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Osbourne And His Plans


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The tories created incapacity benefit, it has actually got tougher under new labour and there is now no such thing as incapacity benefit for new claimants, the replacement is less money and far stricter in terms of classifying someone as unable to work.

I agree with the points made about our manufacturing output, thatcher started the mess there and she introduced the policies that encouraged people to only think of themselves such as buying their council house. Labour are not innocent tho they have had the chance to reverse thatcher's policies but instead carried them on eg. selling of state assets and deregulating various parts of banking.

Manufacturing will eventually come back to this country when india and china overtake us in living standards and wages we will then become the cheap labour force.

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Guest pioneer31

I think the Tories should throw the forthcoming election. There's nothing they can do to solve the mess

Perhaps after 5 years of hard times under GB, even the thickest and most blinkered hardcore Labour voter will see the light.

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Guest pioneer31
The tories created incapacity benefit, it has actually got tougher under new labour and there is now no such thing as incapacity benefit for new claimants, the replacement is less money and far stricter in terms of classifying someone as unable to work.

If that's true, we truly are the sick man of Europe.

2.7 million people unfit for work.

The UK gene pool is seriously infected !

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I think the Tories should throw the forthcoming election. There's nothing they can do to solve the mess

Perhaps after 5 years of hard times under GB, even the thickest and most blinkered hardcore Labour voter will see the light.

And I thought the last election was a good one to loose!

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I see a lot of people berate Brown and Darling for their plans and their policies vs HPC/HPI. That's always struck me as a bit silly really especially as the Tories are massive proponents of higher lending, HPI, low interest rates and even the deregulation of the mortgage market to allow banks to do as they like. Only last year they were saying that the banks are responsible enough not to need regulation. After all, they say, the banks take the risk, not us.

Then today we have Osbourne interviewed on R4. How can anyone here want him in power after what he says? Incredible.

As bad as it might sound, I think we have a better chance with Brown and Darling than these two Eton boys who seem to have no idea whatsoever. Just listen to the interview.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsi...000/7747450.stm

In answer to your original question,by virtue that this site was started a few years ago now-and the mess we are in proves just how incompetent the present Government are as most of what is happening today was predicted here. GB is an utter disgrace and anyone will be better than him and his shower.

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This afternoon I had an interesting conversation with a Tokyo based economist who experienced the collapse here in Japan. He pointed out that in the problems Britain and others are facing now can only be solved by fiscal stimulus. Monetary policy, he said, won't work when companies and people are too indebted. Even if its cheap people and companies won't want to borrow and banks won't want to lend. The only option to avoid a deep recession, he said, is fiscal stimulus. That's why in Japan, despite land prices falling over 80% from the peak, its GDP remained above pre-Bubble levels. Of course, to achieve that cost a fortune.

Then I listen to this interview and Osbourne's line: "We have to use monetary policy".

Yes, Japan did a great job. What is it now? 18 years with no growth. And, of course, Japan is a great manufacturing nation - and its companies manufacture in many countries around the world - including the UK.

Remind me, how many UK car companies have huge factories in Japan making cars for the Asian market?

Still, an 80% drop in land values sounds good to me.

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The tories created incapacity benefit, it has actually got tougher under new labour and there is now no such thing as incapacity benefit for new claimants, the replacement is less money and far stricter in terms of classifying someone as unable to work.

I agree with the points made about our manufacturing output, thatcher started the mess there and she introduced the policies that encouraged people to only think of themselves such as buying their council house. Labour are not innocent tho they have had the chance to reverse thatcher's policies but instead carried them on eg. selling of state assets and deregulating various parts of banking.

Manufacturing will eventually come back to this country when india and china overtake us in living standards and wages we will then become the cheap labour force.

Look back to the Government before hers and you'll find it was shambolic way before she came to power.

Remember the strikes of the 70's etc,winter of dis-content?? Maybe you don't if you have selective memory!!

Makes me laugh how people like you think that May '79 was the start of all our problems.

