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Osbourne And His Plans


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I see a lot of people berate Brown and Darling for their plans and their policies vs HPC/HPI. That's always struck me as a bit silly really especially as the Tories are massive proponents of higher lending, HPI, low interest rates and even the deregulation of the mortgage market to allow banks to do as they like. Only last year they were saying that the banks are responsible enough not to need regulation. After all, they say, the banks take the risk, not us.

Then today we have Osbourne interviewed on R4. How can anyone here want him in power after what he says? Incredible.

As bad as it might sound, I think we have a better chance with Brown and Darling than these two Eton boys who seem to have no idea whatsoever. Just listen to the interview.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsi...000/7747450.stm

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I see a lot of people berate Brown and Darling for their plans and their policies vs HPC/HPI. That's always struck me as a bit silly really especially as the Tories are massive proponents of higher lending, HPI, low interest rates and even the deregulation of the mortgage market to allow banks to do as they like. Only last year they were saying that the banks are responsible enough not to need regulation. After all, they say, the banks take the risk, not us.

most of your points here are categorically incorrect re: current tory approach so could you perhaps at least provide specific sources?

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most of your points here are categorically incorrect re: current tory approach so could you perhaps at least provide specific sources?

Next time, when claiming that my points are "categorically incorrect" it would be nice of you to say why.

As for my response, first you can listen to the clip. It obvious Osbourne finds it difficult to talk when numbers are involved. Forcing banks to lend? Lowering interest rates? It's a wishlist. Come on George, HOW will you actually do these things.

Just as interesting, only a year ago your party was talking about the following:

http://www.mortgagesolutions-online.com/pu...tml?page=463242

Interesting no? Or are you suggesting that this is a good idea?

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I thought this was an excellent article.

Times Review

I am someone that has never voted Labour. Grew up under Thatcher with Welsh parents. But also know a fair bit about economics. There is no way that you can blame the UK's problems on Global issues that Labour have been powerless to stop. This Recession and Spending boom is a very large part their fault. It is sickening the way Gordon is prepared to destroy the UK just to get one more term!

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I see a lot of people berate Brown and Darling for their plans and their policies vs HPC/HPI. That's always struck me as a bit silly really especially as the Tories are massive proponents of higher lending, HPI, low interest rates and even the deregulation of the mortgage market to allow banks to do as they like. Only last year they were saying that the banks are responsible enough not to need regulation. After all, they say, the banks take the risk, not us.

Then today we have Osbourne interviewed on R4. How can anyone here want him in power after what he says? Incredible.

As bad as it might sound, I think we have a better chance with Brown and Darling than these two Eton boys who seem to have no idea whatsoever. Just listen to the interview.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsi...000/7747450.stm

Your class bias prevents you from engaging your brain.

New Labour have been a disaster for Britain.

  • Private pensions have been destroyed - the FTSE now is lower than when they came to power in 1997. Pension plans, endowment policies - all worthless.

  • The public sector is more bloated than ever before, with the creation of hundreds of thousands of 'non jobs'.

  • Public sector pensions are unfunded and unpayable.

  • A huge house price boom and credit binge has left the country, and the people, with the largest amount of debt in history.

  • Inflation figures have been massaged for years so that the huge growth in money supply was hidden - the money went into the asset bubble of housing

To summarise, the country is ruined. The young people in it will be paying for New Labour's insane spending and borrowing policies for the rest of their lives. They will also be up to their necks in debt all their lives, just for a roof over their heads.

Maybe you are not old enough to remember ... who said this and when?

"I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the recovery."

If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny.

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I see a lot of people berate Brown and Darling for their plans and their policies vs HPC/HPI. That's always struck me as a bit silly really especially as the Tories are massive proponents of higher lending, HPI, low interest rates and even the deregulation of the mortgage market to allow banks to do as they like. Only last year they were saying that the banks are responsible enough not to need regulation. After all, they say, the banks take the risk, not us.

Then today we have Osbourne interviewed on R4. How can anyone here want him in power after what he says? Incredible.

As bad as it might sound, I think we have a better chance with Brown and Darling than these two Eton boys who seem to have no idea whatsoever. Just listen to the interview.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsi...000/7747450.stm

We have a choice indeed.

Mortgage regulation failed in spades, so not sure we could be in any worse a position than we are. But this is just noise versus the main issue.

