Waiting For Years, We're Getting Tired And Depressed

[Tired of Waiting]

Yep, the vast waste of human talent and potential lost to housing booms borders on tragic.

"High house prices ruin lives".

But it IS tragic! The bursting of this huge properties prices bubble (mainly in the USA and UK) undermined the banks in both countries, and then caused this financial crises in both countries, and then it affected the whole world!

Our government has tried to blame the financial crisis for the fall in properties prices, but it was the other way round! Overvalued properties were given as collaterals for loans, in this vicious circle of ever greater debts and ever higher housing "prices" (housing "costs" for you and me - who need a home).

This bubble bursting generated a global recession. Imagine how many jobs lost, how many families in deep trouble - millions! And how many families affected to the point of rupture - divorce?!

And in poor countries a recession is much much worse. Over there unemployment means hunger.

My God, it IS tragic!

[Guest Parry aka GOD]

My wife and I are really very tired of waiting, for years, for this crazy housing market to get back down to sensible levels, living in this small, ugly, expensive privately rented flat, and we may be getting depressed.

The housing market has been always ahead of us. We got married in 2000, but it took us a few years to have any money. Since 2005 I knew it was a bubble, and decided to wait. Now it is bursting, but slowly, and it will take at least another 2 years to really get close to the bottom. And here in West Sussex it is just starting to burst, with most sellers still in denial, resisting, and it may take even longer!

Our main problem is: we have been married for 8 years now, we are still living in this depressing flat. We couldn't even feel like starting a family in such depressing surroundings. Meanwhile, as we have been also paying a lot of taxes, we have managed to save just a small deposit (some �8,000). And the government is using our tax money to bailout banks, home-owners, and the "housing market" (trying to slow down the correction)!

We are getting really depressed, and I am afraid that we may be getting clinically depressed.

We thought about renting a better place, to wait a couple of years to buy, but living in better surroundings. But my rational side tells me we should save for a better deposit. I don't know what to do. We are so tired.

It's only a house. Once you have one it's a pain in the ar$e anyway. Seriously mush, you are actually going to drop dead one day, so who cares?

Do the lot on travel.

Come to think of it, you're only buying 50% of a divorce settlement and in the meantime get stuck in the damn place with the same angry b1tch.

Get yourself a new iPod.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Parry aka GOD

[thedebtisreal]

As usual with many couples, in the first few years we were not saving anything, as only I was working, until my wife finished her University, then we were earning entry level salaries, etc. Now we are saving almost £1000/month.

So thats only eight months of saving. You're being a little impatient. Its tough getting on the housing market.

Houses will fall slowly, despite what some here might thinking. Just console yourself with the fact that they are not going to shoot up any time soon, so don't fell so pressured, you are not missing any boat. Maybe its worth spending an extra 300/400 a month on a nicer rental place. Look to get a big discount on something priced much higher. I've found landlords of more expensive properties treat there tenants much nicer. Lower interest rates have the advantage of making landlords to amenable to rent cuts, so be aggressive. Living somewhere nicer takes away a big chunk of the frustration as I learned a few years ago.

[Tired of Waiting]

It's only a house. Once you have one it's a pain in the ar$e anyway. Seriously mush, you are actually going to drop dead one day, so who cares?

Do the lot on travel.

Come to think of it, you're only buying 50% of a divorce settlement and in the meantime get stuck in the damn place with the same angry b1tch.

Get yourself a new iPod.

Thanks for your post PaG. You are right. Others advised us on the same direction: "rent a better place, and enjoy yourselves!" Absolutely right. We have decided to do just that.

We've also realised that the aspect that depresses us most here is the location, and not the size, or the fact that it is rented. We are already looking for a better place to rent. . . . But I must confess that I still find very difficult to pay £800/month, or more in rent. It seems that this is what you have to pay around here, in West Sussex, to get a nice place. We are paying £615/mo here. But I am trying hard to change myself, and be less tight-fisted ! Lets see. I've just bought the local paper. Let see if I can rent directly from an owner, saving agencies' fees.

Thanks again for your post.

[thedebtisreal]

Thanks for your post PaG. You are right. Others advised us on the same direction: "rent a better place, and enjoy yourselves!" Absolutely right. We have decided to do just that.