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This afternoon I had an interesting conversation with a Tokyo based economist who experienced the collapse here in Japan. He pointed out that in the problems Britain and others are facing now can only be solved by fiscal stimulus. Monetary policy, he said, won't work when companies and people are too indebted. Even if its cheap people and companies won't want to borrow and banks won't want to lend. The only option to avoid a deep recession, he said, is fiscal stimulus. That's why in Japan, despite land prices falling over 80% from the peak, its GDP remained above pre-Bubble levels. Of course, to achieve that cost a fortune.

Then I listen to this interview and Osbourne's line: "We have to use monetary policy".

you might soften the blow in the short term with such an approach but in the long term you just make the problems worse.

Also remember Japan could fund its fiscal stimulus internally as it had savings and a trade surplus. Britain has none of those things.

The solution is that a lot of debt has to be defaulted on and people recognise their losses. This results in a lot of short term pain but eventually it has to happen and longer you postpone it the worse the final day of reckoning.

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Yes, Japan did a great job. What is it now? 18 years with no growth. And, of course, Japan is a great manufacturing nation - and its companies manufacture in many countries around the world - including the UK.

Remind me, how many UK car companies have huge factories in Japan making cars for the Asian market?

Still, an 80% drop in land values sounds good to me.

Not no growth. Slow growth. They experienced one of the biggest bubbles in history and managed to maintain the GDP and fairly low unemployment in the horrific aftermath. Incidentally, before slipping into recession last quarter, Japan grew every quarter since 2001. The growth since then was pretty small but it was continuous and without a property bubble. It was also the longest period of growth since the end of WW2. This is why Japanese companies are currently on a spending spree acquiring businesses overseas--it's the cash saved from rising earnings in the last seven years.

The point on UK manufacturing is a fair enough but I still think fiscal stimulus is right or at least unavoidable for the UK. The problem, well-rehearsed on here, is that Brown didn't put anything aside during the good times. But what's the alternative? A huge recession? Millions unemployed?

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you might soften the blow in the short term with such an approach but in the long term you just make the problems worse.

Also remember Japan could fund its fiscal stimulus internally as it had savings and a trade surplus. Britain has none of those things.

The solution is that a lot of debt has to be defaulted on and people recognise their losses. This results in a lot of short term pain but eventually it has to happen and longer you postpone it the worse the final day of reckoning.

I agree completely on the savings issue and the trade surplus, but I still think Britain is right to spend now. There's no easy way out--it's just a question of choosing the least worse solution. If companies focus on reducing debt and improving their balance sheets (and people), the economy will plummet, companies will earn less and their debts will shrink less quickly.

I can't bear Brown and his posturing amid all this, but Osbourne seems even worse. I'm gonna vote Lib Dem next time even if they can't win.

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Interesting to read people's opinions of the evil Tory govt of the 80's

What do you think Labour would have done?

It would have been all the same but cost 5 times as much.

Likewise, what would the Tories have done about the credit binge? Absolutely Fu ck All - they pride themselves of being the party in business's pocket. The last thing they would do would have been to regulate any of that.

"Whoever you vote for you get a government" (Lemmy Kilmister)

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Not no growth. Slow growth. They experienced one of the biggest bubbles in history and managed to maintain the GDP and fairly low unemployment in the horrific aftermath. Incidentally, before slipping into recession last quarter, Japan grew every quarter since 2001. The growth since then was pretty small but it was continuous and without a property bubble. It was also the longest period of growth since the end of WW2. This is why Japanese companies are currently on a spending spree acquiring businesses overseas--it's the cash saved from rising earnings in the last seven years.

The point on UK manufacturing is a fair enough but I still think fiscal stimulus is right or at least unavoidable for the UK. The problem, well-rehearsed on here, is that Brown didn't put anything aside during the good times. But what's the alternative? A huge recession? Millions unemployed?

so we carrying on importing iPods on Government credit and pretend everything is fine for short while then what happens? We're back to the same problem as before except with more debt to carry.

As I pointed out above the UK is not Japan as Japan had lots of savings and a trade surplus. It could fund its stimulus internally. We can't.

Edited by JimmyMac
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I agree completely on the savings issue and the trade surplus, but I still think Britain is right to spend now. There's no easy way out--it's just a question of choosing the least worse solution. If companies focus on reducing debt and improving their balance sheets (and people), the economy will plummet, companies will earn less and their debts will shrink less quickly.