The biggest problem is cashflow - businesses can't get funding, they are getting paid late, they will go bust not because they deserve to but simply from cashflow issues. Its not about lending on property or cars, it is about loans to fund trade, financing working capital.

If we fiddle with consumer-friendly give-aways but don't ease the real immediate problem, we get job losses and unemployment - Labour have enacted policy to protect their public sector jobs for the boys, gerrymandering, voter feel-good, and what would embarrass the opposition, rather than what saves jobs. The cure isn't fluffy headlines. The cure isn't chucking money about we don't have. The answer isn't that the biggest giveaway is the best policy, the answer isn't always how much you borrow and spend. We'll have more stuff which needs help next year, most undoubtedly more important than getting consumers to spend more on imported goods for Christmas.

We need business to pull us out, and raising the cost of employment will hamper the recovery. We have consumers who are spent out. We have a low exchange rate, so promoting exports would be a good route forward - cures are ensuring companies can get trade finance, lowering the cost of employment, encouraging investment. So we have a choice. We can bung the imprudent consumer and tax employment and entrepreneurs harder, and keep chucking taxes at the politically correct bloated state institutions, or we can say that only by supporting and promoting business and employment and investment will we create jobs and generate tax through success. GO's idea of Govt insurance is underrated - it isn't forcing banks to lend, it is removing the need to de-risk and shrink which is killing us.

If the bung fails, we are in a far worse position having ratcheted up spending than if we don't. IF the markets don't believe it will work, it will punish us in a way that will cost more still. Sometimes you have to say no - this is Labour's problem, and always has been, it can't say no.

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Yup, I'd rather get on with cutting spending, paying back debts and balancing the books rather than going on a borrowing binge. It won't be pleasant, but it will be more pleasant than getting started after another few years of labour wrecking the economy.

Yes. OTOH its rather difficult to square that with George O saying he will force the banks to lend more. That means we borrow more. In other words his policy includes a borrowing binge.

No point in cheeering the bits we like and pretending he didn't say the bits we don't like - we get the whole package.

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G.O has humiliated himself and the Tory party.

Its Labour or nothing after that stupid move yesterday.

So you like Labour? Here is why I don't:

-Gold sold at a low

-Pensions robbed

-Endless stealth taxes

-Increasing NI and income taxes

-Truly massive public and private debt

-Housing boom and bust

-Stock market boom and bust

-High unemployment (especially if you add the people on incapacity benefits)

-Poor education system (but worthlessly inflated grades), increased illiteracy and innumeracy

-Poor health service (but doctors earn far more for doing less)

-Bloated, useless public sector full of ideological jobs that produce no useful service (Labour voters though!)

-Sharp increases in violent crime despite Jackie Smith's best efforts to fiddle the numbers

-Uncontrolled immigration (to no economic benefit according to the last Lords report)

Osbourne or anybody would be better IMO... :angry:

Scooter

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The Tories are in a difficult positions politically.

There is no easy way out of this depression but pretending you can spend your way out of it is more politically attractive than saying the truth that living standards are going to fall considerably and that it will be a long hard slog back to an productive economy rather than one based on debt fuelled consumption and asset bubbles. Labour are pretending you can resuscitate the corpse.

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I see a lot of people berate Brown and Darling for their plans and their policies vs HPC/HPI. That's always struck me as a bit silly really especially as the Tories are massive proponents of higher lending, HPI, low interest rates and even the deregulation of the mortgage market to allow banks to do as they like. Only last year they were saying that the banks are responsible enough not to need regulation. After all, they say, the banks take the risk, not us.

Then today we have Osbourne interviewed on R4. How can anyone here want him in power after what he says? Incredible.

As bad as it might sound, I think we have a better chance with Brown and Darling than these two Eton boys who seem to have no idea whatsoever. Just listen to the interview.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsi...000/7747450.stm

How can slowing public spending, putting raising taxes and generally trying to get debt down instead of borrwoing like crazy be worse than buy now pay later Brown.

They haven't done anything. ANy reductions they have made will almost certainly end up in the bank as people pay down debt to cover the tax rises that are to come.

If the conservatives have no solution how about 10 billio of spending they will save us by cancelling Idenity cards.

If they stood todayu on a freezing public spending until the debt is paid off policy and nothign else I would vote for them.

Whne youa re borke you STOP SPENDING, simple as. While we are at it we could start reducing troup number in Iraq as this is not coming out of Defence spending but paid for by the drirect government.