We've also realised that the aspect that depresses us most here is the location, and not the size, or the fact that it is rented. We are already looking for a better place to rent. . . . But I must confess that I still find very difficult to pay £800/month, or more in rent. It seems that this is what you have to pay around here, in West Sussex, to get a nice place. We are paying £615/mo here. But I am trying hard to change myself, and be less tight-fisted ! Lets see. I've just bought the local paper. Let see if I can rent directly from an owner, saving agencies' fees.

Thanks again for your post.

Good for you TOW. Location really is the most important thing. I know of people who have found houses that looked nice for the price and have been stuck in Tottenham fearing for their lives and realising they were happier with their flat in Islington. Even with the child.

[Tired of Waiting]

Good for you TOW. Location really is the most important thing. I know of people who have found houses that looked nice for the price and have been stuck in Tottenham fearing for their lives and realising they were happier with their flat in Islington. Even with the child.

Thank you for your posts thedebtisreal, they were very useful, confirming some other sensible advises in this forum.

I was just going to reply to your previous message when I saw this one:

(1) So thats only eight months of saving. (...)

Well, our savings are not that "linear", as our income varies, and our expenses too (example: we could not resist to a holiday last month...) We are trying to balance some savings for the future, with some "living the present".

(2) Houses will fall slowly

I know. Thanks to this government pumping loads of our tax money to support high housing costs...

(3) nicer rental place. Look to get a big discount on something priced much higher.

Do you think we can negotiate rents even if we are dealing with a letting agency?

We should get very good references, as we have been in this flat for almost 6 years now (unbelievably...), and have always paid the rent on time and were very careful with the flat (not a single nail). And we have good credit histories.

What do you mean by a "big" discount? 5, 10, 20%?

Cheers

[TheGoodlife]

(3) nicer rental place. Look to get a big discount on something priced much higher.

Do you think we can negotiate rents even if we are dealing with a letting agency?

We should get very good references, as we have been in this flat for almost 6 years now (unbelievably...), and have always paid the rent on time and were very careful with the flat (not a single nail). And we have good credit histories.

What do you mean by a "big" discount? 5, 10, 20%?

£615 x 12 = £7380

£7380 x 6 = £44280

Hells bells

[Tired of Waiting]

£615 x 12 = £7380

£7380 x 6 = £44280

Hells bells

Yep. Not to have capital is very, very expensive... (Is that why they call this system "capitalism"?!)____ ;-)

Same problem if you "buy", via a mortgage though, as the interest part of your mortgage (which is most of it) is as much a "waste" as renting. As are all the fees (legal and financial), stamp duty and commissions.

Usually, the most important point when comparing buying Vs renting is capital gain or loss.

The only good moment to buy is at (or at least near) the bottom.

[TheGoodlife]

Yep. Not to have capital is very, very expensive... (Is that why they call this system "capitalism"?!)____ ;-)

Same problem if you "buy", via a mortgage though, as the interest part of your mortgage (which is most of it) is as much a "waste" as renting. As are all the fees (legal and financial), stamp duty and commissions.

Usually, the most important point when comparing buying Vs renting is capital gain or loss.

The only good moment to buy is at (or at least near) the bottom.

But you are planning on buying at somepoint anyway, so those costs (interest + fees) are going to have to be paid at some point.

I very much doubt that for the type of house you're going to be going after, there will be as much as a £45k drop between peak and trough.

Of course the costs will be lower the cheaper the house is, but again, I don't think you're going to "save" much money the way you've done it.

[Greg Bowman]

Look to get a big discount on something priced much higher. I've found landlords of more expensive properties treat there tenants much nicer. Lower interest rates have the advantage of making landlords to amenable to rent cuts, so be aggressive. Living somewhere nicer takes away a big chunk of the frustration as I learned a few years ago.

Couldn't agree more. Only ever rented two houses since Nov 07 when we sold. First one was 4 bed in good area second one is worth about 850k and we are paying 1900 a month. whacking great good nick 5 bed.

Still have a curry with the first landlord and the second is a little less friendly but still a gent (we did knock him down 800 on the rental so maybe he has an excuse)

The truth is they need us as much as we need a decent rental in these uncertain times - and before the trolls go on about rent being dead money - here are the figures:

Sold our house for 670k in Nov 07

Next door neighbours sold house that was up for 650k when ours was up for 690k nearly two years ago in June this year for 480k

Now that is dead money!

[Tired of Waiting]

"before the trolls go on about rent being dead money - here are the figures (...) Sold our house for 670k in Nov 07.