I can't bear Brown and his posturing amid all this, but Osbourne seems even worse. I'm gonna vote Lib Dem next time even if they can't win.

but it doesn't solve the problem it just delays the problem a little longer, making it a little bigger. The ultimate conclusion of this line of policy is total monetary and possibly political collapse when people no longer want to buy our gilts and we can no longer fund the basic functions of Government.

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Western economies have been out-thought by the Japanese and Chinese. Relying on deficits, consumption and services is a road to ruin. The UK needs its economy rebalanced in favour of production and away from deficits - we have the design and innovation and academic talent here. Think of all those billions p1ssed away on houses when just a fraction invested in productive enterprises would have left us less vulnerable.

Going into more debt now wont save things. It's not the solution, it's the problem

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Western economies have been out-thought by the Japanese and Chinese. Relying on deficits, consumption and services is a road to ruin. The UK needs its economy rebalanced in favour of production and away from deficits - we have the design and innovation and academic talent here. Think of all those billions p1ssed away on houses when just a fraction invested in productive enterprises would have left us less vulnerable.

Going into more debt now wont save things. It's not the solution, it's the problem

Exactly. The Government is trying to restart the Ponzi scheme and hope no one notices what it really is.

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This coming weekend is the last payday before Xmas for many. If their bosses call them in to say "no money, couldn't get a short term loan to cover the payroll" there'd be mayhem. Same again for those that are paid just before Xmas (bit of a December treat for some I believe).

Some companies borrow in the short term just to cover their payroll before they get paid from their customers ... who are increasingly delaying paying.

Myu point exactly. So forcing the banks to provide this short term finance is essential. The tories knwo this and that is why they said it was a priority.

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The tories created incapacity benefit, it has actually got tougher under new labour and there is now no such thing as incapacity benefit for new claimants, the replacement is less money and far stricter in terms of classifying someone as unable to work.

I agree with the points made about our manufacturing output, thatcher started the mess there and she introduced the policies that encouraged people to only think of themselves such as buying their council house. Labour are not innocent tho they have had the chance to reverse thatcher's policies but instead carried them on eg. selling of state assets and deregulating various parts of banking.

Manufacturing will eventually come back to this country when india and china overtake us in living standards and wages we will then become the cheap labour force.

Now don't go suggesting there was any compassion in the Tories, creating a benefit, you'll spoil the illusion.

Terms of incapacity benefit is so strict now that numbers have,er, well, let's not let facts get in the way of a good point about the fiscal discipline of Labour.

Let's forget that Labour started the council house sale program in the 1970's, you know, when they were bust, bailed by the IMF and forced to sell assets in a slump. And lets not think that people owning their own homes is a good thing, they should always be dependent on the State. And lets not look at how many were actually sold as a percentage of the stock, because its actually quite a modest number versus the emotive argument that it was nearly all sold.

There is a solution to not having much manufacturing. Rather than wait and get the lowest earning least value-added industry, we could try to educate children to achieve high standards, rather than educate to the lowest common denominator in subjects with little or no merit, promote investment in industry and allow those who invest and take risk to earn a good return without being pilloried and penalised.

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i dont agree labour borrowing all this money but the tories dont offer anything different.

This is true, and I think everyone sees it. Both parties have been complicit in destroying our country in many different ways, why does anyone think that either has the answer now? :blink:

Edited by Britney's Piers
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Interesting to read people's opinions of the evil Tory govt of the 80's

What do you think Labour would have done?

It would have been all the same but cost 5 times as much.

Yes they evily stopped suspidising loss making industry and allowed the 'lame duck' - a term by a labour minister - to die, tried to balance the budget and took down the unions that had reeked so much havoc. Remember it well. As for 3 million unemployed that was a peak figure and it was dropping markedly by the time the tories were thrown out. As was govenment debt levels. As for minum wage, why do you think there are so many call centres over seas now. As soon as minmum wage was introduced we started out sourcing them. IT was just cheaper. The most expensive part of a call centre is it's staff and turn over is very high. Just to expensive here now. I like many other high skilled individuals will be out of here if they get in again. I jsut can't stick it anymore.... especially after yesterday. They want MORE F*cking money out of me.... MORE. I have f*cking had it completely. I pay a F*cking Fortune already. Stop redistributing my wealth I earnt it. I want right do you have to take 40% + of my wages, then tax what I spend, tax what I save. So you can force me to carry an ID card, ban me from having a fag in the pub, spend billions on 1000's of civil servant all checking what each other and we are doing.