Oh... and heres an idea. If we go into negative inflation we could give the MP's a pay cut.

Thank god they dumped that stupid promise to stay with labours spending plans.

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Yes. OTOH its rather difficult to square that with George O saying he will force the banks to lend more. That means we borrow more. In other words his policy includes a borrowing binge.

No point in cheeering the bits we like and pretending he didn't say the bits we don't like - we get the whole package.

Business will always need short term cash. This is what they are focusing. This has dried up and is causing huge problems. THis is not a debt binge but the ability for business to carry on as usual. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. If the hosrt term funding market does not unstick it cause huge cash flow issues.

He is not sugegsting all go out and crap out our credit cards.

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Business will always need short term cash. This is what they are focusing. This has dried up and is causing huge problems. THis is not a debt binge but the ability for business to carry on as usual. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. If the hosrt term funding market does not unstick it cause huge cash flow issues.

This coming weekend is the last payday before Xmas for many. If their bosses call them in to say "no money, couldn't get a short term loan to cover the payroll" there'd be mayhem. Same again for those that are paid just before Xmas (bit of a December treat for some I believe).

Some companies borrow in the short term just to cover their payroll before they get paid from their customers ... who are increasingly delaying paying.

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This afternoon I had an interesting conversation with a Tokyo based economist who experienced the collapse here in Japan. He pointed out that in the problems Britain and others are facing now can only be solved by fiscal stimulus. Monetary policy, he said, won't work when companies and people are too indebted. Even if its cheap people and companies won't want to borrow and banks won't want to lend. The only option to avoid a deep recession, he said, is fiscal stimulus. That's why in Japan, despite land prices falling over 80% from the peak, its GDP remained above pre-Bubble levels. Of course, to achieve that cost a fortune.

Then I listen to this interview and Osbourne's line: "We have to use monetary policy".

Edited by i_godzuki
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I guess a lot of you are too young or live down south to remember the full force of thatcherism that was unleashed on us and the effects are still blighting communities to this day....but it does not make what labour has done right..

Actually I fear the coming carnage will so to speak give those in the south a taste of Thatcherite medecine. Not that I'd wish that in anyone.

The move to a service based economy... i.e. one that produces ****** all leaves all of those in those industries vulnerable. All those huge business parks in the SE will see job losses. Big employers will move as much as they can offshore to save costs. Communities will be destroyed. New generations of sink estates will be created from failed BTL developments. The South is about to get what the North got 30 years ago. But with better weather.

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New Labour have been a disaster for Britain.

Not much to argue about there. Just the one quibble: the tories needed the Boot.

[*]Private pensions have been destroyed

Not Labour's fault. The pensions system they inherited was itself a fraud.

[*]The public sector is more bloated than ever before, with the creation of hundreds of thousands of 'non jobs'.

Probably half-true. That is to say, true only if you include privatised but taxpayer-funded non-jobs.

[*]Public sector pensions are unfunded and unpayable.

Failure of every government to fix that since, at a guess, the 1960s.

[*]A huge house price boom and credit binge has left the country, and the people, with the largest amount of debt in history.

Yep. They're firmly to blame for that (though the tories are complicit).

[*]Inflation figures have been massaged for years so that the huge growth in money supply was hidden - the money went into the asset bubble of housing

Failure to measure inflation. Another problem that's much older than New Labour: the 1980s boom was the same. The fact that it's happened so much worse this time is not in itself their fault: it was the rise of cheap imports particularly from China. But that makes them all the more culpable for failing to do anything.

To summarise, the country is ruined. The young people in it will be paying for New Labour's insane spending and borrowing policies for the rest of their lives.

The young are the most likely to be in a position to emigrate, and to be welcomed elsewhere. OK, some will choose to stay, and some will be too useless to be wanted anywhere, but overall it may be the middle-aged who suffer more. That is, those who rely on hard work and don't have wealth.

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So you like Labour? Here is why I don't:

-Gold sold at a low

-Pensions robbed

-Endless stealth taxes

-Increasing NI and income taxes

-Truly massive public and private debt

-Housing boom and bust

-Stock market boom and bust

-High unemployment (especially if you add the people on incapacity benefits)

-Poor education system (but worthlessly inflated grades), increased illiteracy and innumeracy

-Poor health service (but doctors earn far more for doing less)

-Bloated, useless public sector full of ideological jobs that produce no useful service (Labour voters though!)