Next door neighbours sold house (...) in June this year for 480k

Well done.

Capitalism does have a Darwinian fairness after all.

I will only buy at the bottom. Meanwhile, I'll invest our savings in Euros.

[Tired of Waiting]

But you are planning on buying at somepoint anyway, so those costs (interest + fees) are going to have to be paid at some point.

I very much doubt that for the type of house you're going to be going after, there will be as much as a £45k drop between peak and trough.

Of course the costs will be lower the cheaper the house is, but again, I don't think you're going to "save" much money the way you've done it.

Ok, I agree re. fees - I will have to pay them at some point.

But you still can't see that rent and interests are both an identical form of "waste". Actually they are virtually identical forms of renting capital. (If I were to buy this ugly flat I would pay exactly the same in interest alone to the bank as I now pay in rent to the landlord.) The difference is that with interests you rent an amount of cash, and with rent you rent a building. They are both "rents".

To calculate which one will be a better deal depends on how much you will have to pay for each (in rent and interest), and how much you think these 2 things (buildings or sterling) will be worth in the future.

I know they will both go down. So, I'll rent (a better place) for now, and invest my savings in Euros (and a few other currencies). And I'll buy in a few years, at the bottom.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Tired of waiting

[thedebtisreal]

£615 x 12 = £7380

£7380 x 6 = £44280

Hells bells

I've spent way more than that over seven years. But for those of my age in London (late twenties) thats normal. Those who have bought have faired little better. Just as much spent in mortgage interest, redecorating, maintenance, ground rent, replacing boilers, agency fees, mortgage arrangement fees, solictors etc and negative equity as well.

The only one of my age doing well is someone who bought with with a big inheritance.

Its tough for those of that age. Or I used to think that until I see the problems those in their early twenties are facing. I'm glad I was not born seven years ago.

[thedebtisreal]

Thank you for your posts thedebtisreal, they were very useful, confirming some other sensible advises in this forum.

I was just going to reply to your previous message when I saw this one:

(1) So thats only eight months of saving. (...)

Well, our savings are not that "linear", as our income varies, and our expenses too (example: we could not resist to a holiday last month...) We are trying to balance some savings for the future, with some "living the present".

(2) Houses will fall slowly

I know. Thanks to this government pumping loads of our tax money to support high housing costs...

(3) nicer rental place. Look to get a big discount on something priced much higher.

Do you think we can negotiate rents even if we are dealing with a letting agency?

We should get very good references, as we have been in this flat for almost 6 years now (unbelievably...), and have always paid the rent on time and were very careful with the flat (not a single nail). And we have good credit histories.

What do you mean by a "big" discount? 5, 10, 20%?

Cheers

(1) Thats wise. Enjoy the present, prepare for the future.

(2) Yeah, the b@stards. They'll make it worse in the long run.

(3) The fact that it is through a letting agency doesn't matter. They get paid to find tenants, not fleece you for the most rent they can. Look now and look for properties that are sticking. Remember its voids that kill landlords. They would rather have tenants in on a discount than no tenants at all. I would be cheeky and start with 20%, you've nothing to lose. If the landlord rejects the offer and the flat remains empty for another three months, they have lost out on money keeping it empty. Interest rates are lower, so most are just happy to cover their costs and walk away happy. You'll be lucky to get 20%, but its not like buying a house. Landlords aren't as precious about rental levels as homeowners are about values. You won't get laughed out of town, but they may come back with a counter offer. Find a few places you like and play them off against each other. One thing I suggest doing is looking when you have less than a month in your current place. Landlords put a premium on tenants that can move in immediately.

Oh, and have fun.

[TheGoodlife]

Ok, I agree re. fees - I will have to pay them at some point.

But you still can't see that rent and interests are both an identical form of "waste". Actually they are virtually identical forms of renting capital. (If I were to buy this ugly flat I would pay exactly the same in interest alone to the bank as I now pay in rent to the landlord.) The difference is that with interests you rent an amount of cash, and with rent you rent a building. They are both "rents".

To calculate which one will be a better deal depends on how much you will have to pay for each (in rent and interest), and how much you think these 2 things (buildings or sterling) will be worth in the future.

I know they will both go down. So, I'll rent (a better place) for now, and invest my savings in Euros (and a few other currencies). And I'll buy in a few years, at the bottom.

Renting has it's positives, definatly. I'm certainly not anti-renting.

