convincing explanation as to what God might be. The truth is we don't know why we are here and where we came from and probably never will. It is one of the fantastic mysteries of the universe and for some is an enthralling subject. Why did the universe spring into existence 14 billion years ago? Did God make that happen? If so, where did this God come from?

The question is inevitable and ridiculous at the same time. There is no definitive answer and probably never will be....unless some sage on HPC can shed some light on it.

Pascal's Wager

p-o-p

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Professional liar gets tongue lashing from group of professional liars in frocks.

.

Not much of a headline. Nice to see more anti brown news but I'd rather i was from someone with inellectual pedigree than a load of fairy botherers.

.

As for this Atheism is a belief system nonsense do we really have to go back over the the teapot / invisible pink unicorn / FSM / aruments again. God botherers always try to maintain Atheism is a belief system so that they can fight it on their own ground. Whereas the intelligent Atheist just shrugs and asks them to prove his invisible friend Marcus the Bear dosnt exist and asks if their failure to believe in Marcus is a belief system.

.

ST

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Yes, every belief involves a corresponding disbelief and vice-versa.

Do you believe in ETs? Why?

Are you Einstein or something?

I think it's great that people have faith and beliefs - if it gives them a moral compass and a propensity to 'be nice'. I can understand that it is a comfort and a demystifier for many. I don't share that. I have never had any time for people who try to to force their beliefs on me (and not just in the religious sense - that could easily apply to 'property only ever going up').

The best we can hope for is to live our lives, being good, kind, considerate, honest... who knows we may then lead good, fulfilled lives and meet our maker with a clear conscience. Worm food or heavenly bliss.

I welcome the bishops attack on Brown because it will have some clout, some resonance, though you would wonder whether the bishops' communities are the people who are actually in trouble.

Do I believe in ETs? Well it's a big, big universe, chances are life does exists somewhere, in some form. So probably... though I'll never know, and I don't give it a lot of thought. It is certainly not a belief.

Edit: ET bit.

Edited by tinker
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Atheism is definitely a religion... it is a fundamental belief in the non-existence of god.

Indeed, more "real" Atheists, are more religious than many Vicars!

Mathematics relies on the "belief" in un-provable axioms too!

It's quite odd how a lot of stuff relies on the un-provable, but still works out to provide a good model,

whether scientific or moral!

And I don't pretend to know the anwers to that! :(

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It's not a belief.

It's an absence of belief. Negatives are hard to process, I realise.

Atheists don't say: "I don't believe in a God."

They say: "I believe there is no God."

"I don't believe in a God" is more like agnosticism of the Huxleyan sort, ie religion's nonsense that I don't feel the need to either prove or disprove, as there's no evidence for it and no need to posit it.

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Atheists don't say: "I don't believe in a God."

They say: "I believe there is no God."

"I don't believe in a God" is more like agnosticism of the Huxleyan sort, ie religion's nonsense that I don't feel the need to either prove or disprove, as there's no evidence for it and no need to posit it.

Wikipedia's a bit more ecumenical on the issue:

"Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] It is also[3] defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.[4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

a question of definition, in other words.

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I think Atheism is a perfectly valid religion. It believes that matter exists in and of its own ultimately purposeless accord. It holds to a suggested truth that the universe created itself, ordered itself and that the ultimate purpose is no purpose. It is a fine "ism" and every bit as valid as a religion that says the universe was created by a greater intelligence than itself. Atheism is perhaps the highest form of religion because it holds to a certainty, rare in most other religions, that there is nothing else. Even an agnostic does not hold to this level of certainty as they will claim that you cannot be 100% certain that there is or is not a God.

Stalin's "ism" (communism) was also valid as one of the world religions because it involved a belief system that the State, and not an objective "God", is the ultimate good. Whatever was good for the State was, by definition, "good." THus the "opiate of the masses" of the Soviet Russians was that "god" (or the ultimate purpose) was the State and as Stalin was the State he was also "god." Stalin was no atheist but was a highly religious man with many rituals of state that involved ethnic cleansing or a belief that certain groups had a right to exist over against other groups which did not.

Man is trapped by having to define his own "ism" and cannot define for others what their "isms" are or ought to be. Belief that something does or does not exist is a good starting point.

An amazing and scary distortion of the facts! You are so locked into a supernatural vision of the world that you don't seem to be able to think of any system in anything other than religious terms! Like, not collecting stamps must be a hobby to you (like not believing in sky gods is a religion to you).

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