-Sharp increases in violent crime despite Jackie Smith's best efforts to fiddle the numbers

-Uncontrolled immigration (to no economic benefit according to the last Lords report)

Osbourne or anybody would be better IMO... :angry:

Scooter

funny that i can remember under the tories

over 3 million unemployed

destruction of heavy british industry/manufacturing

a health service in a mess

housing boom and boost

stockmarket boom and bust

thatcher selling off council housing stock, and not rebuilding new council stock ( starting this obseesion with owning )

making us a nation of shopkeepers

destruction of community spirit

crumbling schools

introduction of stealth taxes

lack of investment in public transport

easy expensive credit ( lets not forget where it all started )

poll tax

no minimum wage

i dont agree labour borrowing all this money but the tories dont offer anything different.

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Business will always need short term cash. This is what they are focusing. This has dried up and is causing huge problems. THis is not a debt binge but the ability for business to carry on as usual. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. If the hosrt term funding market does not unstick it cause huge cash flow issues.

He is not sugegsting all go out and crap out our credit cards.

Don't really agree.

Why help a poorly run small businesses to carry on as usual. My wife works for one, so badly run it deserves to go under. Any special favours given to it would simply end up in the owners pocket and be splurged as if it were credit card money. In the past the owners used money borrowed on the business to extend their houses, buy cars and take multiple holidays. So its the same as a debt binge to consumers, just selecting which consumers.

I know its a Tory mantra but I see no reason to provide special favours to small business owners. The businesses that are worthwhile will survive without it.

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Guest pioneer31
I see a lot of people berate Brown and Darling for their plans and their policies vs HPC/HPI. That's always struck me as a bit silly really especially as the Tories are massive proponents of higher lending, HPI, low interest rates and even the deregulation of the mortgage market to allow banks to do as they like. Only last year they were saying that the banks are responsible enough not to need regulation. After all, they say, the banks take the risk, not us.

Then today we have Osbourne interviewed on R4. How can anyone here want him in power after what he says? Incredible.

As bad as it might sound, I think we have a better chance with Brown and Darling than these two Eton boys who seem to have no idea whatsoever. Just listen to the interview.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsi...000/7747450.stm

I look at history

Regardless of anything else....

Labour govt's always leave the Economy in ruins

Tory govt's tend not to.

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Actually I fear the coming carnage will so to speak give those in the south a taste of Thatcherite medecine. Not that I'd wish that in anyone.

The move to a service based economy... i.e. one that produces ****** all leaves all of those in those industries vulnerable. All those huge business parks in the SE will see job losses. Big employers will move as much as they can offshore to save costs. Communities will be destroyed. New generations of sink estates will be created from failed BTL developments. The South is about to get what the North got 30 years ago. But with better weather.

We had years of attempted solutions in the 1970s along the lines of what we are now getting, and it failed. Labour held its hands up and said it doesn't work. Thatcher took over a totally wrecked economy - we were the sick man of Europe - we had loss making industry, no investment, unemployment, inflation, high interest rates, power cuts, strikes, obscene taxes and failing public services. The cure was never going to easy or pleasant. Life would be much easier if there was a simple painless solution to every problem, and I'm surprised anyone who belieives the politician who says he can.

Many of us are old enough to remember the 1980s, not many of us the 1970s other than as children. We have a distorted view, we forget how bad it was before Thatcher took over.

There is no painfree way out this time either, we can pretend we can borrow and spend and it'll be ok, but we know it won't work. Like your argument that the South is stuffed from a reliance on services, the economy is stuffed if it doesn't focus on business, and instead thinks the public secotr is a wealth generator - it consumes it does not create. And it will indeed be worse in the South. Do you think Labour will bung money at the South when it struggles, but where it has no votes and will win no seats even if it does bung money? I personally suspect it won't.

Japan didn't do the fiscal stimulus, but then it didn't have the deficit and it could have spent earlier, so different starting point and it had more opportunity - when it did up spending it didn't work. It also failed to clear the system up, it allowed bad loans to linger - most economists attribute much of the length of the downturn to the failure to allow the system to vent itself of the bad and excessive lending.

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Guest pioneer31

Interesting to read people's opinions of the evil Tory govt of the 80's

What do you think Labour would have done?

It would have been all the same but cost 5 times as much.

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