But renting for 6 (+ a few years) just to try and save money on your house purchase is, well, a bit odd to me.

So the 6 years have cost you 44280k. You said a few more years you want to rent and I'm sure you mentioned paying more for a better place (£800 p/m?)

(800x12) x 3 = £28800

So in the 9 years you've would have been waiting to buy a house you could have paid £73080 off your mortage.

I just can't see the logic of long term renting with the aim of saving money on a house purchase.

[Dorkins]

I just can't see the logic of long term renting with the aim of saving money on a house purchase.

Every £1 that house prices fall saves them £2 or £3 over their lifetimes when the cost of mortgage interest is taken into account. If they want to buy a £200k house and think prices will fall by 30% over the next 5 years, they can afford to spend £12k a year renting and still come out streets ahead thanks to the amount they saved on interest. Put your own numbers in and see what you make of it.

Edited September 16, 2009 by bearly legal

[Guest Parry aka GOD]

Thanks for your post PaG. You are right. Others advised us on the same direction: "rent a better place, and enjoy yourselves!" Absolutely right. We have decided to do just that.

We've also realised that the aspect that depresses us most here is the location, and not the size, or the fact that it is rented. We are already looking for a better place to rent. . . . But I must confess that I still find very difficult to pay £800/month, or more in rent. It seems that this is what you have to pay around here, in West Sussex, to get a nice place. We are paying £615/mo here. But I am trying hard to change myself, and be less tight-fisted ! Lets see. I've just bought the local paper. Let see if I can rent directly from an owner, saving agencies' fees.

Thanks again for your post.

Seriously now, I just 20 mins ago finally had a chat with the dear wife of near 8 years. I've built houses, sent kids to private school, did everything right, nice bloke too . . . she's in love with another (right scumbag by all accounts) and has been for 2 years.

Marriage . . . home ownership . . . happy families . . . fvck me I've never seen it apart from in those irritating Steve Martin films.

Should have done the lot on coke and whores as was originally planned. Once you have a decent plan like that stick to it!

[TheGoodlife]

Every �1 that house prices fall saves them �2 or �3 over their lifetimes when the cost of mortgage interest is taken into account. If they want to buy a �200k house and think prices will fall by 30% over the next 5 years, they can afford to spend �12k a year renting and still come out streets ahead thanks to the amount they saved on interest. Put your own numbers in and see what you make of it.

My own numbers?

House bought Jan 2006 - Price 82k, deposit 10k

Mortgage £360 pm - 5.9% fixed for 7 years.

You can do the maths if you want, my little brain hurts.

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

Seriously now, I just 20 mins ago finally had a chat with the dear wife of near 8 years. I've built houses, sent kids to private school, did everything right, nice bloke too . . . she's in love with another (right scumbag by all accounts) and has been for 2 years.

Marriage . . . home ownership . . . happy families . . . fvck me I've never seen it apart from in those irritating Steve Martin films.

Should have done the lot on coke and whores as was originally planned. Once you have a decent plan like that stick to it!

I blame the Bisto and Kellogg's adverts of the 70s for implanting false ideals.

I've found that if you can manage the sort of demented joy of one of those adverts for even 3 minutes a week, you're doing well.

[Guest Parry aka GOD]

I blame the Bisto and Kellogg's adverts of the 70s for implanting false ideals.

I've found that if you can manage the sort of demented joy of one of those adverts for even 3 minutes a week, you're doing well.

The fifties ads I reckon. Always had that smiley little blonde sort of brat that was also used in government nuclear war public information films . . . as well as flogging rice fvckin' crispies.

Joy to me is mowing the lawn. That's about it.

[Dorkins]

Seems they call it Off Topic for a reason...

[Dorkins]

My own numbers?

House bought Jan 2006 - Price 82k, deposit 10k

Mortgage £360 pm - 5.9% fixed for 7 years.

You can do the maths if you want, my little brain hurts.

My calculator says you'll be fine

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

. . . yet. There's always time.

Scorpion venom induced pancreatitis.

You've got to keep your eye on those slopes.

[Guest Parry aka GOD]

Seems they call it Off Topic for a reason...

Oh . . . where are we? Oh . . . back in the Misery Forum. I get lost sometimes.

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

Done already.

Humans? Just about every human I've known has been a right kunt to me. I'm changing business. I'm gonna hurt people for money now.

You're going to become a PVC clad dominatrix?