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Now don't go suggesting there was any compassion in the Tories, creating a benefit, you'll spoil the illusion.

Terms of incapacity benefit is so strict now that numbers have,er, well, let's not let facts get in the way of a good point about the fiscal discipline of Labour.

Let's forget that Labour started the council house sale program in the 1970's, you know, when they were bust, bailed by the IMF and forced to sell assets in a slump. And lets not think that people owning their own homes is a good thing, they should always be dependent on the State. And lets not look at how many were actually sold as a percentage of the stock, because its actually quite a modest number versus the emotive argument that it was nearly all sold.

There is a solution to not having much manufacturing. Rather than wait and get the lowest earning least value-added industry, we could try to educate children to achieve high standards, rather than educate to the lowest common denominator in subjects with little or no merit, promote investment in industry and allow those who invest and take risk to earn a good return without being pilloried and penalised.

All the bad things in the world come from the toreis, all light and nice things coem from labour you should know that. Personally if I see a labour canvaser on my drive next election and he is not holding a tax rebate check I'm setting the dogs on him. I think that my don't ring we vote conservative poster on the door will be replaced with all labour supporters will be charged with trespass.

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Next time, when claiming that my points are "categorically incorrect" it would be nice of you to say why.

As for my response, first you can listen to the clip. It obvious Osbourne finds it difficult to talk when numbers are involved. Forcing banks to lend? Lowering interest rates? It's a wishlist. Come on George, HOW will you actually do these things.

Just as interesting, only a year ago your party was talking about the following:

http://www.mortgagesolutions-online.com/pu...tml?page=463242

Interesting no? Or are you suggesting that this is a good idea?

ok, so no sources then re: your point and the current position

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No one seems all that interested in the fact that Cameron and Osbourne, only last year, wanted to deregulate the mortgage market and allow it to regulate itself.

Does the average HPCer now think mortgage deregulation is a good idea?????

if that was actually true, which it isn't, then that would be a good thing

as long as the government wasn't bailing out banks and mortgage companies and know if they fck up they go bankrupt and lose everything then they might start behaving a little more sensibly.

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Guest pioneer31
Yes they evily stopped suspidising loss making industry and allowed the 'lame duck' - a term by a labour minister - to die, tried to balance the budget and took down the unions that had reeked so much havoc. Remember it well. As for 3 million unemployed that was a peak figure and it was dropping markedly by the time the tories were thrown out. As was govenment debt levels. As for minum wage, why do you think there are so many call centres over seas now. As soon as minmum wage was introduced we started out sourcing them. IT was just cheaper. The most expensive part of a call centre is it's staff and turn over is very high. Just to expensive here now. I like many other high skilled individuals will be out of here if they get in again. I jsut can't stick it anymore.... especially after yesterday. They want MORE F*cking money out of me.... MORE. I have f*cking had it completely. I pay a F*cking Fortune already. Stop redistributing my wealth I earnt it. I want right do you have to take 40% + of my wages, then tax what I spend, tax what I save. So you can force me to carry an ID card, ban me from having a fag in the pub, spend billions on 1000's of civil servant all checking what each other and we are doing.

It's like the 15% interest rates quote, that Labour are so fond of spouting. How long were interest rates 15% for, exactly??? Nothing like as long as the record low rates and sky high property prices we've 'enjoyed' under this shower

I'm also sick of minimum wage being touted as some sort of wonderful kind scheme introduced by Labour. Thicky Labour voters think that it forces employers to pay the 'going rate' because they have an endless pit of profits, right? whereas you and I know that in reality, they just circumvent it - overseas call centress, immigrant labour and so on

Edited by pioneer31
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